New hard game comes out. Idiot press wants easy mode.

[I can't enter my old name]

But Normal difficulties are already slapped together and poorly balanced to begin with. Being able to "fix" it to your preferences as an option is only a good thing. MODs are rather popular for that reason.

Well in that case, whatever difficulty that most players would pick on their first playthrough is supposed to be the least slapped together. We don't need articles every time a difficult popular game has only one difficultly or only N and H/NG+. If it doesn't have one it doesn't have one.

I was never against easy mode. Not being able to beat a game that you paid for is like getting a bug that always crashes the game for a tiny amount of people. For those people, they paid full price for half of a game. You usually have some recourse, like guides, OP builds, mods, exploits, trainers, or other people's save files. Unfortunately most of that is the community's labor instead of devs, but at least you should be able to beat most popular games.

Cheat codes solves all of the dev's obligations, and makes sure that even non-gamers can beat your game. So does detailed difficulty options with sliders. Easy mode for hard games is going to make people play your game and possibly have a worse experience than everyone else. It's not the optimal solution.

 

[Trunkage]

Also, you say integrity, I say marketing ploy. I remember many people complaining about Dark Souls 3, because they enjoyed Dark Souls 1 for its story and it just happened to come with a side of good gameplay. Now, FROM was focusing on difficulty because that's how it seared into some people's minds. They only focussed on that and not the story OR Gameplay, which has alienated a bunch of people. There's a podcast called Bonfire Side Chat that detailed this constantly. I'll give you that FROM might have had integrity for DS1, but by they time DS3 rolled around, all that integrity was gone for a quick buck.

What I remember about DS1 at launch is a bunch of people complaining that the game was too hard and had no story and they had no idea what was going on or what they needed to do. The story of Dark Souls was really only figured out months after the game's release, and there's still debate about that story to this day. The community of people who pieced it together weren't casual players. The game requires a fair bit of obsessiveness on the part of the player to figure out the story, to read all of the item descriptions, to figure out the context clues, and I don't think that obsessiveness exists in people who find the game unenjoyable due to its difficulty.

If the game had been easier would those people who complained about the game being too hard have figured out the story? Probably not. The people who found the game too hard were people who refused to change the way they played the game, didn't read item descriptions, and didn't really pay attention to environmental queues, and got frustrated by having to run through the same areas over and over again. The story of Dark Souls is tied into all of the design decisions, including the difficulty, and the people who couldn't gel with the gameplay weren't going to be enjoying the story if the difficulty was removed because they still wouldn't put the work in to find it.

Trust me, I know, I bounced off the game multiple times before it finally clicked with me. If the combat in the game had been easier and allowed me to just cruise through it, I would have figured out nothing, and then complained that there wasn't a story and that the whole game is a confusing mess of poor design decisions because on the surface that is exactly what it seems like.

Remember the Solaire theory? I thought that was stretch before it was denounced. Then a whole bunch of people cried over the Nameless King reveal. Some people are good at making connections but sometimes those connections are non existent

Now, what do you mean by 'game was easier'. If you mean that some people would have done it on easy and thus not get the whole story, I'd be fine with that. If you don't put the extra effort in, you might not get all the story.

If you mean having difficulty modes would have ruined Dark Souls, I completely disagree. You could do Dark Souls completely Co-Op which is pretty much easy mode. It wouldn't have ruined anything.

I'm a guy that only put things on hard mode. I cant imagine the guys who put the story together would have gone for easy. Even if they did, they'd still pick up the clues to patch the story together. Becuase difficulty modes don't delete content.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

But Normal difficulties are already slapped together and poorly balanced to begin with. Being able to "fix" it to your preferences as an option is only a good thing. MODs are rather popular for that reason.

Well in that case, whatever difficulty that most players would pick on their first playthrough is supposed to be the least slapped together. We don't need articles every time a difficult popular game has only one difficultly or only N and H/NG+. If it doesn't have one it doesn't have one.

I was never against easy mode. Not being able to beat a game that you paid for is like getting a bug that always crashes the game for a tiny amount of people. For those people, they paid full price for half of a game. You usually have some recourse, like guides, OP builds, mods, exploits, trainers, or other people's save files. Unfortunately most of that is the community's labor instead of devs, but at least you should be able to beat most popular games.

Cheat codes solves all of the dev's obligations, and makes sure that even non-gamers can beat your game. So does detailed difficulty options with sliders. Easy mode for hard games is going to make people play your game and possibly have a worse experience than everyone else. It's not the optimal solution.

I'm not at all saying a game MUST have an easy difficulty, I'm saying there's nothing wrong if it does. Most games are just really poorly balanced so having an easy and hard difficulty gives gamers 2 more chances for having a better experience as normal probably isn't great either. God of War's difficulty progression is the exact opposite of good balance/design, it's way too hard and damage spongy early on and becomes joke easy over the last 3rd so at least the gamer can play the first 3rd on easy, play the middle on normal, and play the last 3rd on hard. Difficulties are far from the best solutions but it's better than nothing. The best solutions are giving the gamer the suite of tools devs have when they make the game like how sports games have all those sliders, Dishonored has tons of options (including AI options), and Invisible Inc. has so many options that allow you to basically make your own difficulty. It's not like it's hard to do either, all devs have to do is create a user-friendly interface for their toolkit that already exists.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Also, you say integrity, I say marketing ploy. I remember many people complaining about Dark Souls 3, because they enjoyed Dark Souls 1 for its story and it just happened to come with a side of good gameplay. Now, FROM was focusing on difficulty because that's how it seared into some people's minds. They only focussed on that and not the story OR Gameplay, which has alienated a bunch of people. There's a podcast called Bonfire Side Chat that detailed this constantly. I'll give you that FROM might have had integrity for DS1, but by they time DS3 rolled around, all that integrity was gone for a quick buck.

What I remember about DS1 at launch is a bunch of people complaining that the game was too hard and had no story and they had no idea what was going on or what they needed to do. The story of Dark Souls was really only figured out months after the game's release, and there's still debate about that story to this day. The community of people who pieced it together weren't casual players. The game requires a fair bit of obsessiveness on the part of the player to figure out the story, to read all of the item descriptions, to figure out the context clues, and I don't think that obsessiveness exists in people who find the game unenjoyable due to its difficulty.

If the game had been easier would those people who complained about the game being too hard have figured out the story? Probably not. The people who found the game too hard were people who refused to change the way they played the game, didn't read item descriptions, and didn't really pay attention to environmental queues, and got frustrated by having to run through the same areas over and over again. The story of Dark Souls is tied into all of the design decisions, including the difficulty, and the people who couldn't gel with the gameplay weren't going to be enjoying the story if the difficulty was removed because they still wouldn't put the work in to find it.

Trust me, I know, I bounced off the game multiple times before it finally clicked with me. If the combat in the game had been easier and allowed me to just cruise through it, I would have figured out nothing, and then complained that there wasn't a story and that the whole game is a confusing mess of poor design decisions because on the surface that is exactly what it seems like.

Remember the Solaire theory? I thought that was stretch before it was denounced. Then a whole bunch of people cried over the Nameless King reveal. Some people are good at making connections but sometimes those connections are non existent

Now, what do you mean by 'game was easier'. If you mean that some people would have done it on easy and thus not get the whole story, I'd be fine with that. If you don't put the extra effort in, you might not get all the story.

If you mean having difficulty modes would have ruined Dark Souls, I completely disagree. You could do Dark Souls completely Co-Op which is pretty much easy mode. It wouldn't have ruined anything.

I'm a guy that only put things on hard mode. I cant imagine the guys who put the story together would have gone for easy. Even if they did, they'd still pick up the clues to patch the story together. Becuase difficulty modes don't delete content.

My point was that the original draw that people had to Dark Souls was the unique and challenging gameplay, not the story. People didn't understand the story until well after the game had come out and had already gotten popular.

If the game didn't have the reputation of being difficult and challenging to players I don't think nearly as many people would have become quite as enamored with it, and if that hadn't happened I don't think that people would make as big a deal out of the characters and the story.

I also don't think that Dark Souls would have gotten its original reputation of being a hard game if it had difficulty selection on the start menu. I would argue that there are MANY games where the hardest difficulty setting is much more challenging than going through Dark Souls, but none of them have the same reputation of difficulty that Dark Souls has.

The fact that Dark Souls is a challenging game, and the fact that it doesn't have difficulty options created a community of people who obsessed over beating the game, came together to figure out tips and tricks to deal with its various challenges, and that same community is the community that ended up piecing together the story. The story in Dark Souls is interesting because interpreting it was a community event, and that community would not exist in the form that it does if the game didn't force people to overthink how the game works as a community.

Yes, an easy mode would not delete the content that's there, but it would provide a different experience to the player, which would fracture the community perception of the game, and therefore change the community's interaction with it.

And like you said, there already basically is an easy mode in the game, it's the ability to summon NPCs and other players. The game does have a built in easy mode, it's just not something that's accessible as an option from the start menu. I don't think that having ways of making the game easier are bad, but I do think that having a separate selectable "easy mode" would be antithetical to the Dark Souls experience.

 

[Trunkage]

My point was that the original draw that people had to Dark Souls was the unique and challenging gameplay, not the story. People didn't understand the story until well after the game had come out and had already gotten popular.

My point is that this didn't really happen. It may have been what drew YOU and quite a lot of people. Its not what drew all. Some people liked the story, even if it only left them with more questions. Some like the monster design, or level design and how most areas curled back. Many liked that it seemed that this world looked liveable and you could try to piece together how the average citizen might have lived. I personally did hear it was hard, but that was not the selling point. "You need to go into this game blind as the world that's set up is incredible" was what sold me. I definitely didn't stick around for difficulty.

Also, because you're really not getting this, WHO CARES WHAT OTHER PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCE IS. If they get a crap experience because they 'went easy', why is it YOUR problem?

Also, you're saying, instead of having the Dirty Hipster experience, you're not allowed any experience at all. What's even crazier is the fact that no two Dark Soul journey's are remotely the same. I don't want your experience of Dark Souls. I want my own.

 

[CritialGaming]

Also, because you're really not getting this, WHO CARES WHAT OTHER PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCE IS. If they get a crap experience because they 'went easy', why is it YOUR problem?

To me it would be like watching a movie that is hugely popular and people love. Whatever that movie is right?

Then someone decides to watch it in a language they don't understand and when people around them talk about how great the movie is, that person says "I didn't think it was very good. I don't get it. I dunno wtf ya'll thought was so great."

Well why did you not "get" it? They watched it in a language that they didn't understand and it ruined their experience of the film. But that was their choice right? Them watching the film in basically gibberish didn't effect anyone who saw the movie and loved the movie. But it did rob the person who watched in the film differently of the proper experience and as a result they didn't have the same enjoyment of the film that everyone else saw.

When people tell them to go watch it in English, that person might say something like they don't like the actor's voices and prefer to hear it in a different dub. Well fine, but can anyone argue that they are missing out on something great because they want to do things their way?

That's the same thing as a Souls easy mode. Everyone is right, playing on easy or with cheats or whatever wouldn't have any effect on their experience with the game. But it would drastically change the experience for the player who does drop it down a level. In conversations they will not be able to share the same experiences outside of the lore and world. They simply couldn't, even if it would still pose a challenge for them they couldn't compare the two modes.

And that's a damn shame.

Look difficulty modes are great and they fit into most games as part of the way the game plays. But Souls games and Rogue-like games simply do not have that option. Their challenge and difficulty are core parts of the experience, and changing it fundamentally changes the experience. Regardless of the fact that it doesn't affect other players, it does affect the player doing it whether they realize it or not. Or whether or not they even care.

 

[CaitSeith]

But Souls games and Rogue-like games simply do not have that option.

Yikes! Somebody call FTL: Faster than Light! Tell them they are doing rogue-like wrong!

EDIT:

they couldn't compare the two modes

I call that BULLSHIT! Easy mode is like a gateway drug: once you get used to it, it becomes tempting to try something more HARDCORE!.

 

[Kerg3927]

I care because I have this skill that's apparently becoming a superpower nowadays, the ability to care about people who aren't in the same circles that I am.

So this is all about look at me, look at how virtuous and superior I am! It's all about you snobbishly looking down your nose at other Souls fans. That's just great.

As for the rest of your post, again, I don't care. How many times do I have to say it? I don't care about people who feel "excluded" from playing the Souls games, and I applaud From Software for saying no to all the nonsense being spouted by people like you, and I applaud them for holding strong and refusing to be bullied. Instead, they are smartly focusing on pleasing their core demographic and not tampering with their current business model, which has been hugely successful. And I think that's the right thing to do for their fans, and more importantly for them, it's the right thing to do for the health of their company. Developers shouldn't tamper too much with a winning formula. And you cannot dispute that the Souls formula has been a huge success.

Again, like From Software, I don't care that there are people out there who don't enjoy the games in their current state. It would be nice if developers could be allowed to create a niche game that caters to a specific type of gamer without people like you losing their shit and using it as an opportunity to virtue signal and bully people. People can be so mean.

 

[CaitSeith]

snip

Citation needed. Otherwise you'll have to admit you're just projecting and putting words on From Software's mouth.

 

[Erttheking]

I care because I have this skill that's apparently becoming a superpower nowadays, the ability to care about people who aren't in the same circles that I am.

So this is all about look at me, look at how virtuous and superior I am! It's all about you snobbishly looking down your nose at other Souls fans. That's just great.

As for the rest of your post, again, I don't care. How many times do I have to say it? I don't care about people who feel "excluded" from playing the Souls games, and I applaud From Software for saying no to all the nonsense being spouted by people like you, and I applaud them for holding strong and refusing to be bullied. Instead, they are smartly focusing on pleasing their core demographic and not tampering with their current business model, which has been hugely successful. And I think that's the right thing to do for their fans, and more importantly for them, it's the right thing to do for the health of their company. Developers shouldn't tamper too much with a winning formula. And you cannot dispute that the Souls formula has been a huge success.

Again, like From Software, I don't care that there are people out there who don't enjoy the games in their current state. It would be nice if developers could be allowed to create a niche game that caters to a specific type of gamer without people like you losing their shit and using it as an opportunity to virtue signal and bully people. People can be so mean.

You don't get to talk about people being mean after all the utterly spiteful shit you've said in this thread. Remember when you thought people who wanted an easy mode were jealous of how good Dark Souls players were? You don't get to talk after that. Tell me. After that, were you expecting me to be polite and courteous about the Dark Souls fans you're apparently speaking for?

Oh, am I bullying the poor multi-million dollar corporation by suggesting a way that their games can be improved? And here I thought bullying would be organizing harassment campaigns, doxxing the director of the games, sending them hate mail. You know, stuff that's actually a problem. But I guess suggesting ways that their games can be improved is bullying now. Oh wait...yeah that's right. Get back to me when you have evidence of actual bullying that isn't just "person thinks change to a video game would be good and I think it would ruin everything forever. Therefore he is a bully." That isn't how bullying works.

Also, niche?

https://www.shacknews.com/article/94599/dark-souls-3-sales-reach-3-million-units-dark-souls-series-shipments-reach-13-million-units

The series isn't niche. Not anymore. Unless you want to tell me that Dead Space, F.E.A.R., Metro 2033, Crysis, and Killzone are niche.

Look difficulty modes are great and they fit into most games as part of the way the game plays. But Souls games and Rogue-like games simply do not have that option.

*Whistles*

https://guides.gamepressure.com/dead_cells/guide.asp?ID=46068

 

[CritialGaming]

*Whistles*

https://guides.gamepressure.com/dead_cells/guide.asp?ID=46068

HARDER! It has HARDER modes!

Also "To unlock other difficulty levels, you first need to beat the final boss of the game." Meaning the game makes you play and BEAT it before you can change the difficulty and only harder modes are available. Which is similiar to Souls which increases the difficulty in NG+1 through NG+7.

By that argument everyone already plays Dark Souls on Easy mode to begin with. And the whole thread is moot.

 

[Erttheking]

*Whistles*

https://guides.gamepressure.com/dead_cells/guide.asp?ID=46068

HARDER! It has HARDER modes!

Also "To unlock other difficulty levels, you first need to beat the final boss of the game." Meaning the game makes you play and BEAT it before you can change the difficulty and only harder modes are available. Which is similiar to Souls which increases the difficulty in NG+1 through NG+7.

By that argument everyone already plays Dark Souls on Easy mode to begin with. And the whole thread is moot.

You did not say that rouge likes do not have easier difficulty modes. You said that they did not have difficulty modes period.

And you're ignoring CaitSeith's response to that comment, I can't help but notice.

 

[Kerg3927]

snip

Citation needed. Otherwise you'll have to admit you're just projecting and putting words on From Software's mouth.

Did I quote anybody? I simply stated my observations of their game design formula, which hasn't changed much, despite the complaining, and for that, I applauded them.

 

[CritialGaming]

*Whistles*

https://guides.gamepressure.com/dead_cells/guide.asp?ID=46068

HARDER! It has HARDER modes!

Also "To unlock other difficulty levels, you first need to beat the final boss of the game." Meaning the game makes you play and BEAT it before you can change the difficulty and only harder modes are available. Which is similiar to Souls which increases the difficulty in NG+1 through NG+7.

By that argument everyone already plays Dark Souls on Easy mode to begin with. And the whole thread is moot.

You did not say that rouge likes do not have easier difficulty modes. You said that they did not have difficulty modes period.

And you're ignoring CaitSeith's response to that comment, I can't help but notice.

This thread is about Easy modes. CaitSeith gave one example of modes in Rogue-likes the except only PROVES the rule. The point still stands, Enter the Gungeon, Rogue Legacy, Slay the Spire, and more and more don't have difficulty modes, unless you want to count NG+'s and if you do, then like I said Fromsoft games already have and "easy" mode.

 

[Kerg3927]

You don't get to talk about people being mean after all the utterly spiteful shit you've said in this thread. Remember when you thought people who wanted an easy mode were jealous of how good Dark Souls players were? You don't get to talk after that. Tell me. After that, were you expecting me to be polite and courteous about the Dark Souls fans you're apparently speaking for?

Oh, am I bullying the poor multi-million dollar corporation by suggesting a way that their games can be improved? And here I thought bullying would be organizing harassment campaigns, doxxing the director of the games, sending them hate mail. You know, stuff that's actually a problem. But I guess suggesting ways that their games can be improved is bullying now. Oh wait...yeah that's right. Get back to me when you have evidence of actual bullying that isn't just "person thinks change to a video game would be good and I think it would ruin everything forever. Therefore he is a bully." That isn't how bullying works.

Despite your self-righteous tone, don't ever forget that throughout this entire thread, I have been the one on the defensive, and you have been the one on the attack, wanting to force things to change to your way. You are the clear aggressor here. You are the one who refuses to agree to disagree, as I have offered multiple times. And yes, that can be a form of bullying, because you are not "suggesting" anything. You are accusing the company and the fans of its games of being immoral just because they don't adhere to your nonsensical ideas, and you refuse to let it go.

Also, niche?

https://www.shacknews.com/article/94599/dark-souls-3-sales-reach-3-million-units-dark-souls-series-shipments-reach-13-million-units

The series isn't niche. Not anymore. Unless you want to tell me that Dead Space, F.E.A.R., Metro 2033, Crysis, and Killzone are niche.

So it's become a big niche. That only supports what I've been saying, that their design formula has been extremely successful, and they would be stupid to change it.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

So in other words, they don't have easy modes except for all the ones that do. If you want another example of a rogue lite with an easy mode, I can bring up Into the Breach, Dungeons of Dredmor, Darkest Dungeon (despite the quibbling on the issue, Radiant Mode does indeed make things easier and the sky didn't fall when it got it, nor did the sky fall when the ability to turn off corpses was introduced). Also while it doesn't have an easy mode, Don't Starve lets you fiddle with all of its settings to your heart's content, which can lead to a much easier game.

Snip

You were on the defensive after I replied to your post when you compared people who wanted an easy mode to the man who committed the first murder out of jealousy and spite in a thread where the OP talked about how people who wanted an easy mode were idiots. I'm flabbergasted that you said that and now you're trying to claim that you're a hapless victim. I have not said anything about From Software the company. I've simply said that quite a few Dark Souls fans take themselves far too seriously. Because they do. Oh, and I don't change any of my ideas? Yeah, I admit that. I'm just scratching my head as to how that's something to accuse me of in this conversation. Please point out any ideas that you changed during this debate.

By definition, a niche is a small, specialized section of the population. "Big niche" is an oxymoron.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Still at it, huh? Well, a wise man once said:

At the end of the day, no side of this ?debate? is gaining any ground save for what?s collecting in the treads of our shoes as we dig in our heels. No one?s mind is changing, but I think we can agree the reality ultimately is going to be somewhere in the middle: not all games will get [easy modes] and those that do will not be mountains of ruin threatening the ideals of purity, honor and nobility that have come to define the gaming industry?

 

[Kerg3927]

You were on the defensive after I replied to your post when you compared people who wanted an easy mode to the man who committed the first murder out of jealousy and spite in a thread where the OP talked about how people who wanted an easy mode were idiots.

I've already said I'm not religious, and thus I don't believe that Cain committed the first murder, because I don't believe he ever existed. It's just a fable to me, like The Tortoise and the Hare, and I only used it because it's the most recognized fable/metaphor about jealousy. And when I used that metaphor I wasn't referring to you or anyone else in this thread, apparently, because all of you have said that you have played and beaten the Souls games, so you're obviously not jealous. So why are you so offended by it?

I was talking about those hypothetical people who are too bad to complete the Souls series of games, and I say hypothetical, because I don't think I've ever met any of these poor people you are supposedly defending. Do they even exist? You did mention a girl that you knew, so I guess there's one, if you are to be believed. But as far as I know, none of those people are actually complaining. It may be just people like you who are complaining, for whatever reason. If these people do exist, do they even know that you spend your days angrily arguing on their behalf? Do they even care? Or are you just using them as an excuse to attack Souls fans, because you think you are morally superior to them?

I'm flabbergasted that you said that and now you're trying to claim that you're a hapless victim. I have not said anything about From Software the company. I've simply said that quite a few Dark Souls fans take themselves far too seriously. Because they do.

I am not a victim. I merely pointed out that I have been on the defensive, because you seem to be implying that it's the other way around. I'm just trying to defend the status quo for a very successful game series, and you're the one attacking that status quo, and implying that it's wrong and immoral.

Oh, and I don't change any of my ideas? Yeah, I admit that. I'm just scratching my head as to how that's something to accuse me of in this conversation. Please point out any ideas that you changed during this debate.

I gave up long ago in this thread trying to change your ideas. As I said, we have very different views on this issue, and it's pretty clear that they are not going to change. I would like to just agree to disagree. And every time I try to do that, you goad me back into it, saying I'm not addressing your points.

By definition, a niche is a small, specialized section of the population. "Big niche" is an oxymoron.

Fair enough. By definition, it's not a niche anymore, although it started out as one. What does that matter? If a niche game designed for a niche market becomes too successful and sells too many copies, it can no longer continue to cater only to its target market? Now it has to expand its considerations and become more inclusive of others? Why?

 

[Kerg3927]

Still at it, huh? Well, a wise man once said:

At the end of the day, no side of this "debate" is gaining any ground save for what's collecting in the treads of our shoes as we dig in our heels. No one's mind is changing, but I think we can agree the reality ultimately is going to be somewhere in the middle: not all games will get [easy modes] and those that do will not be mountains of ruin threatening the ideals of purity, honor and nobility that have come to define the gaming industry...

... and those that don't [get easy modes] will not be bastions of evil where throngs of poor, forgotten about, low-skilled gamers gather outside the walls in their cardboard huts hoping to one day get a peek inside.

 

[Worgen]

Ok, how the hell does this thread have 10 pages of replies when there is no good reason not to have an easy mode on any single player game out there?