On Gaymers and Cons

[Darken12]

That article proves that crimes do happen.

What an amazing insight!

Haha what kind of horrible world do you live in? This never* happens.

You make it too easy.

Hey, thanks... not only does your link directly state that it almost never works, but I also found this [http://books.google.com/books?id=pPkRHairg3UC&pg=PA247&lpg=PA247&dq=gay+panic+defense+no+longer+admissible&source=bl&ots=2a2WesrZ38&sig=giQE8vTplI7KcImO3lNR_fvEXD0&hl=en&ei=HlWyTtjsNJObtwfZ4bDkAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false] article from Harvard with a nice amount of statistics to prove me right!

I can link too:

http://www.stonewall.org.uk/at_home/hate_crime_domestic_violence_and_criminal_law/2645.asp

http://www.starobserver.com.au/news/2012/07/03/gay-panic-to-stay/80192

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-rowe/man-acquitted-of-murder-a_b_231748.html

http://www.vcstar.com/news/2011/jul/23/gilliam-attorneys-regrettably-revive-the-gay/

See that trigger at the end?

That last insane thing you said implying that I said you chose to be gay and that gay people are stupid... which, you know... I didn't...

That proves almost every. single. thing. I'm saying.

You WANT me to be anti-gay so you can rise above like a god-damn phoenix of altruism and love. Pathetic.

You said it yourself. I want the fight to be over, and you want it to keep going.

Think about that.

Yes. I will think hard about how you come here, spewing ignorant crap (that you genuinely believe to be true, admittedly), you don't stop to listen when people tell you maybe you don't got the whole story, you keep on bellowing your ever-increasingly extremist views when we keep trying to show you what we're dealing with (while completely blind to the fact that you, who never had to experience any of this, come and tell us that we're just overreacting), and you get angry that I'm just skipping to the inevitable homophobic remarks people like you tend to bandy about. Sorry, I should have let you escalate properly. What was I thinking.

You're the disrespectful asshole here.

You just accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being a bigot.

Yes, I'm the one who came here spewing ignorance, refused to listen to people who actually know what they're talking about, and continued to attack them. I'm the disrespectful one here.

Wtf are you talking about?

I'm not being ignorant at all, what I said is 100 percent true.

Try actually bringing up, you know, some logic to prove me wrong or something.

I brought up logic. Repeatedly. You're just ignoring it.

When I tell you that "This event does not affect you, and you're not part of the group that is concerned with it, therefore your opinion is irrelevant", that's basic logic. When I say "It's offensive to tell a minority to which you don't belong that their fight is over, or trying to educate them in issues of equality when you haven't experienced the inequality that they have experienced (which is also basic logic, since 'you don't know what it's like to be discriminated for being part of Group A because you're not part of Group A' is a tautology)", that's also basic logic.

You're just not listening.

The only thing that bothers me more than soapbox preachers is segregation.

So we have to take all the homophobic crap we face every day and you can't deal with the fact that some people might want to have their own thing where they don't have to take all that crap. Sure, that's fair.

 

[harmypants]

Bethesda does an amazing job with Arcade Gannon, and even Mass Effect did it. Mass Effect kind of made it into too big of an issue though and it turned into a stupid conversation about making everyone in every game gay, which is obviously retarded.

Mass Effect was absolutely ridiculous in that regard.

Gaymer is an unnecessary and stupid term, and I believe its existence is making things worse for the average gay man.

You guys can have the last words, but I'd like to state for the record that I love everyone and want to live in a peaceful world where all races and genders can get along.

It's not about acceptance, it's about integration. The whole idea of this proposed con has nothing at all to do with actual sexuality, it's just to deal with how people use sexuality to define themselves and their products, which in this case are games. It's about allowing 'gaymers' (a term I don't particularly care for, but at least it makes a point) somewhere that they feel integrated and respected, not just tolerated.

Games have always been about 'wanting to be that guy' or 'wanting to bang lara croft' with little middle ground. Very few games actually have respectable gay/lesbian/whatever characters, and games involving these ideas are often terribly done, like mass effect, or induce stupid stereotypes, like ballad of gay tony, in which the straight protagonist has sex in the first mission and works for a fairly overtly gay night club owner.

Games are quite ridiculous in regards to sexuality, but in all honesty people are too.

You guys can have the last words

Stop doing this, everyone. "You guys/if you're not LGBT/whatever else" is not helping anyone else.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

That article proves that crimes do happen.

What an amazing insight!

Haha what kind of horrible world do you live in? This never* happens.

You make it too easy.

You can have the last word on the other stuff, but you took both of those quotes out of context.

Go back and read where I said "This never happens." and what I was replying to.

EDIT:

You guys can have the last words

Stop doing this, everyone. "You guys/if you're not LGBT/whatever else" is not helping anyone else.

I was just referring to the few people I was arguing with.

 

[Darken12]

Stop doing this, everyone. "You guys/if you're not LGBT/whatever else" is not helping anyone else.

It very much helps. It prevents LGBT issues, discussions and events from being overwhelmed and suppressed by people who have no idea what they're talking about. If an LGBT person comes here and sees nothing but a bunch of ignorant straight people saying "This is unfair and segregationist! This is the problem with the LGBT community! This doesn't help equality!" and so on, and they don't see other LGBT people fighting this nonsense, it's possible they might end up agreeing with the ignorant straight people or just giving up altogether because they're alone in their opinion or it's just not worth it. And the more we let this sort of thing happen, the less we accomplish.

We need to establish boundaries with straight people. We can't let them trample over every single discussion, no matter how minor it might be.

You can have the last word on the other stuff, but you took both of those quotes out of context.

Go back and read where I said "This never happens." and what I was replying to.

Yes, I said "And then the police is going to look the other way because I started it and the f*g just got what he deserved." You said "This never happens." I provided examples where LGBT people openly stated that it does happen. The police does look the other way. You said "This proves crimes do happen. What an amazing insight!" so you either completely missed the point of my link or I definitely quoted you right.

 

[The Wooster]

I find it very odd that none of these points about "gaming being more important" came up when we discussed GameChurch [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/9091-The-GameChurch].

 

[harmypants]

It very much helps. It prevents LGBT issues, discussions and events from being overwhelmed and suppressed by people who have no idea what they're talking about.

Then draw the line at people who have no idea what they're talking about, rather than straight people. Beyond that it becomes far too great of a generalisation, and implies that you believe the ideas of all LGBT are infallible and correct, which may not be the case. It might even make you appear less credible than you are, and while I don't believe that anything you've said thus far has been out of order and I certainly agree with almost all of it, any generalisations you (or anyone else) has made certainly hasn't sat well with me.

If an LGBT person comes here and sees nothing but a bunch of ignorant straight people saying "This is unfair and segregationist! This is the problem with the LGBT community! This doesn't help equality!" and so on, and they don't see other LGBT people fighting this nonsense, it's possible they might end up agreeing with the ignorant straight people or just giving up altogether because they're alone in their opinion or it's just not worth it. And the more we let this sort of thing happen, the less we accomplish.

We need to establish boundaries with straight people. We can't let them trample over every single discussion, no matter how minor it might be.

What constitutes an ignorant straight person?
In your opinion, can a straight person support you and your beliefs on the issue, even if they can't have had first hand knowledge on the exact same situation you have?

I'd like to think of myself as a non-ignorant straight person, just from simply not being terribly ignorant as a human being. The only reason I'm posting in this thread is because it relates to me through gaming and homosexuality, given that some of my best friends are gay or lesbian. I understand how they've struggled to become the people they are now, and what it means for them. It depresses me to see how they needed to act to 'fit in', when they really shouldn't need to. It also makes me extremely happy to see them in healthy relationships and comfortable with themselves finally, despite me not being able to achieve that in my own life yet.
Regardless, I've been able to see people who've previously been outcast reintegrate completely and find comfort in what they enjoy about themselves and what they enjoy in life. The relation to gaming is relatively similar in that people are happy to tolerate, but not integrate, not fully accept, and not cater towards.

Why not let 'we' be more than just a group of people from the same sexuality? Why not have it simply be a group of like-minded people?

I hope that given this, I can find it possible to discuss things with you, be that in agreeance or otherwise, and have you not simply shut it down because I'm straight and disagreeing with you. If it was as simple as that, well then I wouldn't be posting.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

Really? Gay pride and rights groups are not examples of 'segregation' and neither is a convention. Just because you aren't the target audience doesn't mean you're being segregated. Also, as someone who grew up openly gay, don't tell me where gay people may or may not feel out of place. I've been abused on the street for daring to walk holding hands with my girlfriend, so bigotry still exists wherever you are, and by extension, these things could also happen at gaming conventions. If you don't like the idea of Gaymercon, don't go. It's that simple.

I know bigotry exists and I never said it was a form of segregation. What I think is that having a gaming convention where the main audience is based on sexuality is just silly. It has literally nothing to do with anything and it's thrown in there for good measure. I know I'll get bitched out for this but a straight con is equally silly, hence why people are so angry about having scantily clad girls run around at a regular con, and would get called out for being politically incorrect.

 

[Mykal Stype]

Can someone define "Kyriarchy" clearly? I went on wikipedia to look it up, but I didn't really understand. It was like reading jetpack instructions written in Japanese. I've gotten it somewhat from the context of other people's posts, but not completely.

Also, to tack back on to topic, gay conventions like these aren't about sexuality, they're about feeling "normal" for a change. Everywhere you go nearly everyone is straight, and even when it's not being talked about, if you're gay, there's always that lingering feeling that you aren't entirely a part of the group, unless the groups you run with are really odd already. At gay oriented conventions, you get to be normal for a change.
If you're a straight male and have any gay friends, go to a gay bar (bar, not club. Big difference). You have to go with a friend so that you don't get hit on, but you can't go with a straight friend as you would have someone on your side. It doesn't matter how liberal you are, you're going to feel weird, even though no one there will actually talk much or at all about their sexuality. And if you want to feel even weirder and more obvious, if you're white you can go to an Asian market. Don't bring an Asian friend for that one. Same feeling, just more pronounced.

I don't really agree. I'm straight; I've gone to a gay bar with a gay friend. I got hit on by less guys than at a regular rave. I wasn't uncomfortable at all, I just said I that I was straight and I was just out for a night with my friend. They understood and that was that.

Also, in my youth, I frequented Chinatown in Toronto all the time. I actually felt pretty welcome, even though I didn't speak Mandarin or Cantonese and I'm white. Most shopkeepers seemed delighted to share their food and culture with me, I actually got some really good prices on some cool rice scroll paintings. I still have them!

Certainly, it was somewhat of a culture shock. I didn't know what everything was (like those cool cubed coconuts with a straw) but I didn't feel like I was unwanted.

Really? That's cool. It's hard to find people that are good in either situation. I guess I should have said "generally" in the post. Once I sent a friend out to get me some red bean paste, and he came back with nothing. He said that he felt so awkward and confused he didn't know what to do. That's obviously an extreme case though. He didn't get much of the red bean ice cream I made.
I also forgot about one of my friends; every person I know that has gone to a gay bar feels odd about it, but my friend likes to go to gay clubs in purple tights and knows every bartender's name at gay bars within a 50 mile radius, but he's special as he played Rocky in The Rocky Horror Picture Show every weekend for three or more years.

Back on topic, this is getting ridiculous. The conversation just repeats itself each page, being the same question and response each time. As I said, the convention isn't about sexuality as much as normalcy. It feels good to be in the majority once in a while.
I can see how it can be hard to understand it even if you are a good ally of gay people as empathy can't go as far as experience. If you are a straight white male with good mental health nobody thinks they have to treat you special; nobody tries to pass laws about you; you aren't a subject on slow news days; you don't have organizations talking about how bad you are; you don't have to explain anything about yourself; and except for in chick flicks in which every guy is stupid, you aren't a caricature in every media that involves you (seriously, gay guy in movies are almost the equivalent of blackface).
Obviously a lot of people ask seriously why Gaymercon or whatever else exist, but those people actually do go out of their way to learn by asking the question, and usually understand easily. The joke in the comic is about people that ask the question with no intention of actually getting an answer, and when they do get an answer, they ignore it as it isn't part of the narrative that they like. It's similar to people that ask "why is there no White History Month?" It's because every month is White History Month, including Black History Month.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I find it very odd that none of these points about "gaming being more important" came up when we discussed GameChurch [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/9091-The-GameChurch].

Maybe because that was a post about some goofy evangelists who had a booth at a major convention? Saying this as someone who is routinely annoyed by street preachers who stand around shouting at people in front of the library at the university I attend, that's a funny story, but there doesn't seem to be much else to it. The discussion was also all of 100 posts, consisting of people having a chuckle at said funny story, compared to the nearly 500 posts in this one of people debating the issue that you brought up (re: why would gay people want their own convention?) I'm really not seeing the connection here. One comic sets out an argument. The other is an anecdote.

Brilliant piece of click bait, by the way. I doubt most of the people posting in here had even heard of Gaymer con before reading the comic.

 

[Orekoya]

Segregation n. - The action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things or being set apart. (Merriam-Webster)

I can do this all day.

Continue to prove my point by quoting the dictionary and providing no reasonable explanation for why this is segregation other than saying it is over and over again? Thank you. Please keep it up all day.

EDIT: Everyone keeps saying that the Gaymer's are segregating themselves. This is true.

Thus this is segregation.

So if everyone says it (which they aren't) then it becomes fact? Good to know that reality works that way.

Segregation is when you acknowledge a difference between things and separate one group.

I can't believe you quote the dictionary then proceed to define it in your own words incorrectly. I mean the definition doesn't state anyone has to acknowledge any differences before the act of separating. Also no effort is being made to separate people by the con itself so it doesn't match the real definition or your poor interpretation.

Do you see how that applies to this?

In that you say it applies when it doesn't, yes I can see that.

 

[Darken12]

What constitutes an ignorant straight person?

The ignorant straight person is a straight person who says ignorant things. I've provided abbreviated examples in the post you quoted, but basically you can take a look at most of what the "critics" (and I use that term loosely) of this con have been saying. The ignorant straight person is someone who hasn't made an effort to sympathise or understand what the LGBT community has gone through or continues to go through, and who thoughtlessly spews half-baked and ill-conceived criticisms of something that doesn't affect them, not even bothering to stop and listen to the people who are better informed than them on the matter in question. The ignorant straight person believes that they have a right for their opinion to be heard and considered, without even bothering to tone down the arrogance in their posts.

In your opinion, can a straight person support you and your beliefs on the issue, even if they can't have had first hand knowledge on the exact same situation you have?

Yes, straight allies do exist and I value them greatly, but the straight ally makes a point to be respectful. They don't barge into a discussion spouting their disapproval and aggressively criticising the LGBT community. The straight ally understands that when it comes to LGBT issues, they're guests at another person's house, so to speak, and they should behave with respect and deference, precisely because they do not belong in the conversation.

It's fine to say that you disagree with the ideas behind the con or that you're worried about the impact it may have on equality, but straight allies should approach the conversation with delicacy and respect. It's seriously not that hard. I'm a feminist ally, and I take the utmost care in my talks with feminists to make sure my demeanour comes off as respectful and grateful for their attention, because they have no obligation to indulge me or pay me any sort of attention. They do it out of politeness and the goodness of their hearts, so I consider it an honour I greatly appreciate.

I'd like to think of myself as a non-ignorant straight person, just from simply not being terribly ignorant as a human being. The only reason I'm posting in this thread is because it relates to me through gaming and homosexuality, given that some of my best friends are gay or lesbian. I understand how they've struggled to become the people they are now, and what it means for them. It depresses me to see how they needed to act to 'fit in', when they really shouldn't need to. It also makes me extremely happy to see them in healthy relationships and comfortable with themselves finally, despite me not being able to achieve that in my own life yet.
Regardless, I've been able to see people who've previously been outcast reintegrate completely and find comfort in what they enjoy about themselves and what they enjoy in life. The relation to gaming is relatively similar in that people are happy to tolerate, but not integrate, not fully accept, and not cater towards.

Why not let 'we' be more than just a group of people from the same sexuality? Why not have it simply be a group of like-minded people?

In short? Dilution. Let me put it this way: every nation is a group of people that's more than just those of the same sexuality. In the US, what do we have to show for it? Gay rights are nowhere near acceptable. Why? Because we play nice and we do things the proper way and we take the high road. We don't beat up homophobes, we don't throw molotov cocktails to the houses of intolerant religious or right wing people, we try to get our laws passed in lawful, acceptable ways. We swallow all the rage, the injustice, the humiliation we endure, everything. When things get too rough, what's the worst thing we do? We kill ourselves.

And what do we have to show for it? Slow, gruelling progress, where we have to fight for every damn inch, accompanied by the increase of hate crimes.

So no, I'm sorry. Allies can support and help, but we need a safe place where we can get together and support each other, and where our voices can be heard instead of drowned by a cacophony of people who aren't part of our community, somewhere where our needs and wants matter, and aren't pushed away because we're a minority and nobody cares about us. The more straight people invade our safe spaces, the more alone and separated we are from each other, and the more drowned out we get. If straight people want to be our allies, they need to give us our space, and start acting like they are guests at our house, instead of stomping all over the place.

I hope that given this, I can find it possible to discuss things with you, be that in agreeance or otherwise, and have you not simply shut it down because I'm straight and disagreeing with you. If it was as simple as that, well then I wouldn't be posting.

I don't mind discussing things with you, because you approach the subject respectfully (for what I've seen). My problem isn't with all straight people, it's with those who can't be bothered to be respectful with their criticism and can't even accept that maybe the LGBT community knows more about what it's like to be LGBT than them.

 

[theultimateend]

Dear Mr Carter I would like it if you would NOT use such comments such as the following "steeped in that luxurious ignorance particular to white teenagers".
As I am a white teenager myself I feel offended that you would use a negative stereotype to insult us while then trying to breed understanding and tolerance as you are undermining your own message by doing so (insulting said people who ask said questions when you your self said it is simply because they are ignorant) also does not help your cause and simply anger people.
Your's truly the wonderful all knowing and kind leader of the human race known as knight steel ^_^

Seeing as nearly all my homophobic friends aren't white I agree on some level.

It's very easy to blame white people for being unambiguously hateful but it kinda ignores reality.

Edit: Literally just did a headcount and all my homophobic friends are Asian.

The only person in my life that is white and homophobic is my half brother.

Now everyone here knows more about my social circle than they cared to.

double edit: Might be unfair though since I grew up in Bremerton right next to Bangor. So a disproportionate amount of the people I have known in my life have been Asian. I'm sure if I was somewhere with a different demographic the majority in that region would be the one with homophobes.

Basically its just a small % of a population and if the population is big in an area they'll seem like the predominantly less open minded group.

 

[Seneschal]

I find it very odd that none of these points about "gaming being more important" came up when we discussed GameChurch [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/9091-The-GameChurch].

Yeah, it's weird. There wasn't anyone accusing them of "trying to segregate Christgamers from Atheistgamers." Maybe a few people found it weird, but there weren't several opposing comments on the first page alone.

Perhaps it was their delivery - all goofy and playful... It assured (or fooled) those that "didn't see the need for a Gamechurch" that they were just fooling around, that it would be all about the games and the beer, bro, and that Jesus was just a mascot. Or people simply weren't weirded out by Christian gamers wanting to gather and discuss issues that pertain to both faith and games.

I don't get why Gaymercon gets the opposite reaction. It's like, "What are you guys talking about there? Stop that! Gaming has nothing to do with LGBTQ issues. I don't care about your extensive list of panels, events and open forums; you come back to E3 immediately!"

Geez.

 

[Radley Duder]

Just thought I'd pop in and have my say. I read a few of the comments back there, but not all of them (you understand, right? We all have better things to do than to read this whole damn thing.) I'm not here to debate or argue here, never was any good at that. The reason I'm excited for GaymerX is because there's a place for me to act and interact with like-minded people. I recently came out as pansexual September last year. My group of friends were supportive and didn't really draw much attention to the whole thing ( other than the common question of "what's a pansexual?") but when we hung out later on, the way they'd react to things made me a bit uncomfortable, from calling things gay or faggy, to something as small as saying "ew" in reaction to the thought of a gay Shepard, to laughing when one of the characters in a show turns out to be gay (depending on the context, this last point is totally fine, but in this case, it wasn't). I don't really fault them for those latter reactions to things, but it makes me a tad uncomfortable. I'd like to go to a place where I can be comfortable with my sexuality, so I occasionally drop by an LGBT meetup in town. I'm also a gamer, so I head over to our video game themed bar, and go to conventions like pax and such. The idea of combining the two, especially with the video game industry which has some image issues concerning homophobia and all that, sounds like a ton of fun! Will I stop going to the other conventions? Of course not, PAX is awesome, but the idea of going to a convention that celebrates a hobby that has become a part of my life, and doesn't alienate in small ways the way some marketing and a portion of the general gaming demographic does, sounds like a blast.

 

[Darken12]

I'll start off by saying that it's well written. I don't really agree with you, but your point comes across nicely.

In these situations though, it's often that some people fight a little *too* hard for their rights and come off as self pitying or crusaders.

Thanks. The thing is, at the end of the day, we're in it together and I still got your back even if I rabidly disagree with you.

I'll quote the con's webpage:

"Educating and informing the gaming community of the presence and importance of sexuality and gender diversity in our digital lives and promoting acceptance and social change through bettering the gaming experience."

Before that it states:

"Gaymer X is open to all, whether you?re bisexual, transgender, gay, asexual or an ally and we hope to make an experience that will be meaningful as well as educational and fascinating."

Open to all. Except, y'know, the people who need to be informed about the situation.
Excluding the target audience is not educational or tolerance promotional; it's borderline stupid.

You cannot educate people who don't want to be educated. Educating someone against their will, even with good intentions, is called brainwashing. We cannot force unreceptive straight people to listen to us.

Non-related people are well within their rights to ask questions about this con. They should be respectful, of course, but there's no reason to show any special curtesy or treat us like victims. If we want to have a sober debate, we need to show that we're able to behave maturely, that we're PEOPLE like everyone else.

Whenever someone has asked an honest question and not a rhetorical one meant to express disapproval or reproach at the idea, I've answered it to the best of my abilities. Nobody said anything about being treated like victims. You don't treat the owners of the house like a victim simply because you're expected to observe proper decorum while you're under someone else's roof, do you?

Here in DK our LGBT organization doesn't self promote as weak or act as if we can't take care of ourselves in any way. They've just started to organize workshops for LGBTs in Tanzania where people get lifetime imprisonment for homosexuality. They promote tolerance and rights where there are NONE.
Now, I'm not saying the US is a safe zone and completely tolerant or that growing up in a relatively peaceful society as an LGBT is always easy, but to say that you have slow grueling progress is not true mate. Several states in your country allowed same-sex marriage before ours did and your country is quickly progressing, teaching kids about equality and tolerance, now more than ever.

In the last fifty years we've seen more progress than we have in several hundreds. That might be slow and grueling to you, but in the big picture we're doing pretty well.

It's relative. Sure, we're better than we've been in the past, but we're still far from this utopia of equality some straight people seem to be convinced we live in.

As for ignorant straight people... I think you're being too sensitive. I would rather take an ally that questions my actions and decisions bluntly, than have them walk on eggshells and be ultra sensitive to my "situation".

And I would rather have an ally that lets me make my own decisions and doesn't demand that his opinion be heard on every little thing my friends and I want to do, and who doesn't try to educate me on what furthers or hinders equality. But I guess it's a matter of personal taste.

Maybe we should coin the phrase "ignorant LGBT". People who think no one else has a hard time and that they can't relate to intolerance unless they're in a minority.
A crass point, but I hope you take my jab as it's meant.

Cute. Adorable, even. Especially when I've posted about the kyriarchy on this thread over and over, repeatedly acknowledging that most of us are oppressed one way or another, and that most of us know what it means to be discriminated against. Plus I've said it a few times by know, privilege doesn't mean that your life is automatically good. However, the cold hard facts are that the LGBT community is the expert when it comes to knowing what being LGBT is. And that's something straight people aren't. Now I don't know about you, but when I;m having a discussion with my college professors, I make sure I keep in mind that they probably know a great deal more than I do on the subject, and that they deserve respect.

 

[Guestyman]

Can I just say that this is entirely too ridiculous that the thread has gone on for as long as it has?

This entire discussion can boil down to the following:

Gay gamers want their own little sandbox, so they made one. With their own money. Who on Earth are you to say they can't have it?

When you boil it down like that it seems rather simple, doesn't it? If you don't like the idea of Gaymercon then don't go. But just because there exists a place on earth where you are not the target audience does not give you any rights over it. And if the outcomes of the discussion don't effect you, then you have NO PLACE in the discussion.

End of story.

Seriously this is getting ridiculous. This thread has over 460 replies and you wonder why we feel like we're sick of being controversial and want to be the normal ones for a change?

Let me make an analogy.

It's like if you have some siblings and between you and your siblings you own a toy. I'm your best friend from school and we often play with your toy, but sometimes your big brother is a massive jerk to me, and sometimes I just like to play with my brother instead so I buy myself a toy that's similar to your toy, but mine is a different colour that me and my little brother like more but you don't.

I don't stop coming 'round to play with you, I just play with my little brother as well. Then you come 'round to my house and start getting offended by me owning my own toy. "I always let you play with mine! What's wrong with my toy?" you ask. And the answer is nothing. Nothing is wrong with your toy. The fact that you always let me borrow/play with your toy doesn't mean I can't have my own. And if I buy my own, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with yours. I might like the colour of mine better, or not want to play with your jerk of a brother. You're still my best friend, and we'll still hang out. Me having other friends and other toys doesn't mean I'm going to stop being your best friend, and I find it stupid that you think we're going to segregate myself in my room just because I spend some time there.

This is a ridiculous argument to be having.

Just let me have my toy.