Notch: Windows 8 Could Be "Very Very Bad" for Indies

RhombusHatesYou

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octafish said:
I don't think it will be a very popular upgrade because it doesn't improve a great deal over 7 and introduces an unpopular interface, however integrating the Mobile OS and Desktop OS will probably pay off for MS.
Yeah... can't say I've heard anything about Win8 that's made me think of upgrading from Win7, which is a big part of why OS integration and familiarisation to support Windows on ARM powered devices seems the primary focus of Windows 8.
 

Akytalusia

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well, windows has a long history of alternating between sucky and functional OS's. it's only natural that windows 8 sucks and noone upgrades from 7 until the next one comes out anyway. they shouldn't be too concerned. noone's forcing anyone to upgrade.
 

Qhartb

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Sounds like good news for Linux.

(I'm not a Linux evangelist, btw. I use it at work, but use Windows on my personal PC.)
 

Epona

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Akytalusia said:
well, windows has a long history of alternating between sucky and functional OS's. it's only natural that windows 8 sucks and noone upgrades from 7 until the next one comes out anyway. they shouldn't be too concerned. noone's forcing anyone to upgrade.
...but Microsoft is offering a large discount within the first 3 months of Win 8's life. $39.99 to upgrade from XP, Vista or 7.

They are going to get alot of bites.
 

iniudan

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Crono1973 said:
Steam can continue to be Steam until Windows 9 where the Metro option is the only option.
Which I think is the main fear, for MS might just be keeping full desktop compatibility for this generation until all major production software adapt to metro, since metro app have to go through MS store and can only be independently loaded in the enterprise edition.

If that come to be true, then independent load will expend to Pro edition for the next windows generation or lower the number of license needed for enterprise edition, has IT of SMB don't want the extra work of having to deals with MS store and third party production software company will not want to add an extra 20% (which is the cut after a certain value of sale if I remember right, which those 3rd party will easily get) cut to MS to their cost. But in that scenario the home edition become locked down to MS store.

But other then that I actually don't have much going against Windows 8 other then mouse interface could be better, for windows 8 is indeed better then then windows 7 for it does all it did while been lighter and I just consider the metro menu like a full screen start menu. So main trouble with it is mostly uncertain future.
 

Epona

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iniudan said:
Crono1973 said:
Steam can continue to be Steam until Windows 9 where the Metro option is the only option.
Which I think is the main fear, for MS might just be keeping full desktop compatibility for this generation until all major production software adapt to metro, since metro app have to go through MS store and can only be independently loaded in the enterprise edition.

If that come to be true, then independent load will expend to Pro edition for the next windows generation or lower the number of license needed for enterprise edition, has IT of SMB don't want the extra work of having to deals with MS store and third party production software company will not want to add an extra 20% (which is the cut after a certain value of sale if I remember right, which those 3rd party will easily get) cut to MS to their cost. But in that scenario the home edition become locked down to MS store.

But other then that I actually don't have much going against Windows 8 other then mouse interface could be better, for windows 8 is indeed better then then windows 7 for it does all it did while been lighter and I just consider the metro menu like a full screen start menu. So main trouble with it is mostly uncertain future.
I like Windows 8 too and I do like Metro (hate it on the 360 though). When it was just Gabe talking I wasn't too worried, when Blizzard joined in I thought "there must be something to this but where are the details" and now we have a third high profile dev talking about it.

I like Windows 8, it's fast and it's easy to use (it really is) but if they are heading towards turning my PC into a locked down console, I may not be buying Windows 8, even for the low price of $40.
 

iniudan

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Crono1973 said:
iniudan said:
Crono1973 said:
Steam can continue to be Steam until Windows 9 where the Metro option is the only option.
Which I think is the main fear, for MS might just be keeping full desktop compatibility for this generation until all major production software adapt to metro, since metro app have to go through MS store and can only be independently loaded in the enterprise edition.

If that come to be true, then independent load will expend to Pro edition for the next windows generation or lower the number of license needed for enterprise edition, has IT of SMB don't want the extra work of having to deals with MS store and third party production software company will not want to add an extra 20% (which is the cut after a certain value of sale if I remember right, which those 3rd party will easily get) cut to MS to their cost. But in that scenario the home edition become locked down to MS store.

But other then that I actually don't have much going against Windows 8 other then mouse interface could be better, for windows 8 is indeed better then then windows 7 for it does all it did while been lighter and I just consider the metro menu like a full screen start menu. So main trouble with it is mostly uncertain future.
I like Windows 8 too and I do like Metro (hate it on the 360 though). When it was just Gabe talking I wasn't too worried, when Blizzard joined in I thought "there must be something to this but where are the details" and now we have a third high profile dev talking about it.

I like Windows 8, it's fast and it's easy to use (it really is) but if they are heading towards turning my PC into a locked down console, I may not be buying Windows 8, even for the low price of $40.
On my side it is mostly not minding it, more of a Linux guy, but on the Linux spectrum I am more on the side opposite to Stallman, for I mostly align toward Torvalds opinion (who for example actually think Secure boot is a good thing, has long has it stay open for the users to modify) and I prefer Copyfree license or type close to it like Apache (which is basically Copyfree but require reference, like academic work, which make it not Copyfree) over GPL.

Torvalds opinion on secure boot, just in case someone ask for proof, since secure boot is quite a hot topic in any Linux community:
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Crono1973 said:
Most hardware is made with Windows in mind.
Actually, the vast majority of computer hardware manufactured will never end up in what most people would consider a 'computer'. The most numerous CPU in the world is the RISC based ARM archtecture family of CPUs, which is not something you find in PCs (about the only place you won't find them these days)

Hardware is made to be operated by a system's control firmware (BIOS and the like).

Drivers are written with Windows in mind.
No, drivers are written for the system architecture and operating system(s) they are likely to be used with, as they act as a translator between the too (not exactly, but close enough).


The popularity of 64 bit Windows OS's is shaping hardware and drivers.
Do I even need to say it?

Even in the context of Personal Computers, Hardware is what shapes OSes and drivers, the only exception being DirectX feature sets and how they effect GPU chipsets, and even that is far from straight forward.
 

Epona

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Mr.Tea said:
sapphireofthesea said:
2. In built connection to a store...FOR A PEICE OF SOFTWARE I ALREADY FUCKING BOUGHT, you are going to clog things up, make me do fucking work to get something I paid money to do what I want it to do without it wasting resources on running a connection to a store, ON A PEICE OF SOFTWARE I ALREADY BOUGHT. (I am not a fan of being fucked with advertising after I have been decent enough to pay a company for a service, recently left McAfee after 4 years of happiness for this very reason)

3. If it brings very little to the table appart from a connection to a fucking inhouse store (will drop the agro at some point), what is the point of PAYING for this feature and suffering the loss in resources need to run it. And if I am just to disable it, what's the bloody point?

4. Notch and others are refering to program restrictions that are likely to come as part of this in house store (think what happened with D3 in trying this). If MS want to have it they will NEED to make it worth using which means ensuring it is the best option.

5. I re-iterate, I AM PAYING THEM MONEY, WHY THE HELL SHOULD I PAY FOR THE PRIVELAGE OF BEING ADVERTISED TO?
Care to explain what the donkey-flipping fuck you're on about?

That whole number 2 paragraph I quoted? I can't even parse it. What work is going to be forced upon you because you have the option of buying from a digital store? Wasting what resources?

There are no ads in Win8. If you open up the store app, then there will be things to buy on display, as well as things to download for free. Its like Apple's App Store and Google's Android Marketplace, scaled up.

I want you to imagine Windows 7, ok? You're with me so far? Make a background from a uniform colour, make all your icons into coloured squares and add an icon named store.

There. Windows 8. Everything still works the way it used to, except your start button is full screen with square buttons and there's one of those labelled "store". You don't have to use it. It's like Internet Explorer; It's there for people who don't know better. Do you know better? Then congrats, don't use it! Install Firefox, Chrome or Opera the same way you've been doing all these years and install any other software you want however you want to!

You know what the best Metro App is? It's called desktop, where you and all the software you love can continue to exist!

I agree that Metro is kind of silly, but you know what the biggest criticism Microsoft has been getting since Apple started making fun of them? It's not intuitive enough. And so much of the shit that's been directed at them stems from that; people don't know that the fuck they're doing and they blame Windows for being a pile of shit. Metro is the answer to that. Big colourful square and pre-approved software from a central distribution source. So easy a child can use it! And now they're getting some fresh shit for that.

And you know, Windows 7 still exists. You don't have to upgrade so save your money and anger and just ignore Win 8 if you don't care for it.



Crono1973 said:
I installed Windows 8 on a Vista system and it runs so much faster than Vista. That's sad, that shows just how piss poor Vista was. When a 2012 OS runs faster on 2006 hardware than an OS that came out in 2006.
An OS with 6 years worth of optimization runs faster?? Stop the presses!
Yes, Vista got kind of bloated (nowhere near as bad as the reaction to it), but it was a necessary step, with a new kernel and new features with some rough edges that were then made smoother in the next version.
They couldn't just skip right ahead and optimize Vista into Win7 and not release shit for 3 years.
Vista should have never been released, it should have been fixed (Windows 7) before it was released.

On 2006 hardware, Vista should run better than a 2012 operating system on 6 year old hardware. If you can't see that then I don't what else to tell you. It's like Windows XP running better on 6 year old hardware than Windows 95 did.

Vista was a bloated mess and it still is today even after all the updates. Anyone thinking that "Vista wasn't really bad" needs to share their meds.
 

Epona

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Actually, the vast majority of computer hardware manufactured will never end up in what most people would consider a 'computer'. The most numerous CPU in the world is the RISC based ARM archtecture family of CPUs, which is not something you find in PCs (about the only place you won't find them these days)

Hardware is made to be operated by a system's control firmware (BIOS and the like).
...because we haven't been talking about PC's here.

No, drivers are written for the system architecture and operating system(s) they are likely to be used with, as they act as a translator between the too (not exactly, but close enough).
So....Windows then? After all, if most people use Windows then most hardware drivers targeted at PC's will have Windows in mind.

Do I even need to say it?

Even in the context of Personal Computers, Hardware is what shapes OSes and drivers, the only exception being DirectX feature sets and how they effect GPU chipsets, and even that is far from straight forward.
So....Windows then? After all, if most people use Windows then most hardware driver targeted at PC's will have Windows in mind. Direct X is more than just graphics, it's audio and input as well. USB devices like controllers or just keyboard and mouse. When is the last time you saw a non Windows controller or K/M? Do you see alot of sound cards that don't work on Windows?
 

Bernzz

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Atomic said:
He Tweeted.
HE TWEETED.
Does he do anything other than tweet? This is why it takes weeks for 1 FUCKING UPDATE.
If by update you mean update to Minecraft...

You do realise he doesn't work on the game at all anymore, right?
 

ZephrC

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Torrasque said:
Wait. There could be a day in the foreseeable future, when Apple OS is preferred over Windows OS?! Wow, that'll be the day.
I highly doubt it since all the complaints seem to be that Windows 8 is way too similar to an Apple OS.
 

Yopaz

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Two-A said:
So Microsoft is gonna take their one advantage over Apple and destroy it? That's a pretty stupid idea if you ask me

If this does happen, I hope the indie movement can find a way to survive (there's always Linux, but coding for that OS is pretty darn complicated)
Yeah, I was kinda into the idea of Windows 8 until I heard how closed it was going to be. Hell, even Apple isn't this closed. They are basically making a tablet OS and expect us to be as happy using that as a full OS.

chickenhound said:
I now relise I know very little about computers becuse this all is confusing

why is windows 8 seemingly so bad and what are ARM and metro?
Not sure what ARM is, but Windows 8 wont let you install any kind of software without downloading it from the Windows store client that comes with Windows 8. MicroSoft gets a fair share of the money you pay for which limits the money the indie developers get, it also makes it harder to release games without the support of MicroSoft. Metro is the name of the user interface which is currently only seen on phones.
 

Treblaine

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Well I always wondered what would finally push everyone over to Linux, I had no idea it would be Microsoft themselves!
 

Evil Smurf

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So why does'n't Microsoft hire people with good ideas to make their OS's? It is Baffling, they don't need another vista.
 

Treblaine

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Torrasque said:
Wait. There could be a day in the foreseeable future, when Apple OS is preferred over Windows OS?! Wow, that'll be the day.
-*Criticised for being too similar to apple's OS*
-"HEY everybody, if Windows is going to be discarded then Apple must fill the void!"

Ahem:




No... THIS will be the mother hubbarding DAY, my friend.

Apple's stability is favoured because it is based on a ripped off version of Unix (daddy of Linux) but is then derped by layering Apple's special brand of authoritarian control sauce over the top.

Windows had the advantage of having the balance between openness and content. Linux was and has always been the ideal operating system but just was not supported as windows had enough freedom. But things are changing. Microsoft is trying to copy their competitor who is actually taking FAR LESS of the PC market with locked down "streamlined" operating system.

You know what, Microsoft, we have the mechanisms ourselves to decide what programs are safe and suitable. We don't need your special authorisation BS.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Crono1973 said:
So....Windows then?
No

After all, if most people use Windows then most hardware driver targeted at PC's will have Windows in mind.
No because, unlike you seem to be having trouble doing, hardware manufacturers can support more than one thing at a time.

If a significant portion of the Windows PC community chucked it in and switched over to a Linux distro, you can bet your arse that distro, if it wasn't already supported, would quickly be picked up.