Notch: Windows 8 Could Be "Very Very Bad" for Indies

[Wolfenbarg]

The fact that you can't tamper with system files in Windows 7 unless you have the professional edition is bad enough (terrible for modding and ease-of-use in general). I didn't expect Windows 8 would back down from not letting you have access to major sections of your own computer. I think even with vehement disagreement from gamers, they'll proceed anyway. Simple, locked down systems have made Apple a more valuable company than Microsoft, they want a piece of that pie. We'll probably have to evolve around or adapt to whatever they come up with, because I doubt we'll change their minds.

 

[Epona]

Is there a reason to upgrade?

It starts a bit faster than 7 and has an included ISO mounter. But that's about all that I feel different in Win8...there is no difference and IMHO no reason to waste money on it.

So it starts instantly?

I hit the button on my windows 7 and it still feels instant. Hibernation is still MUCH faster but the difference between 3 seconds and 1 second isn't enough for me to care.

I'm being a bit hyperbolic, very much a fan of W7's speed.

From shutdown to you having control Windows 7 takes about 30 seconds on mine. That's after SP1 and all the updates. From a clean install Windows 7 takes about 20 seconds from shutdown to user control.

Windows 8 is about the same. Since I dual boot there is an extra screen to go through but once I have chosen Windows 8, it's instant.

I should note that Windows 8 does not support DVD playback. So if you already have a virtual drive (I have Alcohol 120%) then the ISO mounter in Win 8 is not a good tradeoff for the lack of DVD playback. You can buy DVD Playback in Windows 8.

 

[geizr]

Okay, I've been hearing all this screamage (yes, I just made that word up) that Windows 8 is going to kill gaming overnight. However, what I've never heard is exactly what combination of technologies and policies cause it to inhibit game developers from creating, marketing, selling, and distributing games on the platform. I need something more than just "It's the Metro Store that does it". Exactly how will it prevent them from doing so? Exactly how will it put them at a disadvantage? Exactly what is the process by which Windows 8 will kill gaming? Is this a real phenomenon, or is it just, yet again, a bunch of knee-jerk reaction from a few individuals who have proclaimed themselves gods of the universe who can manifest unambiguous, universal truth and reality by mere divine utterance? I'm asking this as a serious question because I keep hearing people get all upset without really explaining their position on the matter. Please, enlighten me, cause I seriously want to know.

The Windows Store. Basically Money$oft is shoehorning an idea from Apple on a desktop interface. Closing desktops for selling products is an App Store waiting to happen. The reason that gamers are getting pissed as Valve is the Messiah! No seriously. Steam could be challenged as a monopoly, and Steam itself could disappear from Win8.

Everyone, move to Linux! The games are faster!

captcha-lost love

Um, this is Money$oft we're talking about here...

And that's precisely the type of answer that I said was not enough, because you aren't telling me HOW this restriction is coming about. Even with Apple's Mac App Store, I can still go out and buy and install third-party software WITHOUT having to go through the Mac App Store (even Mountain Lion allows me to do this by changing one setting in the OS system preferences). It's that going through the Mac App Store simply provides a nice convenience. Does the Windows Store explicitly say as a strictly enforced policy that ABSOLUTELY NO software can be purchased and installed on the system EXCEPT via the Windows Store? If not, then this just sounds like a select few with particular vested interests that conflict with the Windows Store trying to manipulate people's thinking and perceptions; in other words, they're trying to eliminate potential competition before it has a chance to manifest by making everyone think it's bad without any real proof. It's the same kind of smoke-and-mirrors bullshit that all companies pull, and you have to be skeptical of anything said by anyone who has a vested interest in the outcome (like when playing a competitive game and your opponents try to give you advice on what your next move should be).

 

[geizr]

Okay, I've been hearing all this screamage (yes, I just made that word up) that Windows 8 is going to kill gaming overnight. However, what I've never heard is exactly what combination of technologies and policies cause it to inhibit game developers from creating, marketing, selling, and distributing games on the platform. I need something more than just "It's the Metro Store that does it". Exactly how will it prevent them from doing so? Exactly how will it put them at a disadvantage? Exactly what is the process by which Windows 8 will kill gaming? Is this a real phenomenon, or is it just, yet again, a bunch of unfounded knee-jerk reaction from a few individuals who have proclaimed themselves gods of the universe who can manifest unambiguous, universal truth and reality by mere divine utterance? I'm asking this as a serious question because I keep hearing people get all upset without really explaining their position on the matter. Please, enlighten me, cause I seriously want to know.

EDIT: minor edit for emphasis.

Did anyone say it was going to kill gaming overnight or is that your own hyperbole?

I'll admit that was my own hyperbole, but the point is that I have been hearing several prominent individuals, with vested interests, come out in opposition to Windows 8. The problem that I have is that I have not heard anything about how Windows 8 is going to be a problem. If you could explain it to me, I would appreciate it, however, you have to say more than simply the Windows Store is what is wrong. How is it wrong? What does it do so wrong? Does it really keep one from buying and installing software outside the Store, or are these vested interests simply trying to whip people into a frenzy in an attempt to eliminate a potential competition to their own store-fronts before it has a chance to manifest?

 

[Epona]

Okay, I've been hearing all this screamage (yes, I just made that word up) that Windows 8 is going to kill gaming overnight. However, what I've never heard is exactly what combination of technologies and policies cause it to inhibit game developers from creating, marketing, selling, and distributing games on the platform. I need something more than just "It's the Metro Store that does it". Exactly how will it prevent them from doing so? Exactly how will it put them at a disadvantage? Exactly what is the process by which Windows 8 will kill gaming? Is this a real phenomenon, or is it just, yet again, a bunch of unfounded knee-jerk reaction from a few individuals who have proclaimed themselves gods of the universe who can manifest unambiguous, universal truth and reality by mere divine utterance? I'm asking this as a serious question because I keep hearing people get all upset without really explaining their position on the matter. Please, enlighten me, cause I seriously want to know.

EDIT: minor edit for emphasis.

Did anyone say it was going to kill gaming overnight or is that your own hyperbole?

I'll admit that was my own hyperbole, but the point is that I have been hearing several prominent individuals, with vested interests, come out in opposition to Windows 8. The problem that I have is that I have not heard anything about how Windows 8 is going to be a problem. If you could explain it to me, I would appreciate it, however, you have to say more than simply the Windows Store is what is wrong. How is it wrong? What does it do so wrong? Does it really keep one from buying and installing software outside the Store, or are these vested interests simply trying to whip people into a frenzy in an attempt to eliminate a potential competition to their own store-fronts before it has a chance to manifest?

I am with you on the lack of details but maybe I can shed some light on things.

I think the introduction of this store (which requires console type licensing) is the first step in making the entire Windows OS into a closed store type of environment. I believe that Microsoft is putting their foot in the door, using the fact that they own the OS space, to make Windows just like the 360.

To simplify, you cannot put anything on the Metro store without paying Microsoft a license fee, it's just like a console. You will not see Steam on Metro. You can still run everything with the old desktop but the old desktop is no longer front and center, Metro is. I believe that Windows 9 or 10 will not have the desktop option.

 

[theultimateend]

From shutdown to you having control Windows 7 takes about 30 seconds on mine. That's after SP1 and all the updates. From a clean install Windows 7 takes about 20 seconds from shutdown to user control.

Windows 8 is about the same. Since I dual boot there is an extra screen to go through but once I have chosen Windows 8, it's instant.

I should note that Windows 8 does not support DVD playback. So if you already have a virtual drive (I have Alcohol 120%) then the ISO mounter in Win 8 is not a good tradeoff for the lack of DVD playback. You can buy DVD Playback in Windows 8.

You buy playback functionality

Might sound small but that sounds like a deal breaker to me :/. That's a bad precedent.

 

[Treblaine]

Todd Howard hasn't been a PC heavy weight since morrowind.

Well who else would you consider PC gaming heavyweights?

Would you include John Carmack?

The problem is even Valve and Mojang have to play the console game, Minecraft and every Valve game getting console releases even if inferior versions.

It isn't about anyone playing the console game, it's about having your main focus on consoles.

Well you can't have everything.

I appreciate the way things with are for how they aren't in fecking denial over how PC games are about modding and integrate very good support for modding.

I don't really care what console gets (except possibly for bragging rights) just as long as PC gets its due.

 

[Epona]

Todd Howard hasn't been a PC heavy weight since morrowind.

Well who else would you consider PC gaming heavyweights?

Would you include John Carmack?

The problem is even Valve and Mojang have to play the console game, Minecraft and every Valve game getting console releases even if inferior versions.

It isn't about anyone playing the console game, it's about having your main focus on consoles.

Well you can't have everything.

I appreciate the way things with are for how they aren't in fecking denial over how PC games are about modding and integrate very good support for modding.

I don't really care what console gets (except possibly for bragging rights) just as long as PC gets its due.

The more Bethesda concentrates on consoles, the less likely we are to get official modding tools. What if we didn't get the construction set with TES 6 because Bethesda couldn't be bothered to release it?

 

[Treblaine]

Todd Howard hasn't been a PC heavy weight since morrowind.

Well who else would you consider PC gaming heavyweights?

Would you include John Carmack?

The problem is even Valve and Mojang have to play the console game, Minecraft and every Valve game getting console releases even if inferior versions.

It isn't about anyone playing the console game, it's about having your main focus on consoles.

Well you can't have everything.

I appreciate the way things with are for how they aren't in fecking denial over how PC games are about modding and integrate very good support for modding.

I don't really care what console gets (except possibly for bragging rights) just as long as PC gets its due.

The more Bethesda concentrates on consoles, the less likely we are to get official modding tools. What if we didn't get the construction set with TES 6 because Bethesda couldn't be bothered to release it?

Well if things were different then... well... they would be different.

The thing is Todd Howard is pushing for modding in Skyrim and will continue to push for it on further TES games, that's what makes him important.

 

[cahtush]

Would you include John Carmack?

Sid Meier and mabey Will Wright?

Those are the ones i can think of just off my head.

 

[Epona]

Todd Howard hasn't been a PC heavy weight since morrowind.

Well who else would you consider PC gaming heavyweights?

Would you include John Carmack?

The problem is even Valve and Mojang have to play the console game, Minecraft and every Valve game getting console releases even if inferior versions.

It isn't about anyone playing the console game, it's about having your main focus on consoles.

Well you can't have everything.

I appreciate the way things with are for how they aren't in fecking denial over how PC games are about modding and integrate very good support for modding.

I don't really care what console gets (except possibly for bragging rights) just as long as PC gets its due.

The more Bethesda concentrates on consoles, the less likely we are to get official modding tools. What if we didn't get the construction set with TES 6 because Bethesda couldn't be bothered to release it?

Well if things were different then... well... they would be different.

The thing is Todd Howard is pushing for modding in Skyrim and will continue to push for it on further TES games, that's what makes him important.

Yeah, I am speculating but it took them months to put out the construction set for Skyrim. Why? Did they really need to make it work before they released it (I thought they used it to make the game in the first place)? Were they withholding it on purpose?

If it wasn't ready to be released until they fixed it, then next time they may not bother.

 

[cahtush]

Well who else would you consider PC gaming heavyweights?

Sid Meier and mabey Will Wright?

Those are the ones i can think of just off my head.

What's up with the quoting system today?

Nothing, I just messed up a bit.

 

[geizr]

I am with you on the lack of details but maybe I can shed some light on things.

I think the introduction of this store (which requires console type licensing) is the first step in making the entire Windows OS into a closed store type of environment. I believe that Microsoft is putting their foot in the door, using the fact that they own the OS space, to make Windows just like the 360.

To simplify, you cannot put anything on the Metro store without paying Microsoft a license fee, it's just like a console. You will not see Steam on Metro. You can still run everything with the old desktop but the old desktop is no longer front and center, Metro is. I believe that Windows 9 or 10 will not have the desktop option.

But, does any of that explicitly prevent the game developers from being able to develop, market, sell, and distribute games to the Windows platform? Are game developers going to be REQUIRED to sell all of their games SOLELY through the Windows Store? If not, then, as far as I can see right now, it merely represents a threat to their current status quo but not necessarily an end to their business viability, unless I'm missing something in my thinking here.

If we take Apple's Mac App Store as an existing example, it merely represents an additional convenient channel for software distribution and install. It currently does not restrict the user to just that channel for all software, not even under Mountain Lion, as I understand. Third-party developers are still perfectly free to create their own store-fronts (for example, Steam exists quite happily on Mac) through which to distribute their software.

Taking Steam as an example case, Steam enjoys an exalted position on the Mac because, as you know, the Mac platform is rather starved for quality gaming. It's an entire untapped market, and Valve is the first to really tap that market in-mass with Steam for Mac (yes, Blizzard makes games for Mac, also, but only Valve has really opened an entire channel for game distribution on the Mac); so, it has quickly become a primary channel for quality game distribution on the Mac because the Mac App Store does not have the same sort of selection as Steam. Thus, the Mac App Store does not really represent a credible threat to Steam.

However, on the Windows side, the situation is different, in my judgement. As best as I can tell, on Windows, Steam is just another channel, albeit a very successful one. They don't have the privileged position of being a primary channel the way they are on the Mac platform. As a result, Steam's position on Windows may be more susceptible to competitors, such as the introduction of the Windows Store. If nothing else, the Windows Store has the potential to dilute Steam's position on the Window's platform. Contrast this with the Mac platform where such a threat of dilution is, thus far, non-existent. So, given that, of course, they would oppose it because it is not in their interests to have an additional channel that may dilute their position further.

This is what I call vested interest, and it is one of the key substances off of which my Bullshit Meter[TM] is calibrated to trigger. So, I'm just not seeing it. I am just not seeing anywhere how independents and non-independent game companies are suddenly not able to sell their games. But, I do see a couple of outspoken people with vested interests struggling to maintain status quo. However, like I said, maybe I'm just missing something, something subtle that's eluding me.

 

[Overusedname]

My main comp is a mac, and my dev computer is still on 7...Guess I should keep it that way until I know more...

This makes a little nervous. Largely as a game dev student myself.

 

[Epona]

I am with you on the lack of details but maybe I can shed some light on things.

I think the introduction of this store (which requires console type licensing) is the first step in making the entire Windows OS into a closed store type of environment. I believe that Microsoft is putting their foot in the door, using the fact that they own the OS space, to make Windows just like the 360.

To simplify, you cannot put anything on the Metro store without paying Microsoft a license fee, it's just like a console. You will not see Steam on Metro. You can still run everything with the old desktop but the old desktop is no longer front and center, Metro is. I believe that Windows 9 or 10 will not have the desktop option.

But, does any of that explicitly prevent the game developers from being able to develop, market, sell, and distribute games to the Windows platform? Are game developers going to be REQUIRED to sell all of their games SOLELY through the Windows Store? If not, then, as far as I can see right now, it merely represents a threat to their current status quo but not necessarily an end to their business viability, unless I'm missing something in my thinking here.

If we take Apple's Mac App Store as an existing example, it merely represents an additional convenient channel for software distribution and install. It currently does not restrict the user to just that channel for all software, not even under Mountain Lion, as I understand. Third-party developers are still perfectly free to create their own store-fronts (for example, Steam exists quite happily on Mac) through which to distribute their software.

Taking Steam as an example case, Steam enjoys an exalted position on the Mac because, as you know, the Mac platform is rather starved for quality gaming. It's an entire untapped market, and Valve is the first to really tap that market in-mass with Steam for Mac (yes, Blizzard makes games for Mac, also, but only Valve has really opened an entire channel for game distribution on the Mac); so, it has quickly become a primary channel for quality game distribution on the Mac because the Mac App Store does not have the same sort of selection as Steam. Thus, the Mac App Store does not really represent a credible threat to Steam.

However, on the Windows side, the situation is different, in my judgement. As best as I can tell, on Windows, Steam is just another channel, albeit a very successful one. They don't have the privileged position of being a primary channel the way they are on the Mac platform. As a result, Steam's position on Windows may be more susceptible to competitors, such as the introduction of the Windows Store. If nothing else, the Windows Store has the potential to dilute Steam's position on the Window's platform. Contrast this with the Mac platform where such a threat of dilution is, thus far, non-existent. So, given that, of course, they would oppose it because it is not in their interests to have an additional channel that may dilute their position further.

This is what I call vested interest, and it is one of the key substances off of which my Bullshit Meter[TM] is calibrated to trigger. So, I'm just not seeing it. I am just not seeing anywhere how independents and non-independent game companies are suddenly not able to sell their games. But, I do see a couple of outspoken people with vested interests struggling to maintain status quo. However, like I said, maybe I'm just missing something, something subtle that's eluding me.

The Windows Store will not compete with Steam in the same way that GFWL did. It will be built in to the OS and it will be front and center on boot up. To get to Steam you need to go to the old desktop which is not front and center on bootup.

For you and me, this is no problem but for Jill Facebook, this may not be so easy. Also, looking to the future, the old desktop will eventually go away. It won't happen with Windows 8 but maybe Windows 9 or 10. Microsoft has said they are trying to release a new OS every couple of years now so Windows 9 is about 2-3 years away.

 

[geizr]

The Windows Store will not compete with Steam in the same way that GFWL did. It will be built in to the OS and it will be front and center on boot up. To get to Steam you need to go to the old desktop which is not front and center on bootup.

For you and me, this is no problem but for Jill Facebook, this may not be so easy. Also, looking to the future, the old desktop will eventually go away. It won't happen with Windows 8 but maybe Windows 9 or 10. Microsoft has said they are trying to release a new OS every couple of years now so Windows 9 is about 2-3 years away.

Okay, I can see Jill Facebook having a problem in that she just remains unaware of Steam. However, I'm not sure Jill Facebook really constitutes a significant demographic population within Steam's market. I would be more inclined to believe that the more tech savvy demographic population constitutes the overwhelming majority of Steam's market, in which case, as you said, it's not really a problem.

Even if the old desktop goes away, how is Steam prevented from ever being seen? Surely, Steam can simply be redesigned to operate within the Metro environment such to be visible as just another application accessible from the OS front-end interface. So, I'm still just not seeing a complete justification for all the soothsaying of a coming apocalypse for gaming on Windows. The only way I could see this as an end-of-times scenario for Windows gaming is if it becomes impossible, because Microsoft enforces it to be so, to purchase and install games in any other way other than via the Windows store, and only games approved by Microsoft are allowed on the store. Further, a requirement for this approval would have to be that the game is made by Microsoft or one of its business partners. In that case, yes, Windows gaming would die a horrible, miserable death. But, as long as there is nothing actually stopping game developers except the fact they have to put in a little extra effort to make the game work on the platform, I really just don't see the problem. Sure, the lazy ones and the ones refusing to adapt will die-off, but that happens with anything.

 

[Turing '88]

Wow, a lot of people pissing and moaning about things they know nothing about. If you don't understand only ARM devices will be locked down and don't see why Gabe might not like the idea of competing store then please don't comment until you do some research.

On Windows 8, I personally won't use Metro. I like the style of Metro apps (GitHub windows GUI) but not the metro desktop, as a developer and power user though it's not designed for me! I can see why Microsoft feel the need for it though, the age of the PC is coming to an end and they want to get into the phone and tablet markets before they do a Nokia.

People moaned Microsoft are behind the times, so they invested a lot into a interface most UX experts I've spoken to love/approve of and people then moan Microsoft have done an Apple! Microsoft are literally letting people have their cake and eat it too. You get the slick but inefficient Metro and still don't lose the powerful desktop we're all accustomed to.

...

For you and me, this is no problem but for Jill Facebook, this may not be so easy. Also, looking to the future, the old desktop will eventually go away. It won't happen with Windows 8 but maybe Windows 9 or 10. Microsoft has said they are trying to release a new OS every couple of years now so Windows 9 is about 2-3 years away.

If it does happen (Metro only) we all *****, moan and move to Linux then. I know that's what I'd do. It won't happen though as Microsoft couldn't get away with it legally, at least in the EU, and they have too many businesses who won't accept Metro.

EDIT I just wanted to add that while I don't think this will happen the slippery slope argument is actually the only one that makes sense and is likely what people like Notch are actually worried about.

This is a design Disaster. They even thought that putting the Menu in Developer Studio in ALL CAPS was a good "design" but developers use CamelCase to communicate what the menu item actually does when words are run together.

Metro UI sucks because it forces far too many applications into full screen mode. As a developer I typically have a dozen or so apps running. If my Email client insists on being FULL SCREEN when ever it is open I cant multitask.

As a developer I'll just not use Metro to run VS.... Also the ALL CAPS argument is so <a href=http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/22258/whats-the-deal-with-windows-8-elements-with-all-caps>worn out. And what does Pascal Case (camelCase != Pascal Case) have to do with menus? Did we expect Hungarian notation on Menus back when that was still prevalent?

 

[Vigormortis]

I cannot help but feel that Vista was somehow a prototype of 7 since that how it damn well felt.

That's because it was.

No really, it was.

It's how Microsoft has operated for years. They release a buggy, unfinished operating system as a test bed for the "real" OS launch a few years later.

For example: Before we had the marvelous Windows 98, we had Windows 95. Both utilized the same operating platform, but where 98 generally worked, 95 didn't. It was a broken, unfinished version of 98.

The same exact pattern has repeated with every major OS release since then. 2000/Millennium edition before XP. Vista before 7.

As such, if history is to indeed repeat itself, Windows 8 will be nothing more than some broken, half-finished, shitty version of whatever Microsoft's next OS is.

So do the smart thing people. Accept that Windows 8 will be shit; will always be shit; and just wait for Microsoft's next release.

O.T.
idiotic OS release schedules aside, I think Notch and Newell have some fair points. The scary thing isn't so much how the new Microsoft OS's will function, but how Microsoft's software support infrastructure and business practices may change with the new OS's.

I.E. A far more restrictive operating environment.

Time will tell what Microsoft will do. Here's hoping they don't go the Apple route.

 

[Epona]

The Windows Store will not compete with Steam in the same way that GFWL did. It will be built in to the OS and it will be front and center on boot up. To get to Steam you need to go to the old desktop which is not front and center on bootup.

For you and me, this is no problem but for Jill Facebook, this may not be so easy. Also, looking to the future, the old desktop will eventually go away. It won't happen with Windows 8 but maybe Windows 9 or 10. Microsoft has said they are trying to release a new OS every couple of years now so Windows 9 is about 2-3 years away.

Okay, I can see Jill Facebook having a problem in that she just remains unaware of Steam. However, I'm not sure Jill Facebook really constitutes a significant demographic population within Steam's market. I would be more inclined to believe that the more tech savvy demographic population constitutes the overwhelming majority of Steam's market, in which case, as you said, it's not really a problem.

Even if the old desktop goes away, how is Steam prevented from ever being seen? Surely, Steam can simply be redesigned to operate within the Metro environment such to be visible as just another application accessible from the OS front-end interface. So, I'm still just not seeing a complete justification for all the soothsaying of a coming apocalypse for gaming on Windows. The only way I could see this as an end-of-times scenario for Windows gaming is if it becomes impossible, because Microsoft enforces it to be so, to purchase and install games in any other way other than via the Windows store, and only games approved by Microsoft are allowed on the store. Further, a requirement for this approval would have to be that the game is made by Microsoft or one of its business partners. In that case, yes, Windows gaming would die a horrible, miserable death. But, as long as there is nothing actually stopping game developers except the fact they have to put in a little extra effort to make the game work on the platform, I really just don't see the problem. Sure, the lazy ones and the ones refusing to adapt will die-off, but that happens with anything.

Doubt Microsoft will allow that, would they allow Steam on the 360?

This is the problem with getting rid of the desktop. Without the desktop, Steam couldn't run on Windows 8 at all. If Windows 9 or 10 had no desktop, where would Steam run?

Sounds like you are ok with Windows having a console like licensing system. If that is true then it's no wonder you don't see a problem. The rest of us don't Windows to become XBLA.

 

[Turing '88]

Doubt Microsoft will allow that, would they allow Steam on the 360?

This is the problem with getting rid of the desktop. Without the desktop, Steam couldn't run on Windows 8 at all. If Windows 9 or 10 had no desktop, where would Steam run?

Microsoft weren't even allowed to give their own browser preference over others in the EU, there's no way they'd be allowed to shut out all other software stores from Windows.

Even if they were able to get away with it, Microsoft are making a point of not alienating their old customers. Removing the traditional desktop would just guarantee people go to Linux. Only way they'd do that is if Surface became the next iPhone and made Microsoft enough money for them to forget about us PC users.