On Gaymers and Cons

Darken12

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Piecewise said:
1.What cons are you going to where this happens? Honestly, there are guys walking around dressed up as sailor fucking moon and you're the one they're laughing at?

2.How do they know you're gay? I'm asking this because it's not like you have a great big "G" pinned to your shirt. How does it come up? I would think It would only come up in conversation and I don't see why you would be starting that conversation with anyone you don't know anymore then I would be talking about sex with anyone I don't know.

3.Why not just ignore them? Seriously, you're attempting to deal with a systemic problem of ignorance and bigotry by running away from it? Isn't that exactly what they want? I got bullied in school, I'm an atheist in the middle of a god fearing red state and I realize that being in a place full of people who think you should burn in hell for eternity is annoying but you do one of two things: You either ignore them because they're idiots or you vent some bile in their face and let them know that you're not going to go away just because they don't like you.
1. Never been to a con, they don't do them where I live. But for what I've heard by other LGBT people, they all have their anecdotes. I'd ask other people to chime in, since all the stuff I could bring up aren't things I've experienced myself.

2. Uh, PDA? It's a thing that happens between normal young couples. They hold hands, they stand close together, they might even kiss. All those things are clear signs of being at least bi, if not gay. Also transexuals. They don't always pass perfectly, particularly when they're in costumes. Also gossip. You go with someone who knows you're gay, who feels obligated to spread that for one reason or the other. Also some LGBT people fall squarely into the trite old stereotypes you see on TV and you can safely assume that yup, that butch woman really is a lesbian and that effeminate guy really is gay. It's a hotly debated topic within the LGBT community, but it happens. Also, people can out themselves by making comments that have nothing to do with sex, such as speaking of their boyfriends, getting caught staring at a booth babe/promotional poster, or saying "Nathan Drake looked pretty cute in the last game."

There are many, many different ways people can find out you're LGBT. You don't need the T-shirt.

3. People aren't machines of endless endurance. When you get constantly bombarded from all angles and you have to be tense and on guard, watching what you say and how others react all the time, or else risk facing social ridicule or outright violence, it can get pretty devastating over time. Like the weather that erodes a cliff, eventually you just crumble. There's a reason constant bullying has led to gay teens committing suicide, it's not an overdramatic overreaction, it's something that grinds at you most of the day, every single day. So yeah, it might not be the best idea, but A) That's for the LGBT crowd to decide, and B) I can't blame them for wanting to have one instance of a safe environment where they can find temporary shelter from the constant weather erosion that is society.

Mykal Stype said:
Can someone define "Kyriarchy" clearly? I went on wikipedia to look it up, but I didn't really understand. It was like reading jetpack instructions written in Japanese. I've gotten it somewhat from the context of other people's posts, but not completely.
The origin of kyriarchy comes from feminism, who started using the term 'patriarchy' to talk about how society has historically placed power on men and oppressed women. As issues of race, sexuality, class and the like began to rise in prominence, the feminists coined the term kyriarchy to define the system that connects all forms of society oppression. Kyriarchy is like the patriarchy in the sense that it's an institutionalised form of oppression, only instead of oppressing only women, the kyriarchy oppresses women, people of colour, LGBT people, the disabled, the lower classes and so on. Kyriarchy means "rule of the master", though a better definition would be, perhaps, "rule of dominance". The kyriarchy is a stroke of evil genius, if you think about it, because it not only keeps a large portion of the populace oppressed (much like in times of peasantry vs. aristocracy), but it also ensures that the oppressed keep oppressing each other, so that there isn't a single enemy they can unite against. Under the kyriarchy, a straight black man oppresses a gay white man, who oppresses a straight white woman, who oppresses a straight black woman, who oppresses a straight white man of lower class, who oppresses the straight black man from the beginning. It's an interlocking network of oppression who keeps us all fighting each other and preserving the status quo that only benefits a very small percentage of the population (the age-old aristocracy under another name).
 

OutsiderEX

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Yes! Questioning why there needs to be a homosexual centered gaming convention, rather then just cracking down on homophobia at a regular convention is EXACTLY the same as decades of systematic, brutal religious suppression.

Also, seeing as there has been a rather large push in the LGBT community for mixed-gender facilities and that it has never been an issue of female-only bathrooms, one has to wonder just how knowledgeable the writer was of this strip of current LGBT efforts.
 

Cbargs

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Piecewise said:
Darken12 said:
They want a safe, comfortable space where they can talk about games and do anything else you do on a regular con, only without having to deal with (and I quote myself) "stares, ostracism, rude language, snide remarks, straight privilege, ignorant remarks and all other kinds of perfectly legal but still incredibly uncomfortable bad attitudes." That's it, it's nothing mystifying.
1.What cons are you going to where this happens? Honestly, there are guys walking around dressed up as sailor fucking moon and you're the one they're laughing at?

2.How do they know you're gay? I'm asking this because it's not like you have a great big "G" pinned to your shirt. How does it come up? I would think It would only come up in conversation and I don't see why you would be starting that conversation with anyone you don't know anymore then I would be talking about sex with anyone I don't know.

3.Why not just ignore them? Seriously, you're attempting to deal with a systemic problem of ignorance and bigotry by running away from it? Isn't that exactly what they want? I got bullied in school, I'm an atheist in the middle of a god fearing red state and I realize that being in a place full of people who think you should burn in hell for eternity is annoying but you do one of two things: You either ignore them because they're idiots or you vent some bile in their face and let them know that you're not going to go away just because they don't like you.
1. Homophobia is deeply ingrained in gaming culture; take one look at the online communities and you'll see all kinds of usage of "gay", "queer", "f*g", etc. Its not really the possibility of being directly confronted (though that certainly could happen), but rather the casual homophobia that takes place within the community that attends these conventions.

2. My sexuality, or other gaymers, could come up in a number of ways, for example I could take my boyfriend to a con and someone could ask if I'm here with anyone. A Vvery common question that would reveal one's sexuality. One could be wearing a pride bracelet, or have a bumper sticker, etc. However, one doesn't have to have been identified as a member of the LGBTQ community to start feeling uncomfortable.

3. I don't see the creation of a con like this to be running away. Gaymers will still attends your average cons, but we'll also have one that has more of a focus towards our demographic and culture. It's nice to have a convention in which you don't have to worry about being confronted by homophobes, or deal with slurs being thrown around. As far as ignoring it goes, for some it's harder than others. I can ignore what people say, but still words like F*ggot bring back memories of me being attacked, and I'd rather not have to worry about memories of broken bones coming up while I'm trying to enjoy some video games.
 

Orekoya

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Abomination said:
Orekoya said:
Abomination said:
Orekoya said:
Abomination said:
The question being asked is still - why is this required?
And here is the answer: it isn't required. I have seen no mandate requiring it. This fulfills no needs.

Asking why it's required or needed misses the point of wants. IE: This is something some people want to do.
If it isn't required, if it isn't fulfilling some purpose then WHY is it happening at all?

There -must- be a reason and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it.
I hate to break it to you but there doesn't have to be any underlying reason or purpose for it. Some people just want this and apparently they find whatever exists now insufficient at fulfilling that want.
Everything has a cause.

I want to know what prompted this event. How have homosexuals been treated at previous non-homosexual focused gaming conventions?

I am not asking to prevent Gaymer X, I am asking so I know what issues there are at the universal gaming conventions.
I don't know how to make this clearer: the cause is want. When I say want I mean a desire, a longing, a craving or a wish for some non-necessity. Something a person would like to have. Some group of people felt sufficiently enough that this want wasn't fulfilled by a standard gaming con thus the want remains to the point that they are now willing to pay to make an alternative better-able to cater that want exist and then attend to satisfy that want. Those said persons felt that a gay-friendly gaming con would fulfill that want.

If you're asking for the cause behind the want itself then track down someone attending Gaymer X and ask them why they want to go to such a con.
 

chozo_hybrid

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Orekoya said:
Abomination said:
Orekoya said:
Abomination said:
Orekoya said:
Abomination said:
The question being asked is still - why is this required?
And here is the answer: it isn't required. I have seen no mandate requiring it. This fulfills no needs.

Asking why it's required or needed misses the point of wants. IE: This is something some people want to do.
If it isn't required, if it isn't fulfilling some purpose then WHY is it happening at all?

There -must- be a reason and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it.
I hate to break it to you but there doesn't have to be any underlying reason or purpose for it. Some people just want this and apparently they find whatever exists now insufficient at fulfilling that want.
Everything has a cause.

I want to know what prompted this event. How have homosexuals been treated at previous non-homosexual focused gaming conventions?

I am not asking to prevent Gaymer X, I am asking so I know what issues there are at the universal gaming conventions.
I don't know how to make this clearer: the cause is want. When I say want I mean desire, longing, would like to have or a wish for some non-necessity. Some group of people felt sufficiently enough that their want wasn't fulfilled by a standard gaming con thus the want remains to the point that they are now willing to pay to make it happen and attend to satisfy that want. Those said persons somewhere wanted felt that a gay-friendly gaming con would fulfill that want.

If you're asking for the cause behind the want itself, then track down someone attending Gaymer X and ask them why they want it.
We don't really get any gaming cons in my country, we're too small. But this would be what I would do. Ask someone who goes to the con. I'm trying to get my head around the term "Gaymer", same as I have trouble understanding "Girl Gamer" as we are all just gamers. Why the need for separate titles?

I do however understand the existence of the convention itself, and I'm not gay, but think it's a great idea and I would gladly go to it with friends if we had one over here, just to see another view on things as I like to try expand my views on things.
 

Orekoya

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chozo_hybrid said:
We don't really get any gaming cons in my country, we're too small. But this would be what I would do. Ask someone who goes to the con. I'm trying to get my head around the term "Gaymer", same as I have trouble understanding "Girl Gamer" as we are all just gamers. Why the need for separate titles?

I do however understand the existence of the convention itself, and I'm not gay, but think it's a great idea and I would gladly go to it with friends if we had one over, just to see another view on things as I like to try expand my views on things.
If you want to understand the cause of offsetting terminology then look to the source term. The stereotype that spawned the term "gamer" was a heterosexual male who engaged in this activity while generally living in their parent's basement being an unwashed troglodyte loner. When people thought of gamers, they thought of this:




While the latter portion of that stereotype has faded there is still a tendency to think of gamers as heterosexual males by default. Hence the spawning of differential terms like girl gamer, gaymer and girl gaymer.
 

TomLikesGuitar

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Why can't we all go to the same gaming conventions? It's just reinforcing stereotypes for the sake of fighting the exact same stereotype.

It's like that Day of Silence thing... Where a bunch of losers would infuriate all the teachers by not talking... and then everyone would just up the gay jokes hardcore when they probably wouldn't have even thought about making any gay jokes that day if no one brought it up...

Yeah...

I don't feel left out like some people are saying, I just don't see why we can't all get together for this stuff.

I would welcome a bunch of gay dudes to a convention with open arms...

Sure, there would be the occasion annoying stereotypical flamer guy, but the normal ones would smell SO much better than the average con goer.

I think we should take the obnoxious, forced activist gays and the fat straight slobs who don't use deodorant and "let" them have their own con(s?). Then we can all game as one.
 

Abomination

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Orekoya said:
Abomination said:
Everything has a cause.

I want to know what prompted this event. How have homosexuals been treated at previous non-homosexual focused gaming conventions?

I am not asking to prevent Gaymer X, I am asking so I know what issues there are at the universal gaming conventions.
I don't know how to make this clearer: the cause is want. When I say want I mean a desire, a longing, a craving or a wish for some non-necessity. Something a person would like to have. Some group of people felt sufficiently enough that this want wasn't fulfilled by a standard gaming con thus the want remains to the point that they are now willing to pay to make an alternative better-able to cater that want exist and then attend to satisfy that want. Those said persons felt that a gay-friendly gaming con would fulfill that want.

If you're asking for the cause behind the want itself then track down someone attending Gaymer X and ask them why they want to go to such a con.
Again, WHY do they want it... WHAT is this "want"? Why is a gay-friendly gaming con required? Are regular gaming cons NOT gay friendly? Are they anti-gay? There is an entire convention going on, I shouldn't have to ask someone AT the convention itself.

I haven't attended a gaming convention so I honestly do not know what potential anti-homosexual shenanigans are got up to there. What particular itch does a normal gaming convention not scratch?
 

Darken12

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TomLikesGuitar said:
I don't feel left out like some people are saying, I just don't see why we can't all get together for this stuff.
You don't know because you don't experience it. Instead of saying "Well *I* don't see what the problem is, so let's stop this nonsense", you might want to try listening to the people who experience the actual problems.

TomLikesGuitar said:
Sure, there would be the occasion annoying stereotypical flamer guy, but the normal ones would smell SO much better than the average con goer.

I think we should take the obnoxious, forced activist gays and the fat straight slobs who don't use deodorant and "let" them have their own con(s?). Then we can all game as one.
Those 'annoying flamer guys' and those 'obnoxious forced activist gays' could be pretty damn tired of this attitude and wish to go somewhere where they don't have to take this kind of crap. Just venturing a guess.
 

chozo_hybrid

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Orekoya said:
I'm not sure I buy that, sorry. That may be how it used to be seen, but games are everywhere and the term gamer is simply one who plays games, usually of the video game variety. that's why I don't understand the need to add another label to it just because of ones sexuality or gender, most who I see do it tend to be in your face about that fact, which I just don't get. I see everyone as on the same standing gaming wise, no matter what someone is, or what they play or what system they use.

You don't see Athletes doing this when it comes to sexuality. In fact there's nothing else that comes to mind (to me) in this regard, but that may be the 10 hour shift at work numbing my brain a bit.
 

Darken12

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chozo_hybrid said:
Orekoya said:
I'm not sure I buy that, sorry. That may be how it used to be seen, but games are everywhere and the term gamer is simply one who plays games, usually of the video game variety.
The gaming industry still assumes its default demographic are straight white males. I explain it here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.397621-On-Gaymers-and-Cons?page=7#16241470]. It's not unique to gaming, it pervades most of the entertainment industry, but it's very much a fact.
 

chozo_hybrid

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Darken12 said:
chozo_hybrid said:
Orekoya said:
I'm not sure I buy that, sorry. That may be how it used to be seen, but games are everywhere and the term gamer is simply one who plays games, usually of the video game variety.
The gaming industry still assumes its default demographic are straight white males. I explain it here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.397621-On-Gaymers-and-Cons?page=7#16241470]. It's not unique to gaming, it pervades most of the entertainment industry, but it's very much a fact.
I did read that, and I get where people are coming from to a degree, and yes there is an unfortunately large percentage of the industry that thinks their audience only consists of average white hetero males. But I'm talking the players, the people who enjoy playing the games, not the creators.

The terms that I am talking about are the players, I agree with everything about equality and giving them their own space to be comfortable in as well as being able to join in as an ally (I like the term they chose for that :D) and the con having a name that more or less tells you what it is about makes sense, but why make a term for gay gamers? When they are just gamers, I just have trouble understanding it is all. I'm not seeking to annoy or enrage anyone, I'm just confused on this part.
 

Darken12

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chozo_hybrid said:
I did read that, and I get where people are coming from to a degree, and yes there is an unfortunately large percentage of the industry that thinks their audience consists of average white hetero male. But I'm talking the players, the people who enjoy playing the games, not the creators.

The terms that I am talking about are the players, I agree with everything about equality and giving them their own space to be comfortable in as well as being able to join in as an ally (I like the term they chose for that :D) and the con having a name that more or less tells you what it is about makes sense, but why make a term for gay gamers? When they are just gamers, I just have trouble understanding it is all. I'm not seeking to annoy or enrage anyone, I'm just confused on this part.
Because language is shared. Players share the language with the industry, and having different meanings for the same word gets very confusing. People instinctively agree on the same meaning for vague words precisely to avoid confusion (most of the time, at least), so by necessity, the word 'gamer' gets shared between the players and the industry. The industry thinks 'gamer' means straight white male who likes to game. Most of the people who identify themselves as gamer are straight white males who like to game. So the industry caters to them and the straight white males who like to game band together and establish their subculture.

Women and LGBT people (and perhaps people of colour as well) see that and think "that's not who I am, that's not who they refer to when they say 'gamer', that's not a term that welcomes me on equal standing or caters to my difference in gender, sexuality or race". So why use the same terms when it doesn't apply in anything but the shallowest, most superficial way?
 

chozo_hybrid

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Darken12 said:
Because language is shared. Players share the language with the industry, and having different meanings for the same word gets very confusing. People instinctively agree on the same meaning for vague words precisely to avoid confusion (most of the time, at least), so by necessity, the word 'gamer' gets shared between the players and the industry. The industry thinks 'gamer' means straight white male who likes to game. Most of the people who identify themselves as gamer are straight white males who like to game. So the industry caters to them and the straight white males who like to game band together and establish their subculture.

Women and LGBT people (and perhaps people of colour as well) see that and think "that's not who I am, that's not who they refer to when they say 'gamer', that's not a term that welcomes me on equal standing or caters to my difference in gender, sexuality or race". So why use the same terms when it doesn't apply in anything but the shallowest, most superficial way?
Thank you, that makes so much sense to me now. I appreciate you having the patience to explain that to me, I think I understand why now :D
 

J Tyran

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My position changed from "why do gay people want their own convention" to "its f*****g" sad that gay people need one"

Being treated like dirt by homophobic trash at other existing conventions just isn't right, I can see why they want one with an environment that's a lot less hostile and bigoted.
 

Darken12

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chozo_hybrid said:
Thank you, that makes so much sense to me now. I appreciate you having the patience to explain that to me, I think I understand why now :D
No problem, you were polite, it was the least I could do.

Touching on gamer subculture reminded me of that bit a while back about the female player who got harassed so badly at a tournament that she had to quit, and when the press asked about it, the bystanders (or was it the referee?) said that "it was a normal part of gamer culture". Then we have the Anita Sarkeesian debacle, the use of gay and f*g as common expletives, and that one guy who complained in the BioWare forums about Anders hitting on him when he had selected every single "flirty" dialogue choice with him. Or the people who complained about gay romance being included at all, claiming it would detract resources from other areas of the game, or turn every character into a dull sexually-adaptative unrealistic character, and so on.

With all those instances (and many more that go unmentioned) can you really blame women and LGBT people for wanting to distance themselves from those people?
 

blah118

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Okok so this may be a mite shallow, but I go to these types of events for the same reason others go to certain clubs, to meet somebody.

I'm gay and def not a big partier or "ready to pick somebody up at a bar" type of guy. So going to a gaming convention, which I can feel comfortable around with, knowing full well lots of the attendees will be gay is kinda nice. Oh yah, not having to deal with casual homophobic brats is also a plus.
 

Andy of Comix Inc

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Zhukov said:
It took me at least three looks to notice that the guy in the last panel isn't wearing any pants.

Honestly, I've asked the "why do they want their own con" question myself. Mostly because I don't know what one would do at a gay con that one wouldn't do at a regular con.
Not feel discriminated against, I suppose? These aren't gay-exclusive cons, they're gay focused, much how like a regular gaming con will likely be straight-focused (those booth babes are probably not for lesbians). It's so they have a guaranteed safe place to go and chill and talk without, like, being called a ****** 'r whatever. And people who aren't gay can show up and chill, too. It's not about excluding people. It's about being ultra-inclusive! :D

...dismissing any kind of gay agenda, anyway. >_>

<_<
 

Orekoya

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Darken12 said:
chozo_hybrid said:
I did read that, and I get where people are coming from to a degree, and yes there is an unfortunately large percentage of the industry that thinks their audience consists of average white hetero male. But I'm talking the players, the people who enjoy playing the games, not the creators.

The terms that I am talking about are the players, I agree with everything about equality and giving them their own space to be comfortable in as well as being able to join in as an ally (I like the term they chose for that :D) and the con having a name that more or less tells you what it is about makes sense, but why make a term for gay gamers? When they are just gamers, I just have trouble understanding it is all. I'm not seeking to annoy or enrage anyone, I'm just confused on this part.
Because language is shared. Players share the language with the industry, and having different meanings for the same word gets very confusing. People instinctively agree on the same meaning for vague words precisely to avoid confusion (most of the time, at least), so by necessity, the word 'gamer' gets shared between the players and the industry. The industry thinks 'gamer' means straight white male who likes to game. Most of the people who identify themselves as gamer are straight white males who like to game. So the industry caters to them and the straight white males who like to game band together and establish their subculture.

Women and LGBT people (and perhaps people of colour as well) see that and think "that's not who I am, that's not who they refer to when they say 'gamer', that's not a term that welcomes me on equal standing or caters to my difference in gender, sexuality or race". So why use the same terms when it doesn't apply in anything but the shallowest, most superficial way?
Well didn't you waste a lot of my typing in a reply with this elucidative post.