Obesity Discrimination

[loc978]

I say the social stigma is deserved in most cases, and should be treated similarly to being a junkie of any other kind. I also say we should help people who are willing to be helped, and not charge them for it... but I guess I'm just a pinko-liberal bastard.

Also, the BMI standard for obese? Totally arbitrary and ridiculous. At my fittest with a body fat around 10%, I was obese according to BMI. Now, I consider myself slightly out-of-shape with a little bit of a belly, and BMI tells me I'm healthy. Height/weight is a terrible indicator of health, and goes to show just how impersonal and ineffective health care is in the US.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

And being fat doesn't harm your family?

No. How do you figure?

A child doesn't have a higher risk to have health problems if his/her mother was obese during pregnancy?

Just by virtue of Mom being fat? No.

Sure, if she lived on junk food (and we all know mainstream society automatically conflates fatness with living on junk food), that could be a risk factor. And fat women are more likely to diet, which could be a risk factor.

But not just by virtue of Mom being fat.

 

[rutger5000]

And being fat doesn't harm your family?

No. How do you figure?

A child doesn't have a higher risk to have health problems if his/her mother was obese during pregnancy?

Just by virtue of Mom being fat? No.

Sure, if she lived on junk food (and we all know mainstream society automatically conflates fatness with living on junk food), that could be a risk factor. And fat women are more likely to diet, which could be a risk factor.

But not just by virtue of Mom being fat.

First there is a difference between being fat and being obese. What most people consider to be fat, is usually not unhealthy. Obesity is a different story.
Well I always believed that children have a higher chance to suffer from diabetes, if their mother was obese during pregnancy. But too be honest I've never read a scientific report backing up that claim. So I could be wrong about that.
Theoretically being fat wouldn't be harmfull for your family, but in practice we see that children of obese people are more likely to obese themselves and suffer from diabetes. But here I must admit that there is only a correlation between obese parents and unhealthy children, not a causation. So one could say this argument holds little merrit.
Being fat can very well be caused by genetics, and I wouldn't link it to junk food. Being obese is a different story. Of course there are many exceptions, but in most cases I suspect junk food to be the cause of obesity. I have no scientific data to back this up, but still I find it hard to believe that healthy diet won't be effective against obesity in most cases.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

First there is a difference between being fat and being obese. What most people consider to be fat, is usually not unhealthy. Obesity is a different story.

Well, here's the problem with that: While when you hear the word "obesity," the image that springs to mind is probably the "fat candid shots" that you see on the news? The actual clinical definition is "a body-mass index over 30."

In other words, a six-foot guy is considered "obese" if he weighs 220# or more. Nothing whatsoever to do with muscle tone, cardiovascular health, or even if he's actually fat.

Well I always believed that children have a higher chance to suffer from diabetes, if their mother was obese during pregnancy. But too be honest I've never read a scientific report backing up that claim. So I could be wrong about that.
Theoretically being fat wouldn't be harmfull for your family, but in practice we see that children of obese people are more likely to obese themselves and suffer from diabetes. But here I must admit that there is only a correlation between obese parents and unhealthy children, not a causation. So one could say this argument holds little merrit.

There are correlations, true. But you'll find that the negative effects of dieting are usually either acknowledged and then "mysteriously" dismissed as irrelevant, or left out of the equation altogether. And that almost no one talks about just trying to adopt a healthier lifestyle without worrying about your weight.

Being fat can very well be caused by genetics, and I wouldn't link it to junk food. Being obese is a different story. Of course there are many exceptions, but in most cases I suspect junk food to be the cause of obesity. I have no scientific data to back this up, but still I find it hard to believe that healthy diet won't be effective against obesity in most cases.

And that would be all well and good...if we weren't talking about a "condition" that's defined entirely by a height-to-weight ratio.

 

[Jeremy Meadows]

There is fat, then there is obese. There is a coworker of mine who is isn't even in his twenties who is almost 7 tall. But he's also like twice my weight so he's fat. But the person riding around in our store carts whos sides flaps are past the seat of the chairs?....MAN THE HARPOONS! I am very uncaring for the obese (actually obese, not the stupid medical standerds) or morbidlly obese. No body gets that big if they are even trying to live right.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

There is fat, then there is obese. There is a coworker of mine who is isn't even in his twenties who is almost 7 tall. But he's also like twice my weight so he's fat. But the person riding around in our store carts whos sides flaps are past the seat of the chairs?....MAN THE HARPOONS!

Except the "stupid medical standards" are the definition of the term. You may draw a distinction; the medical industry doesn't.

I am very uncaring for the obese (actually obese, not the stupid medical standerds) or morbidlly obese. No body gets that big if they are even trying to live right.

Nonsense. Something could have gone awry with their body chemistry.

Also, have you ever considered that some of the people using carts might have some disability that not only would have required the use of the cart even if they weren't fat, but resulted in the weight gain to begin with?

Then again, the "man the harpoons" comment suggests that you wouldn't care one way or the other.

 

[OctoH]

If a person's weight does not interfere in their ability to do their job, or more importantly in my ability to do my job, I generally will not care. Minor inconveniences (like taking my armrest on a plane) irritate me, but I will not lambast someone because of it.

 

[ccggenius12]

Being overweight in America is as common as it is because healthy stuff is more expensive than crap. As the average median income decreases, people are getting fatter because they can't afford not to be. They can't work it off because exercise is for people with free time.
That being said, I believe that people who CHOOSE to be fat haven't any legs to stand on when they're discriminated against. (And if they keep up with that lifestyle, that statement could become less metaphorical and more literal.)
Of course, I could be a touch biased, I'm a small guy. I hate that instead of equal distribution of space, I have to be crammed in so the guy with the elastic waistband can sit on the bus. Armrests on a plane or in the movie theater? I can't even see them under the people I'm stuck sitting between.
I guess what I'm getting at is, this world is built for people who aren't that big. I mean this literally. For example, buildings in the older parts of New York are small. I honestly don't even know how a fat person would physically be able to reach the bathrooms in some of these places, I had trouble getting to them. Now either we renovate the world so everyone can be more comfortable, or these people conform. One option costs a lot less than the other, just sayin'.

 

[Suave Charlie]

I used to be fat but then I got in good shape through effort, I have approximately zero sympathy for fat people who don't make an effort to lose weight.
As far as Obese goes then I feel it should be judged considering the medical implications of obesity which goes on to affect the NHS so it could be argued that it's costing the taxpayer.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I used to be fat but then I got in good shape through effort, I have approximately zero sympathy for fat people who don't make an effort to lose weight.

ITT: it's impossible for anyone to have done the same thing you did and not reached a socially acceptable weight. Because everyone's bodies work the same, and you can learn everything about a person's habits just by looking at them, right?

As far as Obese goes then I feel it should be judged considering the medical implications of obesity which goes on to affect the NHS so it could be argued that it's costing the taxpayer.

There are no "medical implications" of having a body-mass index above 30 (which is the definition of "obesity"). Body-mass index is a weight-to-height ratio, not a measure of muscle tone, body composition, or cardiovascular health.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

 

[Jeremy Meadows]

There is fat, then there is obese. There is a coworker of mine who is isn't even in his twenties who is almost 7 tall. But he's also like twice my weight so he's fat. But the person riding around in our store carts whos sides flaps are past the seat of the chairs?....MAN THE HARPOONS!

Except the "stupid medical standards" are the definition of the term. You may draw a distinction; the medical industry doesn't.

I am very uncaring for the obese (actually obese, not the stupid medical standerds) or morbidlly obese. No body gets that big if they are even trying to live right.

Nonsense. Something could have gone awry with their body chemistry.

Also, have you ever considered that some of the people using carts might have some disability that not only would have required the use of the cart even if they weren't fat, but resulted in the weight gain to begin with?

Then again, the "man the harpoons" comment suggests that you wouldn't care one way or the other.

That's why I think the medical definition needs to be a little less strict. Hell by their standerds my dad has just past the line of "obese" even though hes not, nor does he have the problems obese people have.

As I stated there is fat and there is morbidly obese. Something can happen to a person where they would gain weight. They do not gain morbid obese from it. Espcially if they are trying to do whatever they can to not be obese. Your body doens't just explode with fat cells overnight. You have to be activily not doing anything to get that fat. Also if they can waddle they big butts into the store from the parking lot, they can walk through the store just fine.

Heck if I had a obese person have to sit down in the isles every couple of minutes because he wanted to walk to do his shopping instead of riding around I'd give that applause and tell him that that's awesome. You can always tell about people in this case. If they are morbid obese, riding a cart, missing a foot, yet still are grabbing custurd, fried chicken, or whatever why should I have any sympathy for that person. They don't care about themselves. Why should I?

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

That's why I think the medical definition needs to be a little less strict. Hell by their standerds my dad has just past the line of "obese" even though hes not, nor does he have the problems obese people have.

As I stated there is fat and there is morbidly obese. Something can happen to a person where they would gain weight. They do not gain morbid obese from it. Espcially if they are trying to do whatever they can to not be obese. Your body doens't just explode with fat cells overnight. You have to be activily not doing anything to get that fat.

First of all: if "obesity," as currently defined, is a flawed concept, what makes you think "morbid obesity" isn't?

And yet, you still keep throwing the concept around as if it means the "candid fatties" on the news, or someone at the grocery store whom you considered disgustingly fat.

Also: aside from the fact that you're still wrong (I believe I mentioned chemical imbalance already) I never said "overnight."

Also if they can waddle they big butts into the store from the parking lot, they can walk through the store just fine.

Heck if I had a obese person have to sit down in the isles every couple of minutes because he wanted to walk to do his shopping instead of riding around I'd give that applause and tell him that that's awesome.

You can always tell about people in this case. If they are morbid obese, riding a cart, missing a foot, yet still are grabbing custurd, fried chicken, or whatever why should I have any sympathy for that person.

I've got a little project for you: For about the next month, pay attention to people at the grocery store. Pay attention to how many people are fat and conforming to your stereotype here, and how many people are only in one category or the other.

The results might surprise you.

They don't care about themselves. Why should I?

Contempt is not indifference. Considering the stereotyping, the dehumanizing comments, and so on...guess which one you're expressing in spades here?

 

[Nemesis729]

I've never really seen anyone discriminate against obese people, I weighed 265 lbs last year (I'm down to 220 and still shrinking ) But when I was 265 people didn't really make fun of me to much. There are always some assholes that feel the need to bring other people down, but I always ignored them. The biggest problem with being so fat was girls never gave me a chance, that's actually what motivated me to lose all the weight XD

 

[Jeremy Meadows]

isn't[/i]?

And yet, you still keep throwing the concept around as if it means the "candid fatties" on the news, or someone at the grocery store whom you considered disgustingly fat.

Also: aside from the fact that you're still wrong (I believe I mentioned chemical imbalance already) I never said "overnight."

I've got a little project for you: For about the next month, pay attention to people at the grocery store. Pay attention to how many people are fat and conforming to your stereotype here, and how many people are only in one category or the other.

The results might surprise you.

[/quote]Contempt is not indifference. Considering the stereotyping, the dehumanizing comments, and so on...guess which one you're expressing in spades here?[/quote]

I said it was too strict. Not completly flawed. People in medicne or health care will tell me it's like that because as soon as you hit those numbers that's when the medical problems happen or something along those lines. And are you seriously trying to argue that nothing is wrong with morbid obeseisty? I don't use #'s of pounds to decide who has finally crossed over from normal to obese or obese to morbid. You just can tell by looking.

And since I've already been working there over a year I've seen the enough of these people to know the difference between someone who is obese but is either too busy with work, kids, etc to do anything about it. And the morbid obese who need a whip master to get them into shape because there is no excuse for that. Now if I wouldn't get fired for coming up and asking all sorts of personal questions for a surey then yeah I'd take you up on that and have exact results for you.

And I hate what they do, not them as a person. There is a difference. I hate and will rant and spew forth all kinds of stuff about how my best friend/brother is ruining his life and how his completly ingrnoant to it. But does that mean i hate him? Of course not.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I said it was too strict. Not completly flawed. People in medicne or health care will tell me it's like that because as soon as you hit those numbers that's when the medical problems happen or something along those lines.

And this proves that it's "not completely flawed" exactly how?

As I pointed out earlier: yes, the medical industry would be entirely motivated by altruism in a perfect world. Unfortunately, in this one, the diet industry and pharmaceutical companies have a lot of pull. Keeping people worried about their weight is profitable.

And are you seriously trying to argue that nothing is wrong with morbid obeseisty? I don't use #'s of pounds to decide who has finally crossed over from normal to obese or obese to morbid. You just can tell by looking.

Wat.

No. I'm arguing that "morbid obesity" is a meaningless concept.

Yes, it's possible to make educated guesses about someone's overall health based on observation. But let me explain, again: The very concept of "obesity" reduces all of a person's health issues to--and blames them entirely on--their being fat. Or rather, on their being heavy, seeing as it doesn't take body composition into account. (Won't even go into how focusing on extremes/stereotypes is kind of a red herring.)

And since I've already been working there over a year I've seen the enough of these people to know the difference between someone who is obese but is either too busy with work, kids, etc to do anything about it. And the morbid obese who need a whip master to get them into shape because there is no excuse for that. Now if I wouldn't get fired for coming up and asking all sorts of personal questions for a surey then yeah I'd take you up on that and have exact results for you.

And I hate what they do, not them as a person. There is a difference. I hate and will rant and spew forth all kinds of stuff about how my best friend/brother is ruining his life and how his completly ingrnoant to it. But does that mean i hate him? Of course not.

Really, I'm reminded of every time I've heard someone say "I'm not (prejudiced), but..."

I said "observation," not "personal questions." Like it or not, most of us don't pay attention to our surroundings as much as we'd like to think, unless we go out of our way to do so. And we all make snap judgments at times.

You, however, don't even seem to consider that you might be making snap judgments about people you find unsightly. And you not only body-police and fat-shame without a second thought, but...well, the boldfaced part. Not even gonna go there.

All in all, it's pretty clear that for all your talk of loving the sinner and hating the sin, you do hold the "sinners" in contempt.

Please watch this video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XhTA4xOxCc&list=UUJm5yR1KFcysl_0I3x-iReg&index=1&feature=plcp]. Focus especially on the part between 3:01 and 3:18, but watch the whole thing. You might learn something.

 

[Marowit]

I know I discriminate against the Obese. Don't get me wrong, being a medical student, these people will be the vast majority of the people I see as a practicing physician *cough cough* so the business side of me doesn't mind them. Being fat is probably the only thing worse for you, other than smoking, than chronic stress.

On the other hand I just find it so irresponsible of them - there are so many co-morbidities that go along with being obese that our health care system is literally splintering under the weight of their problems, all puns intended.

In my mind, being obese is such a terrible thing, again not for me as a M.D. 'cause I get to bill your fat ass for being sick, but because it robs resources from the system as a whole. Just go ahead and try and compile the costs of obesity, type-II diabetes, CVD, etc...and not only will you have a publishable paper, you'll have a number so large it'll leave your head spinning.

I dunno, go ahead, call me whatever may come, but seeing it from the providers point of view it's mind boggling that people voluntarily eat the shit they do, and then are surprised when they are discriminated against for being so irresponsible - most people, and states for that matter, don't have a problem discriminating against something that's in all likelihood not as bad for you, smoking.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I know I discriminate against the Obese. Don't get me wrong, being a medical student, these people will be the vast majority of the people I see as a practicing physician *cough cough* so the business side of me doesn't mind them. Being fat is probably the only thing worse for you, other than smoking, than chronic stress.

On the other hand I just find it so irresponsible of them - there are so many co-morbidities that go along with being obese that our health care system is literally splintering under the weight of their problems, all puns intended.

In my mind, being obese is such a terrible thing, again not for me as a M.D. 'cause I get to bill your fat ass for being sick, but because it robs resources from the system as a whole. Just go ahead and try and compile the costs of obesity, type-II diabetes, CVD, etc...and not only will you have a publishable paper, you'll have a number so large it'll leave your head spinning.

I dunno, go ahead, call me whatever may come, but seeing it from the providers point of view it's mind boggling that people voluntarily eat the shit they do, and then are surprised when they are discriminated against for being so irresponsible - most people, and states for that matter, don't have a problem discriminating against something that's in all likelihood not as bad for you, smoking.

So. As a future doctor, what do you say to the studies [http://www.nutritionj.com/content/10/1/9] put forth by Bacon, et al., then?

 

[Gormech]

I don't have a problem with 'large' people. I only have issues when they blatantly ignore the fact that their size is possibly an issue. I'm not talking health wise, I'm talking about a narrow hallway and some idiot thinking that they can walk down the middle and be rightly offended if I make light contact trying to get past.

 

[Marowit]

On the other hand I just find it so irresponsible of them - there are so many co-morbidities that go along with being obese that our health care system is literally splintering under the weight of their problems, all puns intended.

So. As a future doctor, what do you say to the studies [http://www.nutritionj.com/content/10/1/9] put forth by Bacon, et al.?

I'll read through the article and let you know - my first criticism is it's a review article...those aren't generally the best places to get real data.

2nd is that I'm not encouraging Dieting, as paradoxical as that sounds. I'm talking about not eating a cheese burger from McDs, a 64oz Coke, and fries. As a reference, I'm a med student, and I eat ~4,000cals/day. So I'm pretty sedentary for 8-10hrs a day, but I do workout for 90-120mins most days, and clock in at 6foot/185lbs.

If you eat a salad, a piece of chicken/pork/turkey/red meat you cook yourself, some veggies, and a glass of milk/beer/wine/water, whatever is considered a healthy diet, and are still "obese," then I have no problems with that, and research I've read indicates that you won't either.

I think BMI's are a load of crap.

I know I was overweight most of my H.S./College career due to being an athlete, and am still on the boarder of that BMI designation due to residual-muscle.

That being said, the vast, vaaaaaaaaaaaaast, majority of obese people in the US are not overweight/obese due to those reasons above (natural weight, muscle mass, falsely-imposed-societal-norms)...they are overweight/obese due to eating shit, and mostly high sugar diets, which are starting to look like they are even worse for you than high-fat diets...everything in moderation ppl! That brings up a whole other discussion about the transition from a high-fat, but low volume, diet to a high-volume, low fat (but high sugar) diet which transitioned in around 1980-blah, but I digress...

The dangerous things about studies, similar to the one you linked above, is people then use them as a rational for eating crap. 'Oh, I just am a larger person, so I'm going to eat a 5500Kcal dinner...' No, you sat at a computer most of the day, you should not be eating a bunch of fried crap from Applebee's, and using a study like this to justify you're large-boned-ness...

edit: one of the semi-functional ways to see how a paper was accepted by the broader scientific community is to go to google scholar, and type in the name of the article. Then you can see how many times it was cited. The article above was 42-times. For a similar, other-side-of-the-issue-paper from approximately the same year, it's up over 1000.

I did find their, "Intuitive eating" argument interesting though, as it's how I eat. The problem is when people have been socialized to have their diet intuitively lead them towards fast-food and other terrible things for them. However, I'm not sure how you could reconcile that in research study.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I'll read through the article and let you know - my first criticism is it's a review article...those aren't generally the best places to get real data.

Last I checked, most of the fat scare is made up of review articles (often with the data cooked to produce the results that the sponsors want to see). And yet, no one questions the validity of those.

2nd is that I'm not encouraging Dieting, as paradoxical as that sounds. I'm talking about not eating a cheese burger from McDs, a 64oz Coke, and fries. As a reference, I'm a med student, and I eat ~4,000cals/day. So I'm pretty sedentary for 8-10hrs a day, but I do workout for 90-120mins most days, and clock in at 6foot/185lbs.

If you eat a salad, a piece of chicken/pork/turkey/red meat you cook yourself, some veggies, and a glass of milk/beer/wine/water, whatever is considered a healthy diet, and are still "obese," then I have no problems with that, and research I've read indicates that you won't either.

I think BMI's are a load of crap.

We're in agreement on that much, then.

But let's not forget that when faced with a patient who registers as "fat," all too many doctors are likely to jump to conclusions about the patient's habits and prescribe weight loss as a cure for all that ails them. And that's usually going to include some sort of highly-restricted and probably unbalanced diet.

I know I was overweight most of my H.S./College career due to being an athlete, and am still on the boarder of that BMI designation due to residual-muscle.

That being said, the vast, vaaaaaaaaaaaaast, majority of obese people in the US are not overweight/obese due to those reasons above (natural weight, muscle mass, falsely-imposed-societal-norms)...they are overweight/obese due to eating shit, and mostly high sugar diets, which are starting to look like they are even worse for you than high-fat diets...everything in moderation ppl! That brings up a whole other discussion about the transition from a high-fat, but low volume, diet to a high-volume, low fat (but high sugar) diet which transitioned in around 1980-blah, but I digress...

The dangerous things about studies, similar to the one you linked above, is people then use them as a rational for eating crap. 'Oh, I just am a larger person, so I'm going to eat a 5500Kcal dinner...' No, you sat at a computer most of the day, you should not be eating a bunch of fried crap from Applebee's, and using a study like this to justify you're large-boned-ness...

As I might have mentioned earlier: I've studied up quite a bit on the matter myself.

Yes, people eat crap. It should be noted, however, that this is especially true of poor people who either can't afford anything that's not crap, or live where decent food is not available [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert].

And not only would I like to see a source on "the vast majority" of fat people being fat because they eat crap (keep in mind that just because "everyone knows" something doesn't necessarily make it accurate, especially if social stigmas[footnote]As far as mainstream culture is concerned, "fat" never just means "fat." It means lazy, dirty, undisciplined, probably not too quick on the uptake, possibly ill-tempered to boot, and all-around disgusting. And this goes double if you're female; after all, being eye candy is still (to some degree) treated as a civic duty for women. [/footnote] are involved), but not everyone who lives on crap is necessarily fat. (It should also be pointed out that weight studies, until fairly recently, focused almost exclusively on the middle class, and the white middle class at that.)

The idea that fat people are somehow unaware or in denial (although it's another of those things that "everyone knows") sounds a bit dubious, considering that there is the aforementioned stigma.[footnote]Hell, even if only Hollywood, Madison Avenue, or my father would call you fat, you're likely to be at least somewhat neurotic about your body, and possibly still subject to that pesky stigma.[/footnote] (See: the high correlation between being fat and being a lifetime dieter.)

And above all? I've still yet to see any proof that the weight-loss-focused approach that's the default is at all superior to the health-at-every-size approach (that is, focused on muscle tone, cardiovascular health, and so on).