No "Meaningless Stat Games" in Mass Effect 3

[wekill]

yay good job Biowair you've now made one of the best space rpgs not just a slightly non liner shooter. i think I'm not going to bother buying this one ill just read the story online. thanks for runening the game. At least we still got Skyrim.

 

[TheBelgianGuy]

OMG IT'S NOT AN RPG IF THERE ARENT AT LEAST 15 USELESS STATISTICS! CRY CRY

 

[Twad]

Reapers are made from

Spoiler

PEOPLE!!1!!!oneone!!

thing is so scholcky it could easily come from a bad 80s 3d movie

Does that mean that solyent green is liquid reaper? and isnt Soylent green delicious?

Then the reapers should be easy to defeat.

 

[Reyalsfeihc]

I think the major problem with all the arguments about Mass Effect 3 being dumbed down from "RPG Splendor" is because people assosciate RPG's nowadays with WoW. Is WoW successful? Yes, you bet, but that doesn't mean that EVERY SINGLE RPG ELEMENT comes from a game like World of Warcraft or one similar to it.

 

[AngryBritishAce]

I'm just tired. Tired of the way gamers throw out anger at a game that hasn't even been released. I am worried that it may not be as good as the previous games, but that happens with any sequel.

For instance, Portal 2, I thought it would be the repetition of "the cake is a lie" in every chamber, but it was the best game I've played this year thus far. So I try to be calm about the game, look at the good stuff they are putting in, and just look forward to what will be a great game.

For I bet to everyone who thinks it will be bad that it will be. A negative attitude towards this will only lead to a negative outcome.

 

[Therumancer]

[cut]
Basically Bioware is being a bunch of self-righteous punks who are stabbing their fans in the back, and either denying it or acting like it doesn't matter.

No. Just, no. Let me try to make this as clear as I can.

BioWare makes games. You buy them if you like them. It's that simple, Bioware doesn't owe you anything. The self-righteous prick here is you, thinking that you are actually entitled to anything just because you bought a product. Buying that gives you that product and nothing more. Bioware doesn't care about you and there's no reason they should. They care about their game, and how much money it makes.

Now, to end on a friendly note, you might want to tone down the wall of texts a little, it's not a good way of getting your point across.

The long posts are needed to cover all the details. The length of my posts has come up before, and simply put if I shorten things it leads to other problems.

Other than that, your wrong. Pretty much every business is going to say it doesn't owe it fans anything. Musicians do it all the time, they are more than willing to embrace all their fans who follow them for being radical and revolutionary, until they wind up becoming big enough where they sign a major contract in exchange for churning out tons of soulless teen pop crap. They band pretty much goes "hey, we're going to take the money, we don't owe you guys who got us to this point, kept us fed, and allowed us to work on our music anything. We just make music, and you decided whether to buy it or not, since your outnumbered by the teenie boppers and we have a contract, guess which way we're going har, har, har".

That debt exists, it's just that nobody wants to acknowlege it when it becomes inconveinent, it's "we thank our fans for supporting us and allowing us to do this" up until they don't need those fans anymore. I'm not the first person to compare game developers to Rock Stars and there are reasons for that.

There isn't any way of enforcing that debt (well, at least not yet), but nobody should be surprised when they wind up getting sh@t for it. You take a dump on millions of people and then wipe your butt afterwards on $100 bills, you have no right to get uppity when the people on the receiving end decide they don't like you.

Honestly though, as the information age continues, and contract law becomes more... interesting, this might change. As crazy as it might sound, there are already some indications that what a band might say during a concert could count as a verbal contract
if it can be verified. This is largely because we're looking at situations where someone might give a presentation before say a corperate board, and then do something very differant from what they said and say "hey I didn't sign anything, so it wasn't binding". Enough witnesses to a promise along with something like a tape recording, and you can see arguements made about a verbal contract, and while it's a slow process, that kind of thing is on the rise through precedent. Someone promises something in an interview, or before a crowd, and we might very well wind up with cases where that counts as verbal contrart with tons of people with thousands of witnesses and recordings that form a physical record. That happens and we might very well find game developers, rock stars, and others held accountable to promises made to their fans, or even just implied. I could say more, but it would get increasingly off topic, and we're nowhere near that point yet.

 

[Shjade]

So it's now 100% Gears of Wars in Space.

I haven't played Gears of War, so I don't know, but...isn't Gears of War already Gears of War in Space?

 

[Faerillis]

Nothing RPG was stripped in ME2
RPGs have nothing to do with stats and inventories. RPGs are about Role-Playing, that's why it is in the name.

That said I'm looking forward to the return of some of the inventory.

 

[bombadilillo]

Nothing RPG was stripped in ME2
RPGs have nothing to do with stats and inventories. RPGs are about Role-Playing, that's why it is in the name.

That said I'm looking forward to the return of some of the inventory.

Dont be silly, seriously. So every game beyond tetris is an RPG cause you play a role, la la la la. No sorry, RPG is a genre with expected traits and norms so when they take out some of those ideas it is becoming less of a RPG.

 

[Faerillis]

Nothing RPG was stripped in ME2
RPGs have nothing to do with stats and inventories. RPGs are about Role-Playing, that's why it is in the name.

That said I'm looking forward to the return of some of the inventory.

Dont be silly, seriously. So every game beyond tetris is an RPG cause you play a role, la la la la. No sorry, RPG is a genre with expected traits and norms so when they take out some of those ideas it is becoming less of a RPG.

Obviously not every game where you play a role is an RPG but those old RPG elements, the behind-the-scenes dice rolls, the overstocked inventories, etc... Those elements were adopted to deal with a lack of capabilities in computers at the time. They were easy and mathematical, brilliant and fine in their own rights but hardly what should define the genre

Any game in which you play an unprescribed role with the ability to make meaningful choices, gameplay or storywise, is an RPG. Those other elements have nothing to do with it.

 

[Fanboy]

But thats our point - it's not a roleplaying game if it's purely based on the players personal skill.

In the old Hitman games I could choose multiple routes, I could choose who to leave alive or who dies but everything I did I did using my skill as a player - never the skills of the character.

In the thief games it's the same - I had a lot of choices, I had a lot of player agency but every skill was based on my skill as a player NOT as a character.

In Deus Ex, in ME, in Alpha protocol the chances of success were affected by the player actions but the main success comes from the characters skill. As the characters skill increases the target reticule becomes more accurate and more stable allowing the player to better guide the character but it's the character that matters.

Without Stats the character is never seperate to the player it's just the player in a different set of clothes possibly speaking with a different accent.

To me a role playing game is about the strategy of preparing the character to survive the danger, not on the twitch ability of myself being capable of handling the danger directly.

[This may not be relevant to ME3 since they never said they were removing stats, just unnoticable changes to stats, but I just wanted to point out that your definition of role playing is not the only viable definition]

Didn't it seem silly to you that Commander Shepard, an experienced soldier and potential Spectre, can barely shoot her weapon straight? Even if that makes sense to you (and I'll admit I can look past it too) why after mastering her weapon of choice in Mass Effect would she then be reduced to a cock-eyed spaz again in Mass Effect 2? Brain trauma? Hmmm, that would explain some of the dialogue. Anyways, This isn't one of those fables where you start as a peasant and become the hero. You are already the hero at the beginning of the game. Imagine if Garrett, the master thief, had to level up his lock-picking... Nonsense!

I have no problem when the weapon skill progression fits in with the story, like it did in Deus Ex, System Shock 2, and Fallout 3, even though it can be a tad frustrating. I just think there are other, better ways to show character progression without handicapping the player and contradicting the stories' established characters.

 

[Arec Balrin]

ALL games have 'meaningless stat games' under-pinning them. It's just that traditional RPGs are transparent about what those stats are and don't assume the player is a moron that can't do school-level math.

This news is not welcome no matter who its intended audience was.

 

[RYjet911]

This just means that when we spend points, we know what's changing. No pointless math equations giving the false impression of depth. Besides, if RPG purism is getting in the way of a better Mass Effect, then RPG purists can screw off.

I'm so glad that my love of leveling, looting, and tactics is now relegated to "meaningless stat games".

When did they say they were removing leveling, tactics, or looting?

Looting was gone in ME2, as was in depth leveling and combat was much less tactical and more fast paced. Seems to be what he is referencing.

I'd hardly call ME1 indepth levelling. It just meant every level up (Which didn't happen particularly often) I'd get a 1-2% boost in whatever I decided to upgrade, which would immediately be squashed to standard thanks to level scaling. And ME2 had a much better system for ordering team mates around, my experience of ME1 being let Wrex run at the enemy and soak up the damage while you and your other team mate shot until everything died.

 

[REPLAY13]

possibly explained by the fact that Shepard may retain all his skills from ME2? I mean, if he's still a laser-guided killing machine then why would he still need to level up?

 

[PhoenixVanguard]

To me a role playing game is about the strategy of preparing the character to survive the danger, not on the twitch ability of myself being capable of handling the danger directly.

[This may not be relevant to ME3 since they never said they were removing stats, just unnoticable changes to stats, but I just wanted to point out that your definition of role playing is not the only viable definition]

Didn't it seem silly to you that Commander Shepard, an experienced soldier and potential Spectre, can barely shoot her weapon straight? Even if that makes sense to you (and I'll admit I can look past it too) why after mastering her weapon of choice in Mass Effect would she then be reduced to a cock-eyed spaz again in Mass Effect 2? Brain trauma? Hmmm, that would explain some of the dialogue. Anyways, This isn't one of those fables where you start as a peasant and become the hero. You are already the hero at the beginning of the game. Imagine if Garrett, the master thief, had to level up his lock-picking... Nonsense!

I have no problem when the weapon skill progression fits in with the story, like it did in Deus Ex, System Shock 2, and Fallout 3, even though it can be a tad frustrating. I just think there are other, better ways to show character progression without handicapping the player and contradicting the stories' established characters.

Mostly exactly what he said, but I would also like to argue that the difference between a roleplaying game and any other game where you play a character is that yes, I am as much in that role as possible. The constraints lie in the fact that ultimately, the story has to go a certain way. Mass Effect is actually a great example of this. Can Shepard ever really be EVIL in Mass Effect? Not really. I can think of only one decision option between both games that I consider to be inexcusably evil (End of Samara's loyalty mission), having no "greater good" argument at all.

But I'm free to choose within Shepard's role of being a galaxy saving hero whether I want to be a paragon or renegade. That to me means infinitely more to roleplaying than forced impotency. If I mess up, which I do in Mass Effect, then that's what my character would do. If I perform rock solid, that's MY character, not the game deciding what my character is. If I want my game to play itself, then I'll read a book or watch a movie. Or play a JRPG.

 

[Continuity]

Nothing RPG was stripped in ME2
RPGs have nothing to do with stats and inventories. RPGs are about Role-Playing, that's why it is in the name.

That said I'm looking forward to the return of some of the inventory.

Dont be silly, seriously. So every game beyond tetris is an RPG cause you play a role, la la la la. No sorry, RPG is a genre with expected traits and norms so when they take out some of those ideas it is becoming less of a RPG.

Obviously not every game where you play a role is an RPG but those old RPG elements, the behind-the-scenes dice rolls, the overstocked inventories, etc... Those elements were adopted to deal with a lack of capabilities in computers at the time. They were easy and mathematical, brilliant and fine in their own rights but hardly what should define the genre

Any game in which you play an unprescribed role with the ability to make meaningful choices, gameplay or storywise, is an RPG. Those other elements have nothing to do with it.

And thats where you're wrong, RPG is precisely these elements, take those away and what you're left with is some sort of action adventure.
And no, dice-rolls ect were not implemented into computer games because of "a lack of capabilities in computers at the time", it was because it was what the developers knew, they drew inspiration from the table top and P&P RPG games, many of the first CRPGs were literal translations of table top.
THe developers knew tabletop, the fans knew it, it made sense and it suited everyone... until new gamers came into the genre and were bamboozled by all the stats and numbers and calculations etc.. at that point it became an accessibility issue and since then we have seen the decline of the CRPG.

 

[The Random One]

Yeah, whatever. If those stats don't affect how you chat up blue girls and snarl at Krogan I don't care.

 

[camazotz]

I'm guessing that the reason I still see Mass Effect as an RPG is because I'm old enough to remember when RPG meant "role playing game," which meant telling stories about characters....and system wasn't tied to leveling and stat management, like the term seems to mean for video game RPGs these days. I mean, to me Red Dead Redemption, Enslaved and even Gears of War are all RPGs because you assume a role in a story...and the ones that are Good RPGs are the ones where you can influence the story in meaningful ways (ala Mass Effect, RDR and such).

How on earth the idea of RPGs got terminally wedded to leveling mechanics and stat manipulation....ah, I guess I'll just blame D&D and leave it at that.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Nothing RPG was stripped in ME2
RPGs have nothing to do with stats and inventories. RPGs are about Role-Playing, that's why it is in the name.

That said I'm looking forward to the return of some of the inventory.

Dont be silly, seriously. So every game beyond tetris is an RPG cause you play a role, la la la la. No sorry, RPG is a genre with expected traits and norms so when they take out some of those ideas it is becoming less of a RPG.

Obviously not every game where you play a role is an RPG but those old RPG elements, the behind-the-scenes dice rolls, the overstocked inventories, etc... Those elements were adopted to deal with a lack of capabilities in computers at the time. They were easy and mathematical, brilliant and fine in their own rights but hardly what should define the genre

Any game in which you play an unprescribed role with the ability to make meaningful choices, gameplay or storywise, is an RPG. Those other elements have nothing to do with it.

And thats where you're wrong, RPG is precisely these elements, take those away and what you're left with is some sort of action adventure.
And no, dice-rolls ect were not implemented into computer games because of "a lack of capabilities in computers at the time", it was because it was what the developers knew, they drew inspiration from the table top and P&P RPG games, many of the first CRPGs were literal translations of table top.
THe developers knew tabletop, the fans knew it, it made sense and it suited everyone... until new gamers came into the genre and were bamboozled by all the stats and numbers and calculations etc.. at that point it became an accessibility issue and since then we have seen the decline of the CRPG.

So why is the dice roll stuff central to what makes an RPG an RPG? Let's say I want to model shooting someone - I can either model it by rolling Attack Bonus + 1d20, or model it as a shooter. Tabletop games are better at the former, but the latter is generally a more immersive and engaging way to do it.

 

[High in Fiber]

possibly explained by the fact that Shepard may retain all his skills from ME2? I mean, if he's still a laser-guided killing machine then why would he still need to level up?

If you port from ME2, your starter level is where you last left off. Their would be some changes though to the skill set if I remember. I am hoping for Charm and Intimidate, as ME1 had all your skills deal with combat, and was useful, compare to ME2 where Charm and Intimidate doesn't do anything to combat, and force me to go the EXTREME!!!!, side of Paragon or renegade. Also as mention boost to defense and having specialization mean something with the boost.

I've been trying my best not to read too much about Mass Effect 3, but I'm kind of losing that battle. That said, I hadn't heard about being able to keep your ME2 levels going into 3. That could be pretty neat.

ME1 went up to level 60 at the max (after a few playthroughs). ME2 only went up to level 30. I'm speculating on this, but if ME3 would continue up to 60 (and if imported characters can start at level 30), then it seems almost like ME3 would be like playing epic levels in D&D 3rd edition. Starting halfway to your full potential would somehow feel more right than building up from zero again. This is just my mind wandering, though.


On the topic of skills being useful for something outside of combat, I don't see it as that much of a bad thing. It could enrich the roleplaying experience depending on how its done. For example, if you're parleying with a group of well-armed thugs you could A) use your high paragon status to sweet talk them, B) use your high renegade status to intimidate them, or C) use a high investment in biotics skills to engage in aggressive negotiations.

I think it would be kind of fun to be given an option C.