On Gaymers and Cons

[DudeistBelieve]

I laughed and laughed and laughed. You'll probably want to add a touch more to your post so you don't get dinged for low content. See you 'round the forum!

Thanks, I think you delivered the point far better than I did.

Ya know... *sigh*

That privilege stuff is really just a broad generalization. One that was enough to make me feel alienated enough that I didn't want to join/help/endorse the GSA in high school. Doesn't just go for the gay thing either, goes for a lot of things.

Everybody has problems. No one is born with acceptance on their back. Everyone feels alienated. Rich, poor, black, asian, whatever.

It's just one of those "Oh you think you got it hard?" blech. Doesn't bring people together, just drives them to be further segregated. Us vs Them. They couldn't possibly understand us and our problems, that line of thinking.

Feminism has a great concept called "the kyriarchy" (from the Greek word kyrios, meaning Lord or Master), which is a way to analyse our current society as a system of interlocking oppression. In it, one integrates racism, sexism, homophobia, classism and all the other -isms and -phobias as a network-like pyramid of oppression. What you're saying amounts to "the kyriarchy is okay because most of us are oppressed one way or another". And that's just tragic, really, because it's the best way to keep us all feeling feeling awful and keeping our society from improving.

Just because most of us are victims of the kyriarchy in one way or another doesn't mean that we should put each other down. It means we should help each other instead.

Um, no not what I said at all. I didn't say it was okay at all. <.<

You did however (by dismissing discussion of Straight privilege and queer safe spaces within the gaming community as exclusionary "Us vs. them" "Driving segregation" stuff) basically say is that because everyone has problems if you try to fix any problems without trying to fix all problems you're being unfair.

The existence of Gaymercon doesn't preclude anyone from starting a collective for poor gamers where they can trade and lend their used games and discuss being a gamer whilst being poor. It doesn't preclude a black gamer con or an asian gamer con. Queer gamers identified a problem within wider Gaming subculture: namely that many queer gamers *Do Not Feel Safe* in the wider gaming subculture. They proposed a solution: The creation of a specific safe space for themselves. There shouldn't be a controversy over this.

I, and I feel confident in representing a vast majority of the queer gaming community with this, long for a time where queerness is normalised to the point where the notion of a specific 'queer' gaming convention seems quaint and obsolete. We're not separatists. The point remains though that *we're not there yet*. Sure we'll push for greater acceptance within wider gaming culture, but until we get there, for goodness sake let us have our sandbox. It's not hurting anyone.

And I don't care about this con, that con. I don't go to cons. I don't care about cons.

I think talking in terms of privilege turns more people away from the cause of making everyone feel on the same page. I'm speaking from personal experience, I'm really very progressive towards sexuality. Don't even believe in the concept of physical gender. but I attended one GSA meeting and I felt the same way I did the time I attended a mass at church: Like I was a black man at a motherfuckin' klukluxklan rally. It does create an us vs them thing, and that doesn't help towards getting everyone on the same page.

 

[Abomination]

The question being asked is still - why is this required?

And here is the answer: it isn't required. I have seen no mandate requiring it. This fulfills no needs.

Asking why it's required or needed misses the point of wants. IE: This is something some people want to do.

If it isn't required, if it isn't fulfilling some purpose then WHY is it happening at all?

There -must- be a reason and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it.

I hate to break it to you but there doesn't have to be any underlying reason or purpose for it. Some people just want this and apparently they find whatever exists now insufficient at fulfilling that want.

Everything has a cause.

I want to know what prompted this event. How have homosexuals been treated at previous non-homosexual focused gaming conventions?

I am not asking to prevent Gaymer X, I am asking so I know what issues there are at the universal gaming conventions.

 

[Darken12]

And I don't care about this con, that con. I don't go to cons. I don't care about cons.

I think talking in terms of privilege turns more people away from the cause of making everyone feel on the same page. I'm speaking from personal experience, I'm really very progressive towards sexuality. Don't even believe in the concept of physical gender. but I attended one GSA meeting and I felt the same way I did the time I attended a mass at church: Like I was a black man at a motherfuckin' klukluxklan rally. It does create an us vs them thing, and that doesn't help towards getting everyone on the same page.

Being privileged isn't anyone's fault. Nobody chooses to be privileged, just like nobody chooses to be oppressed or underprivileged. It's something that society thrusts into us when we're born and we all continue to go along with it because of cultural inertia. Now that doesn't give people the right to treat you badly, but you also can't deny that you do have things easier than LGBT people just by virtue of not being like them. Just because you don't like these advantages you have over them doesn't mean they don't exist.

I'm a white male, and I have to deal with the fact that I have race and gender privilege. In the future, because of my choice of career, it's possible I will also have class privilege over a great deal of people. And even if I don't, I still have class privilege over the homeless and the poor. I have to accept these things facts and try to be aware of them. Not because I can get rid of them, but because I know that being conscious of one's privilege reminds us of people who have it worse.

 

[Brainwreck]

Oh look, a thing.

...nah, can't muster the ability to take interest. It's probably the alcohol.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

And I don't care about this con, that con. I don't go to cons. I don't care about cons.

I think talking in terms of privilege turns more people away from the cause of making everyone feel on the same page. I'm speaking from personal experience, I'm really very progressive towards sexuality. Don't even believe in the concept of physical gender. but I attended one GSA meeting and I felt the same way I did the time I attended a mass at church: Like I was a black man at a motherfuckin' klukluxklan rally. It does create an us vs them thing, and that doesn't help towards getting everyone on the same page.

Being privileged isn't anyone's fault. Nobody chooses to be privileged, just like nobody chooses to be oppressed or underprivileged. It's something that society thrusts into us when we're born and we all continue to go along with it because of cultural inertia. Now that doesn't give people the right to treat you badly, but you also can't deny that you do have things easier than LGBT people just by virtue of not being like them. Just because you don't like these advantages you have over them doesn't mean they don't exist.

I'm a white male, and I have to deal with the fact that I have race and gender privilege. In the future, because of my choice of career, it's possible I will also have class privilege over a great deal of people. And even if I don't, I still have class privilege over the homeless and the poor. I have to accept these things facts and try to be aware of them. Not because I can get rid of them, but because I know that being conscious of one's privilege reminds us of people who have it worse.

It's a gross generalization to just assume someone else has had it easy for those reasons.

 

[Loonyyy]

I'll be that guy, because frankly, Grey hasn't thought this through. Shaolin monks feel that their temples serve their religious needs. Women (And men) feel that separate bathrooms serve their desire for privacy. A separate con for gay gamers serves -dumb silence-.

What does it serve? A presentation of games from a homosexual viewpoint? Games like this are certainly in the minority (And I'd certainly be interested in them), but those are interesting to everyone, so why would you show them there? A place away from discrimination? Then it's our problem, and we need to kick the "homophobes" out, and preferably in the nuts too. Neither of these are served by the separate con.

Honestly, it makes as little sense as "Black History Month". It's not just their history, and gaming is not just their thing. It's all of our thing, and understanding it together is far more valuable than drawing the lines.

I mean, really, what's the difference in the hobby between a gay gamer and a straight one? They choose a difference robo-romance in Mass Effect? It's like making games about pink unicorns and calling those "Girl games", and then making the distinction that the shooters and the medieval combat and the RPGs aren't for girl gamers, because apparently they're different because reasons.

All cons should be safe spaces for everyone.

 

[Darken12]

It's a gross generalization to just assume someone else has had it easy for those reasons.

Privilege has nothing to do with the overall outcome of your life. Privilege means that society has given you an invisible bag of tools, keys and maps for your journey through life. The more instances of privilege you have, the bigger your bag is (with the biggest bag going to the physically attractive, intelligent, college-educated, rich straight cis white male born into a respected family). Just because your life ended up being crappy doesn't mean you don't have these extra advantages that other people don't have. It's entirely possible that a transgendered lesbian of colour may have had a better life than you, but it's undeniable that you had far more invisible tools at your disposal than her along the way.

 

[Andy Shandy]

Ok this thread got out of hand fast, it is getting challenging to keep up.

That must be the understatement of, admittedly, this very early year. XD

Ok, everyone, important question time:

Is this Con banning non-gay people from attending? (Answer: NO)


If the gay culture is not your thing, then give the convention a pass. All these complaints almost feel like people are afraid that having too many conventions will somehow deplete the non-renewable convention resource! (Hint: it won't, you can have a theoretical infinite number of conventions with infinite themes, given enough geek critical mass)

Discussing whether there is a need for this convention or not is exactly the same thing detractors of videogames or comics argue regarding those conventions. Just because you don't get it, it doesn't mean it's worthless.

Gay Culture lol? Isn't the whole idea that lesbians and gays want to be seen as no different than any straight person? I didn't know that sexual orientations had a whole culture reserved for themselves...

No, they want to be "treated" the same way. Integration is about different people living in harmony, not reducing every culture to a homogenous soup. I mean think about what you just said there. Would you suggest the same thing about a Chinese person? That their culture somehow prevents them from being seen as "the same" as everyone else.

This may, in fact probably is, be a daft question but any chance I could be told the reason I was quoted? =P

I'm not sure if you agree with me, disagree, meant to quote Cory instead etc. Just confused is all.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

It's a gross generalization to just assume someone else has had it easy for those reasons.

Privilege has nothing to do with the overall outcome of your life. Privilege means that society has given you an invisible bag of tools, keys and maps for your journey through life. The more instances of privilege you have, the bigger your bag is (with the biggest bag going to the physically attractive, intelligent, college-educated, rich straight cis white male born into a respected family). Just because your life ended up being crappy doesn't mean you don't have these extra advantages that other people don't have. It's entirely possible that a transgendered lesbian of colour may have had a better life than you, but it's undeniable that you had far more invisible tools at your disposal than her along the way.

K. Fine. Nevermind, I've been stuck on "Easy Mode" and not aware of it. <.<

Peoples strengths and weakness are their own individual thing.

 

[Guestyman]

I laughed and laughed and laughed. You'll probably want to add a touch more to your post so you don't get dinged for low content. See you 'round the forum!

Thanks, I think you delivered the point far better than I did.

Ya know... *sigh*

That privilege stuff is really just a broad generalization. One that was enough to make me feel alienated enough that I didn't want to join/help/endorse the GSA in high school. Doesn't just go for the gay thing either, goes for a lot of things.

Everybody has problems. No one is born with acceptance on their back. Everyone feels alienated. Rich, poor, black, asian, whatever.

It's just one of those "Oh you think you got it hard?" blech. Doesn't bring people together, just drives them to be further segregated. Us vs Them. They couldn't possibly understand us and our problems, that line of thinking.

Feminism has a great concept called "the kyriarchy" (from the Greek word kyrios, meaning Lord or Master), which is a way to analyse our current society as a system of interlocking oppression. In it, one integrates racism, sexism, homophobia, classism and all the other -isms and -phobias as a network-like pyramid of oppression. What you're saying amounts to "the kyriarchy is okay because most of us are oppressed one way or another". And that's just tragic, really, because it's the best way to keep us all feeling feeling awful and keeping our society from improving.

Just because most of us are victims of the kyriarchy in one way or another doesn't mean that we should put each other down. It means we should help each other instead.

Um, no not what I said at all. I didn't say it was okay at all. <.<

You did however (by dismissing discussion of Straight privilege and queer safe spaces within the gaming community as exclusionary "Us vs. them" "Driving segregation" stuff) basically say is that because everyone has problems if you try to fix any problems without trying to fix all problems you're being unfair.

The existence of Gaymercon doesn't preclude anyone from starting a collective for poor gamers where they can trade and lend their used games and discuss being a gamer whilst being poor. It doesn't preclude a black gamer con or an asian gamer con. Queer gamers identified a problem within wider Gaming subculture: namely that many queer gamers *Do Not Feel Safe* in the wider gaming subculture. They proposed a solution: The creation of a specific safe space for themselves. There shouldn't be a controversy over this.

I, and I feel confident in representing a vast majority of the queer gaming community with this, long for a time where queerness is normalised to the point where the notion of a specific 'queer' gaming convention seems quaint and obsolete. We're not separatists. The point remains though that *we're not there yet*. Sure we'll push for greater acceptance within wider gaming culture, but until we get there, for goodness sake let us have our sandbox. It's not hurting anyone.

And I don't care about this con, that con. I don't go to cons. I don't care about cons.

I think talking in terms of privilege turns more people away from the cause of making everyone feel on the same page. I'm speaking from personal experience, I'm really very progressive towards sexuality. Don't even believe in the concept of physical gender. but I attended one GSA meeting and I felt the same way I did the time I attended a mass at church: Like I was a black man at a motherfuckin' klukluxklan rally. It does create an us vs them thing, and that doesn't help towards getting everyone on the same page.

Can you expand on what people did there specifically to you to make you feel unwelcome? Did they call you names? Threaten to beat you up? Or did they simply talk about subjects that you couldn't relate to? Were they being oppressive in their sexuality and not allowing you to feel safe in yours? Or were they just talking an awful lot about topics pertinent to a subculture you weren't a member of?

I'm actually quite perplexed here. You're painting this GSA as some kind of horrible dystopian Queeriarchy. I on the other hand am struggling to think of things they could have possibly done because the gamut of things a small group of people can do to affect this kind of fear response without actually breaking the law is rather small.

So there are four questions I'd like answered about this situation you describe.

1: Did this GSA actually *do* anything? Or were you just uncomfortable in a situation because it didn't specifically cater to you?

2:If they indeed did do something bad, are they at all representative of GSAs and other 'safe queer spaces' or are you taking one bad experience and using it to denigrate the entire concept of Queer people having a place where they can feel normal.

3: If they did indeed do something bad, what happened when you left? Did you enter a world that by and large doesn't give a rats about your sexuality and leaves you to your own devices? Or did you enter a world where routinely fundamental unchangable things about yourself are used as insults and your civil rights are threatened institutionally?

4: Given your answers to 1, 2, and 3. What is the big deal with a *severely* marginalised group carving out a *tiny* place for themselves? Does your need to feel at ease in *All* areas of society instead of just *in the overwhelming majority of cases* overwrite our desire to have *at least one*? What about your quality of life is actually affected by Queer people discussing privilege?

 

[-Dragmire-]

Meh, more gaming related conventions sounds good to me. I'd imagine they'd talk and publicize topics around homosexuality that just aren't brought up elsewhere.

I'm not sure if a game with a story starring a homosexual protagonist with homosexuality being a focus would appeal to me, but if this event get big enough then maybe a developer who sees a niche to fill could get some decent funding for a game with exactly that in it that I could try.

I just don't see a down side to having these events.

[sub][sub]this thread feels pretty acidic... [/sub][/sub]

 

[Guestyman]

I'll be that guy, because frankly, Grey hasn't thought this through. Shaolin monks feel that their temples serve their religious needs. Women (And men) feel that separate bathrooms serve their desire for privacy. A separate con for gay gamers serves -dumb silence-.

What does it serve? A presentation of games from a homosexual viewpoint? Games like this are certainly in the minority (And I'd certainly be interested in them), but those are interesting to everyone, so why would you show them there? A place away from discrimination? Then it's our problem, and we need to kick the "homophobes" out, and preferably in the nuts too. Neither of these are served by the separate con.

Honestly, it makes as little sense as "Black History Month". It's not just their history, and gaming is not just their thing. It's all of our thing, and understanding it together is far more valuable than drawing the lines.

I mean, really, what's the difference in the hobby between a gay gamer and a straight one? They choose a difference robo-romance in Mass Effect? It's like making games about pink unicorns and calling those "Girl games", and then making the distinction that the shooters and the medieval combat and the RPGs aren't for girl gamers, because apparently they're different because reasons.

All cons should be safe spaces for everyone.

They should. And I really want them to be. But they're not. Thus the need for a safe space of our own.

 

[Darken12]

It's a gross generalization to just assume someone else has had it easy for those reasons.

Privilege has nothing to do with the overall outcome of your life. Privilege means that society has given you an invisible bag of tools, keys and maps for your journey through life. The more instances of privilege you have, the bigger your bag is (with the biggest bag going to the physically attractive, intelligent, college-educated, rich straight cis white male born into a respected family). Just because your life ended up being crappy doesn't mean you don't have these extra advantages that other people don't have. It's entirely possible that a transgendered lesbian of colour may have had a better life than you, but it's undeniable that you had far more invisible tools at your disposal than her along the way.

K. Fine. Nevermind, I've been stuck on "Easy Mode" and not aware of it. <.<

Peoples strengths and weakness are their own individual thing.

You are completely right when you say that Straight White Male is life's Easy Mode [http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/].

Strengths and weaknesses have nothing to do with privilege. Privilege isn't something you have any control over, it's something society bestows upon you as a reward for being born with the right set of labels.

 

[Guestyman]

snip

Thanks man, that actually means a lot

 

[The Wonder of the net]

Is it possible to get the straight shirt changed to something cooler. Like a black and white rainbow and under it says MiB or just put the shirt up side down because he obviously needs proof to himself he is straight. On note to a gay gaming convention I think the game industry needs to learn how to make gay characters, by oh I don't know maybe HIRE WRITERS! Still think some games could be better with it having a gay character, like finding out Vincent from Catharine is gay. Hmmm Wait trade mark IT'S MY IDEA.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

It's a gross generalization to just assume someone else has had it easy for those reasons.

Privilege has nothing to do with the overall outcome of your life. Privilege means that society has given you an invisible bag of tools, keys and maps for your journey through life. The more instances of privilege you have, the bigger your bag is (with the biggest bag going to the physically attractive, intelligent, college-educated, rich straight cis white male born into a respected family). Just because your life ended up being crappy doesn't mean you don't have these extra advantages that other people don't have. It's entirely possible that a transgendered lesbian of colour may have had a better life than you, but it's undeniable that you had far more invisible tools at your disposal than her along the way.

K. Fine. Nevermind, I've been stuck on "Easy Mode" and not aware of it. <.<

Peoples strengths and weakness are their own individual thing.

You are completely right when you say that Straight White Male is life's Easy Mode [http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/].

Strengths and weaknesses have nothing to do with privilege. Privilege isn't something you have any control over, it's something society bestows upon you as a reward for being born with the right set of labels.

well right on, I'll go back to eating caviar, watching Doctor Who on my solid gold Xbox fully content with my own life then. Maybe I'll take my rocket ship encrusted in diamonds out for a spin later flying over everyones heads pitying them they didn't have the advantages I did and think whimsically how all of life was served to me on a damn silver platter. Do you know I have an asian girlfriend, and because I'm on Easy mode she never poos? She eats all right, she's medically okay, but because she's dating me her bum is magic! White straight male power! EVERYTHING IS FANTASTIC AND I HAVE NO IDEA HOW IT CAN NOT BE THIS EASY FOR ANYBODY ELSE! ITS SO FUCKING SIMPLE TO BE HAPPY EVERYONE! JUST BECOME WHITE, MALE AND LIKE PUSSY! HORRAH! MAYBE I'LL CURE CANCER LATER.

...

I'm just a person. You're just a person. For fucks sake. Telling others "They have it easy" seggrates them, doesn't help put people in the same boat. It "Others" them. Not helping.

 

[sethisjimmy]

Is it possible to get the straight shirt changed to something cooler. Like a black and white rainbow and under it says MiB or just put the shirt up side down because he obviously needs proof to himself he is straight. On note to a gay gaming convention I think the game industry needs to learn how to make gay characters, by oh I don't know maybe HIRE WRITERS! Still think some games could be better with it having a gay character, like finding out Vincent from Catharine is gay. Hmmm Wait trade mark IT'S MY IDEA.

Did you know Erica from that game is transgendered? They hint at it throughout the game but I missed it and was surprised when I found out...

 

[Muspelheim]

Well, amongst other advices I'd like to give any traveller wishing to exist peacefully on these circles of the internet, I'd like to give this;

Privilege is a soar, tender pulp you don't go prodding at unpunished. No matter the circumstances.

 

[Erttheking]

It's a gross generalization to just assume someone else has had it easy for those reasons.

Privilege has nothing to do with the overall outcome of your life. Privilege means that society has given you an invisible bag of tools, keys and maps for your journey through life. The more instances of privilege you have, the bigger your bag is (with the biggest bag going to the physically attractive, intelligent, college-educated, rich straight cis white male born into a respected family). Just because your life ended up being crappy doesn't mean you don't have these extra advantages that other people don't have. It's entirely possible that a transgendered lesbian of colour may have had a better life than you, but it's undeniable that you had far more invisible tools at your disposal than her along the way.

K. Fine. Nevermind, I've been stuck on "Easy Mode" and not aware of it. <.<

Peoples strengths and weakness are their own individual thing.

You are completely right when you say that Straight White Male is life's Easy Mode [http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/].

Strengths and weaknesses have nothing to do with privilege. Privilege isn't something you have any control over, it's something society bestows upon you as a reward for being born with the right set of labels.

You know, after all this time I think I finally figured out why being called priviliged annoys me so much. By saying that straight white men are privileged, people seem to imply that I automatically have it easy. I struggle with anger issues, depression, an inferiority complex, I have difficulty socializing, I'm a major shut in, and I have a rather hellish home life because of a sister that suffers from bi-polar disorder that has gone out of her way to make years of my life very unpleasant. I guess I just don't like people implying that my life is hunky dory when I have to go through a lot of crap.