Nice Guys Suck

[Kopikatsu]

Edit: Also, you have a sunlight allergy? You poor thing. That's like winning the genetic anti-lottery.

Nah, there are people allergic to water, hemophilia is much worse, etc. It's kind of sad that the bright side is 'Think of how much more HORRIBLE your life could have been!'.

It's more of a hypersensitivity reaction than a real allergy, though. If I'm out in the sun for longer than 20-ish minutes, my skin starts to flake off. If I'm wet and in the sun for more than 20-ish minutes, I can peel my skin off in strips. (You have three layers of skin. First is dead skin cells, second is outer skin, and third is inner skin. (Totally the scientific names for them) My thing affects second layer. The more you know!)

Edit: Aaaaand I deleted the main part of this post. Wonderful.

I'm pretty sure this is some higher power saying 'GO TO SLEEP ALREADY'.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Double Post. Ignore.

 

[Cephei Mordred]

I'm not a Nice Guy(tm) but I may be mistaken for one because I think both sides are wrong.

I believe that we can have "Nice Guy(tm)s are entitled little fucks who need to harden the fuck up" without having "Be confident and awesome or gtfo or at least lower your standards."

It just troubles me that women can plainly say that guys have to be a certain way to be worthy of the best but men are essentially blamed for when women have body image issues, etc.

Either both genders should be required to love unconditionally, or both genders should be freely allowed their shallowness.

And sure, I'm pretty much the stereotypical loser 'man-child' who still lives with his parents, but let's say I did become more confident, successful, and awesome, and I got more female attention. How would I know they loved me for me and not for my greatness.

Long story short: don't love me because I'm beautiful.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Hah, fun idea. Though, seriously, what's wrong with hats?

 

[Smooth Operator]

When both sides seem to genuinely see themselves as a victim, it seems like something is going on that no one is getting.

How about this: Nice guy becomes friends with a girl. She starts asking him for favors because he is so nice, he agrees. She starts thinking of him as more and more nice, and he starts falling in love with her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and just asks him to do more stuff for her. He becomes resentful of doing all of the stuff for her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and when he gets sick of it and snaps she thinks it is coming out of nowhere. Both people become bitter and are convinced that the other was secretly a jerk all along

The problem is with him, but he isn't some kind of Cartoonish evil manipulator. Does that seem reasonable, or am I just completely off-base?

That is usually how the Nice Guy(TM) starts, the timid guy/girl falls for their friend but is too shy to act on it, so they keep standing on the sidelines while the friend has all the fun.
Impending bitterns in 3... 2... 1... Why you no love me?!

I was there a couple of times, and the thing people need to realize is others are not responsible for your emotions, you deal with them in your own accord and take responsibility for it.
And just because a friendship works does not mean a relationship can, there is a whole bucket of different criteria.

The end split is will you be guided by bitterness or understanding.

 

[Condiments]

I agree wholeheartedly with the article even though it will hardly do any good in the end for this debate(Even though the whole, GOOO SUPERNOVAHHHHH! was a tad overboard). Some guys are just going to have to suck it up when it comes to 'courting' women.

Though, lets face it, the 'Nice Guy' syndrome is an inevitable by-product of gender dynamics. There will always be nice guys if the first move is predominately something a man is suppose to do. Assholes/arrogant guys sweep up women because they practically bubble over-confidence and have no problems asking women out. Less assertive/decisive men get left in the dust due to inaction, because getting women doesn't work like that.

You could rage fruitlessly against the machine, or try and change yourself a bit. Getting into friendships with every women you're potentially interested in is way too time consuming, and pointless. Gauge interest level, ask them on a couple of walks/lunches, and go from there. Sure it sucks for us select less out-going types(who are interesting on a less surface level mind you), but the world doesn't care.

 

[Carnagath]

Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead.

This quote probably gave me eye cancer. You know, like a supernova would.

 

[xyrafhoan]

Ah yes, nice guys vs Nice Guys (tm). Honestly, I probably would have dated a lot more in high school if any of my friends had asked me out, because they were genuinely nice, but they were too introverted to ask and I am also an introvert. On the other hand, I was damn upset when one of the guys I liked was "nice", but really just wanted to be friends with benefits.

Oh well, I've been going 5 years strong with a genuinely nice guy. We met playing Ragnarok Online and a good chunk of the playerbase hated him because of his ego, but hey, we had fun playing the game together and eventually he decided to get a job to make enough money to see me in real life. And that he did! And he's probably the most beloved person where he works, too. He's got passion. He tells great stories. And he cooks! Not only does he cook, but it tastes way better than what my parents cook and he's got the guts to try anything. His gutsiness is essential when my family is half-Chinese and I seem to have inherited all the quirky tastes from that side.

This article is spot on when it tells you it's not enough to be nice. Nice is only a starting point. My boyfriend goes way beyond nice and onwards to amazing.

 

[Firia]

Love FAQ: Nice Guys Suck

"Nice Guys Finish Last" isn't just a song by Green Day.

Read Full Article

Thank you Lara. I've known a... few Nice Guys(tm) in my day. I don't know what they expected... I'm a gay woman, sooooo, yeah. Still, I'm hoping they read it and see the folly of their way. Because how they pine and grab hold of straws is really pretty sad. And then it's annoying.

 

[Vortigar]

"Love yourself first, and without restraint."

That's where things usually fall down if you ask me. All this "but I'm a nice guy" jibber jabber is just dancing around the issue. People who profile themselves as being the nice guy usually have problems with themselves (and I have problems with myself myself, don't you mistake me for poking fun here).

The nice guy finishes last complaint is an excuse, a way of validation. The people who use it are misguided. And here's where I don't agree with the statement that the nice guy(tm) is a jerk. The nice guy sentiment is a thought pattern that holds no malicious intent. A jerk, to my mind, is someone who knows what they're doing and consciously chooses to mess with you.

 

[Athinira]

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

No it doesn't contradict it at all.

Your personality (as in, "being yourself") is not a constant object. It's a growing entity that matures with your experiences and your interactions with the world, and it's perfectly possible to change and mold it while still being yourself.

Sure, it's not a 1 day change, and some guy who from one day goes from being a nerd who dresses badly etc. to someone who wears suits and generally try to impress people is an example of someone who is trying too hard.

But there is nothing wrong with changing your personality, not to accommodate what (you think) will please others, but because of a genuine desire for yourself to become something better and more awesome. For the sake of example, if someone who is a a fat smoke one day decides that enough is enough and quits smoking and starts in the gym and drops 50 pounds in a couple of months, do you also consider that person to be someone who is pretending to be someone else, or do you see him as someone who matured and dealt with his personal problems with great dedication? I certainly hope it's the latter.

.

Improving and maturing your personality is not only doing yourself a favor, it's doing everyone around you who knows and interacts with you a favor. Being awesome (which, as pointed out, is something that can be learned), and making people realize that you are awesome is the greatest gift you can give to both yourself and them.

 

[Athinira]

oddly the clarification doesn't feel any less insulting and still amounts to : girls don't want nice guys, you're better off being a jerk than being yourself.

* <--- The point

.

.

O <--- Your head.

Let me just put it out in plaintext for you: Niceness is NOT a quality that attracts. It provokes empathy at best. That's it.

The point passed so far over your head it's unbelievable, so let me tell you what she really said (but you misinterpreted). She didn't say that women don't want nice guys.

What she said however, is that being nice doesn't attract women.

That doesn't mean that you can't be a nice guy and attract women. You can. It's just that your niceness isn't your SELLING POINT. If you want to attract women, you need to focus on other qualities of your personality, but those qualities and being a nice guy isn't mutually exclusive. You can be a nice guy and still have them (and swim in women).

 

[Cephei Mordred]

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

No it doesn't contradict it at all.

Your personality (as in, "being yourself") is not a constant object. It's a growing entity that matures with your experiences and your interactions with the world, and it's perfectly possible to change and mold it while still being yourself.

Sure, it's not a 1 day change, and some guy who from one day goes from being a nerd who dresses badly etc. to someone who wears suits and generally try to impress people is an example of someone who is trying too hard.

But there is nothing wrong with changing your personality, not to accommodate what (you think) will please others, but because of a genuine desire for yourself to become something better and more awesome. For the sake of example, if someone who is a a fat smoke one day decides that enough is enough and quits smoking and starts in the gym and drops 50 pounds in a couple of months, do you also consider that person to be someone who is pretending to be someone else, or do you see him as someone who matured and dealt with his personal problems with great dedication? I certainly hope it's the latter.

.

Improving and maturing your personality is not only doing yourself a favor, it's doing everyone around you who knows and interacts with you a favor. Being awesome (which, as pointed out, is something that can be learned), and making people realize that you are awesome is the greatest gift you can give to both yourself and them.

I don't know...I kind of liked it when Jed Clampett said "Good Lord made us all, and if we're good enough for him, we sure ought to be good enough for each other."

Meaning, if God views us all as absolute equals, then should society not do so as well? Abandoning all this nonsense about 'status' and other ways of exalting some over others?

 

[Twinmill5000]

Listen: I'm not going to tell you I'm a nice guy, in fact, if I dislike you, and see no reason to try, I can make GlaDOS look warm and loving.

But I think the world needs more nice people. No, it's not attractive to have some socially awkward, but nice guy around who apologizes for everything and does his best (really), well, at least not in an immediate, passionate way. It's not sexually attractive thereisaidit. I guess I'm experienced, but I've been on both sides of the fence here.

I was a really, really shut out and unfriendly person in high school. I had friends, and everyone else could get infected with the zombie plague for all I cared. I was also super nice, in a really demented relationship, which I held on as hard as I could when it fell apart, even when the best thing to do was letting it go. You do insane things when you're in love, and yeah, I did retarded things for attention too (cutting).

In the end, however, I found a middle ground. Nice, yeah, but smart enough to realize how much I'm losing by doing it, and being okay with it, at least, as far as relationships go.

But, back then, I guess I was a "Nice Guy". I was desperate, like a meth addict looking to get his next fix of crystal (fuck, I've even wrote about it on school papers... with that exact analogy.) I bothered my friends when me and her got in a dispute, which, no, thank you very fucking much, I handled less maturely than I am responding to that inflammatory article (which I imagine proceeds a more inflammatory one.

That didn't mean my feelings weren't genuine. How can I prove it? I'm still pursuing this relationship with her. We've broken it off a couple years back, and it's forming back together again. I realize that I could be living 'much larger' than I am now, and yeah, this makes me sound like a pretentious douchebag ("Nice Guy"), but I'm sticking with it, with full knowledge from experience what that means (the whole it not being returned thing). Oh, but maybe my version of love is just backwards. I can define it. You can take from it what you want, maybe it is.

Love is not just seeing yourself in the longterm with someone, but, for me, when you're willing to give it all in a relationship, when you say something to her, nomatter what it is, you fucking mean it. It's staying up when you know you have very important shit to do the next day, because she needs someone. It's when you stop looking down on that person as a companion, and looking at her as your goddamn teammate through life.

I've written alot already, and I'm starting to stray from the point, so I'll wrap this up. Stay seated, it'll be a few more paragraphs.

If you're a nice guy, and you're truly nice (give gas to a stranger stranded alongside the freeway nice), keep being the way you are. Alot of people have good intentions, even sadists do in harder to grasp ways, but not alot of people can act on them and stick to them when it gets in the way of comfort.

There may be some girls out there who don't want you unless you show a detached, and probably douchey set of behaviors, but doing so to make them interested would be fucking pretentious. That's probably alittle extreme, but if the girl you're with likes that, you need to find another girl, or hope you two get along in every other aspect. Regardless, as long as you aren't close-minded, you will find someone.

No, nobody's perfect. Nice doesn't equal perfect. You're going to have your flaws, and yeah, they can make or break a relationship, but those traits sure as fuck don't define you.

The summation of all your traits define you, and what it comes down to, nice guy or not, is your added totals, your complicated personal spec-sheet that takes years for a potential lifelong teammate to read over. If she (or he, for that matter), likes what she sees, and you like what you see (which you likely will, you're nice ffs, an open minded nice guy who probably believes in Disney love still because it's the love you feel), then you two may very well end up living in matrimony.

The best you can do is get familiar with yourself if you're not in a relationship, and get familiar with both yourself and your partner if you are. Don't look at things as good or bad, just look at them as traits. And preferences, but mainly your own, because you shouldn't focus on changing yourself for someone (but should change a bit... you know, compromise and all).

Like me. I really can't stand stupid people who think they're less stupid than they are (but stupid people who know they're stupid are okay.

 

[garfoldsomeoneelse]

Agreed on 100% of everything you said, killer article. Wish I'd had someone spell this out for me years ago instead of having to figure it out the hard way.

Last paragraph was also interesting, should we be moaning about being introverted guys then instead? However, what happens when this goes too far and we make another distinction between introverted guys and Introverted Guys (TM)?

Introversion versus extroversion is simply a matter of preference for your partner. People find each other attractive for a myriad of reasons, and a lot of them can be improved and built upon. You're not condemned to a life of "nobody will ever love me for who I am", because you can improve yourself and make a buttload of changes to yourself and your life that will directly benefit you, and in turn, make you that much more desirable. Born fat? Hit the gym. You're still you, but you're healthier, more confident, and easier on the eyes. Born quiet? Conversation is a skill like any other, so you've got to take it upon yourself to suffer the initial awkwardness and practice your communication skills until it comes to you naturally. Whether or not you're talkative isn't a part of your essence, it's behavior, and can be modified through effort.

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

You absolutely should be yourself, but it's also your job to be someone worthwhile if you want anyone to give a rat's ass when you do.

You know how most of us were told we could be anything we wanted when we grew up? I feel like that got dismissed as naive optimism for all the wrong reasons. When I heard that, I used to think "yeah, well, I'm not exactly astronaut material, so I guess you're wrong", but it's actually quite true, because your life and even your personality are as malleable to your decisions as a career. Believing otherwise is the trap that Nice Guys(TM) fall into because they think that who they are as a person at that very moment is all they'll ever have to work with, so they feel threatened and insecure because there are statistically guaranteed to be so many better people out there; so, they try to make up the difference by playing mind games, instead of taking the initiative to catch up with everyone else by improving themselves and not only making themselves more attractive, but also making their lives that much better because of it (which is the best reason to do anything).

When you meet someone you knew a long time ago, and they're more mature, would you consider them to be artificial versions of themselves? Of course not, because it's easy to see that they own the changes they made; maturity is just a shaky example, however, as this can be done with anything, so long as you're choosing to do it because you want it for yourself. You may not be born a supernova, but my friend, you can sure as hell become one.

 

[Folio]

"Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead."

:'D By the gods, yes! This is so inspiring!

 

[Cephei Mordred]

Agreed on 100% of everything you said, killer article. Wish I'd had someone spell this out for me years ago instead of having to figure it out the hard way.

Last paragraph was also interesting, should we be moaning about being introverted guys then instead? However, what happens when this goes too far and we make another distinction between introverted guys and Introverted Guys (TM)?

Introversion versus extroversion is simply a matter of preference for your partner. People find each other attractive for a myriad of reasons, and a lot of them can be improved and built upon. You're not condemned to a life of "nobody will ever love me for who I am", because you can improve yourself and make a buttload of changes to yourself and your life that will directly benefit you, and in turn, make you that much more desirable. Born fat? Hit the gym. You're still you, but you're healthier, more confident, and easier on the eyes. Born quiet? Conversation is a skill like any other, so you've got to take it upon yourself to suffer the initial awkwardness and practice your communication skills until it comes to you naturally. Whether or not you're talkative isn't a part of your essence, it's behavior, and can be modified through effort.

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

You absolutely should be yourself, but it's also your job to be someone worthwhile if you want anyone to give a rat's ass when you do.

You know how most of us were told we could be anything we wanted when we grew up? I feel like that got dismissed as naive optimism for all the wrong reasons. When I heard that, I used to think "yeah, well, I'm not exactly astronaut material, so I guess you're wrong", but it's actually quite true, because your life and even your personality are as malleable to your decisions as a career. Believing otherwise is the trap that Nice Guys(TM) fall into because they think that who they are as a person at that very moment is all they'll ever have to work with, so they feel threatened and insecure because there are statistically guaranteed to be so many better people out there; so, they try to make up the difference by playing mind games, instead of taking the initiative to catch up with everyone else by improving themselves and not only making themselves more attractive, but also making their lives that much better because of it (which is the best reason to do anything).

When you meet someone you knew a long time ago, and they're more mature, would you consider them to be artificial versions of themselves? Of course not, because it's easy to see that they own the changes they made; maturity is just a shaky example, however, as this can be done with anything, so long as you're choosing to do it because you want it for yourself. You may not be born a supernova, but my friend, you can sure as hell become one.

So, is this how to follow the author's exhortation, that 'love only comes to those who earn it?'

Well, perhaps it would be good to teach this in schools at an early age. Let them know from the very beginning that there is much they need to do to ever earn love. Just existing isn't enough, and heaven forbid, being a decent human being, you should be doing that anyway, don't get greedy.

It would take some doing, after all there might be some holdouts who get lied to by their parents and other authority figures about some nonsense called 'unconditional love,' but stick to your guns and they'll come around.

Perhaps when they graduate, they could take a final test, to see if they have taken the lessons to heart, and obeyed them accordingly. They could be given some kind of certificate to signify that they have been measured and found worthy. Or better still, some kind other identifier, like a badge on their shirt or something.

Sounds like the ultimate solution to the problem for me.

 

[Athinira]

I don't know...I kind of liked it when Jed Clampett said "Good Lord made us all, and if we're good enough for him, we sure ought to be good enough for each other."

Meaning, if God views us all as absolute equals, then should society not do so as well? Abandoning all this nonsense about 'status' and other ways of exalting some over others?

I don't believe in god, and i certainly don't believe in that statement.

As humans, we need to provide value to the world around us for it to appreciate us, and if you as a person fail to provide value to the people around you (or society as a whole), simply saying "This is how god made me" is just a sad excuse for not doing better, and people WILL dislike you for it (similar to how people who abuse society for their own personal benefit isn't looked well upon).

In my eyes, it's just another ridiculous religious attempt to excuse themself because they didn't do things properly in the first place. If you want people to appreciate you, you need to give them something of value in their lives (and I'm not talking about money, although for 3 people that certainly can be a factor), as in you have to WORK for it. It can be anything: Waking emotions in them (like being able to turn them on, which is often how relationships are starting), making them laugh and enjoy themself around you, there are so many ways to do it. But sitting on your ass and claiming that you are good enough "out of the box" certainly isn't the answer, because not everything is great when unpacked.

Of course if you believe otherwise, then feel free to sit on your ass. I'm just warning you that you'll be the one losing out in the end. Creating value requires an investment, and people not willing to invest is never going to gain.

 

[Cephei Mordred]

I don't know...I kind of liked it when Jed Clampett said "Good Lord made us all, and if we're good enough for him, we sure ought to be good enough for each other."

Meaning, if God views us all as absolute equals, then should society not do so as well? Abandoning all this nonsense about 'status' and other ways of exalting some over others?

I don't believe in god, and i certainly don't believe in that statement.

As humans, we need to provide value to the world around us for it to appreciate us, and if you as a person fail to provide value to the people around you (or society as a whole), simply saying "This is how god made me" is just a sad excuse for not doing better, and people WILL dislike you for it (similar to how people who abuse society for their own personal benefit isn't looked well upon).

In my eyes, it's just another ridiculous religious attempt to excuse themself because they didn't do things properly in the first place. If you want people to appreciate you, you need to give them something of value in their lives (and I'm not talking about money, although for 3 people that certainly can be a factor), as in you have to WORK for it. It can be anything: Waking emotions in them (like being able to turn them on, which is often how relationships are starting), making them laugh and enjoy themself around you, there are so many ways to do it. But sitting on your ass and claiming that you are good enough "out of the box" certainly isn't the answer, because not everything is great when unpacked.

Of course if you believe otherwise, then feel free to sit on your ass. I'm just warning you that you'll be the one losing out in the end. Creating value requires an investment, and people not willing to invest is never going to gain.

Ignoring the clear tone of "be alpha or gtfo" for a moment...

This seems to go in contradiction to your earlier statement of:

But there is nothing wrong with changing your personality, not to accommodate what (you think) will please others, but because of a genuine desire for yourself to become something better and more awesome.

"Providing value for others" sounds a lot like a mandate to please others to me. Heck, all this talk of 'value' pretty much sets the stage for a moral mandate to be subject to the judgements of all others, at the expense of ones own self judgement of value.

 

[Athinira]

Ignoring the clear tone of "be alpha or gtfo" for a moment...

This seems to go in contradiction to your earlier statement of:

But there is nothing wrong with changing your personality, not to accommodate what (you think) will please others, but because of a genuine desire for yourself to become something better and more awesome.

"Providing value for others" sounds a lot like a mandate to please others to me. Heck, all this talk of 'value' pretty much sets the stage for a moral mandate to be subject to the judgement of all others, at the expense of ones own self judgement of value.

There is nothing "be alpha" about it. Most people who know me consider me an awesome person, and I'm not an alpha type at all. Being awesome is in no way associated with being an alpha male or being a pack leader )

As for your point, the reason I'm talking about providing value for others is because this thread is essentially about the mating game, and if you can't provide 'value' to the opposite sex (or same sex if you're gay), then you obviously aren't going to get laid.

Beyond that, most people want to be awesome not to please others, but because it pleases them self mentally.
Why do you think those big guys who work out at the Gym with big muscles like admiring themselves in the mirror? Because they like their awesome muscles. Same reason girls pose in front of the mirror in their new clothes and photograph it.
Why do you think people like to brag about their accomplishments (like a Facebook status with someone saying they just ran 4 minutes in 30 minutes, and then being totally proud of them self)? Because bragging boosts their ego.

Ultimately the goal of being "awesome" for most people is about pleasing themselves, not pleasing others. That's why i recommend that if you want to make your life better, then do it for your OWN sake, not for others. Providing value to others is just a side bonus that makes them like you (which in turn also boosts your ego, as in, it grants you a selfish pleasure, and will eventually enable you to find people to spend your life with, be it friends or a wife/husband), but it's not a priority over YOU being happy with YOURSELF.

Wanting to attain social status is ultimately a selfish goal, but it relies on providing other people with value in their lives. If you want to ignore (or don't care) about your social status, then all the more power to you, but don't expect other people to care about you then.