On Gaymers and Cons

[The Material Sheep]

But you're not worth it. And I mean that in the literal sense of the word "worth", or "value" or perhaps "profit".

The best you can hope for is to establish yourselves as a niche market to be exploited. Gaming is an industry that produces art. The fact is it will not be profitable for a many companies to attempt the risky, untried venture of homosexual... focused (?) games given the size of the potential demographic.

That's exactly the misconception we want to eradicate. Regardless of its debatable benefits on a sociocultural level, the con is immensely beneficial on an economical level. We are a financially tempting demographic, and it's time we show the gaming industry that.

I would like to see a homosexual protagonist (as in a 100% homosexual, not an optional like Shepard or Hawke, though good on Bioware for really making grounds in AAA titles by including openly homosexual characters who are people are not just their sexuality), I just don't know if any company is willing to risk the launch of such a title.

I guess the convention will prove that an indie developer could start up homosexual focused games or games with homosexual protagonists and there's a market ripe, demanding and willing to be exploited.

It has already happened [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obscurasoft/coming-out-on-top-a-gay-dating-sim-video-game]. The artist taught herself to code and it's a very simplistic dating sim/visual novel (it's got even less gameplay than The Walking Dead), but she has made about 28,000 dollars (thus far, she still has 12 more days to go). This is how big of a market there are for LGBT-centric games.

I want to stress that she's an artist, not a game developer, and her game is being sold despite its gameplay simplicity. If an actual, proper game were to be made, it would rake in a lot more. This woman, with minimal advertising, got almost 6 times the funding she needed to make a game on her own.

The LGBT demographic is commercially viable, but people are never going to realise that without tangible proof.

We honestly aren't THAT big a demographic... relatively speaking. 28,000 for a dating sim isn't exactly a breath taking AAA title and is also probably receiving money just because its the only one filling a current void. Point being there are a lot of reasons for this aside from the market being large, which is demonstrably not true. We are roughly... 5% of the general population... give or take... probably more because you have to account for those who are out vs in the closet, and on top of that not all of us are gamers so you have to reduce the population even more there.

All and all that just isn't a large market and you can't expect someone to specialize their content so drastically for very little gain.

Does that mean there wont ever be a gay protagonist? Of course not, because that's something that can be enjoyed by everyone, just like I can enjoy every straight protagonist that I've played as. However it does mean gay focused games are never going to be all that commercially viable.

 

[Abomination]

That's exactly the misconception we want to eradicate. Regardless of its debatable benefits on a sociocultural level, the con is immensely beneficial on an economical level. We are a financially tempting demographic, and it's time we showed the gaming industry that.

It isn't a misconception. It is simple economics. Your niche market is a fraction of the size of the more dominant. It isn't "immensely" beneficial. Also, homosexuals aren't some type of hive-mind constructs that all like something or will buy something just because it has a homosexual focus.

To a producer your market is niche with the added benefit of progressive social brownie points to be won. That's the cold hard truth.

I would like to see a homosexual protagonist (as in a 100% homosexual, not an optional like Shepard or Hawke, though good on Bioware for really making grounds in AAA titles by including openly homosexual characters who are people are not just their sexuality), I just don't know if any company is willing to risk the launch of such a title.

I guess the convention will prove that an indie developer could start up homosexual focused games or games with homosexual protagonists and there's a market ripe, demanding and willing to be exploited.

It has already happened [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obscurasoft/coming-out-on-top-a-gay-dating-sim-video-game]. The artist taught herself to code and it's a very simplistic dating sim/visual novel (it's got even less gameplay than The Walking Dead), but she has made about 28,000 dollars (thus far, she still has 12 more days to go). This is how big of a market there are for LGBT-centric games.

I want to stress that she's an artist, not a game developer, and her game is being sold despite its gameplay simplicity. If an actual, proper game were to be made, it would rake in a lot more. This woman, with minimal advertising, got almost 6 times the funding she needed to make a game on her own.

The LGBT demographic is commercially viable, but people are never going to realise that without tangible proof.

A homosexual dating sim, while a start and far more successful than planned, is still the babiest of baby steps. I do look forward to what the next developer will attempt. Here's hoping it's an actual game.

 

[Darken12]

We honestly aren't THAT big a demographic... relatively speaking. 28,000 for a dating sim isn't exactly a breath taking AAA title and is also probably receiving money just because its the only one filling a current void. Point being there are a lot of reasons for this aside from the market being large, which is demonstrably not true. We are roughly... 5% of the general population... give or take... probably more because you have to account for those who are out vs in the closet, and on top of that not all of us are gamers so you have to reduce the population even more there.

All and all that just isn't a large market and you can't expect someone to specialize their content so drastically for very little gain.

Does that mean there wont ever be a gay protagonist? Of course not, because that's something that can be enjoyed by everyone, just like I can enjoy every straight protagonist that I've played as. However it does mean gay focused games are never going to be all that commercially viable.

We're definitely upwards of 10% of the population, counting bisexuals and other non-straight orientations. Like you said, there is a significant amount of people who aren't out. In addition, there's also a significant number who don't consider themselves fully gay.

As for the rest, I will have to respectfully disagree. I respect your point of view and I understand what you're trying to say, but I would rather let tangible results decide who ended up being right.

After all, there have been plenty of times where markets have developed and become self-sustainable despite receiving the exact same warnings/unfavourable projections you're talking about. I would rather let time be the judge.

It isn't a misconception. It is simple economics. Your niche market is a fraction of the size of the more dominant. It isn't "immensely" beneficial. Also, homosexuals aren't some type of hive-mind constructs that all like something or will buy something just because it has a homosexual focus.

To a producer your market is niche with the added benefit of progressive social brownie points to be won. That's the cold hard truth.

Culture, demographics, economics and finance aren't static. They change and evolve over time. Those conceptions might have held validity at some point, but things change, and people aren't going to update their business practices if they're not shown how things have changed. Now granted, a recession is probably a hard time for people who want to take risks, but economy isn't static. We will overcome this recession and risks will become viable again. Between a better economic climate and tangible proof that those risks will pay off, those conceptions will change.

A homosexual dating sim, while a start and far more successful than planned, is still the babiest of baby steps. I do look forward to what the next developer will attempt. Here's hoping it's an actual game.

I completely agree, but it's the beginning of tendency. Things will change. I say this with the inevitability of the only cold hard truth in the universe. Everything changes.

 

[Spearmaster]

On Gaymers and Cons

Don't be that guy.

Read Full Article

Don't take this the wrong way but to me this does come off as flame-baiting, not something I would expect from featured content on the Escapist, I hoped this was a classier place than that.

Seems like a standard post would have been more appropriate. Then again positive discussion did not seem to be the creators intent. I may be wrong but that's how I see it.

 

[Abomination]

It isn't a misconception. It is simple economics. Your niche market is a fraction of the size of the more dominant. It isn't "immensely" beneficial. Also, homosexuals aren't some type of hive-mind constructs that all like something or will buy something just because it has a homosexual focus.

To a producer your market is niche with the added benefit of progressive social brownie points to be won. That's the cold hard truth.

Culture, demographics, economics and finance aren't static. They change and evolve over time. Those conceptions might have held validity at some point, but things change, and people aren't going to update their business practices if they're not shown how things have changed. Now granted, a recession is probably a hard time for people who want to take risks, but economy isn't static. We will overcome this recession and risks will become viable again. Between a better economic climate and tangible proof that those risks will pay off, those conceptions will change.[/quote]No, it will not. Period. The homosexual market will NEVER be as large or as profitable as the mainstream. It would only have a chance of LGBT made up 50% of the earth's population, which I can't see happening any time... ever.

Remember, you said you wanted it to be worth THE SAME as the other market. Certainly the LGBT market has significant potential for expodential growth comparitively, but that's because it's essentially sitting at... $28,000. Compare that to other kickstarters. It's very easy to grow by a factor of 10 when you're not even in the hundred thousand mark.

 

[Darken12]

No, it will not. Period. The homosexual market will NEVER be as large or as profitable as the mainstream. It would only have a chance of LGBT made up 50% of the earth's population, which I can't see happening any time... ever.

Remember, you said you wanted it to be worth THE SAME as the other market. Certainly the LGBT market has significant potential for expodential growth comparitively, but that's because it's essentially sitting at... $28,000. Compare that to other kickstarters. It's very easy to grow by a factor of 10 when you're not even in the hundred thousand mark.

Then why would any company make horror games? Why is Telltale Games still in business? Why do they make games rated M at all? Why are there sports games still being made? Drivers, fighting games, adventure games, so on and so forth. Hell, why RPGs still get made when they are still not in the same league as CoD shooters?

Under your assumptions, no company would make anything other than CoD clones, because any other option is certainly never going to overtake or equal the mainstream. If catering to the lowest common denominator is so important, no company would ever greenlight anything that wasn't a spunkgargleweewee. And yet, we have The Walking Dead, Spec Ops: The Line (which actively condemns spunkgargleweewees, an act of self-sabotage under your logic!), Amnesia: The Dark Descent (and its sequel!), Limbo, Lone Survivor, the burgeoning indie market (that Valve, through Steam, is investing money on) and so on and so forth.

Everyone thought the point and click adventure genre was dead. Everyone thought the horror genre was dead. Everyone thought the indie market would never amount to anything of notice. Everyone thought spunkgargleweewees were untouchable sacred cows and no AAA company would make a game that spouses criticism against them.

Things. Change.

 

[The Material Sheep]

On Gaymers and Cons

Don't be that guy.

Read Full Article

Don't take this the wrong way but to me this does come off as flame-baiting, not something I would expect from featured content on the Escapist, I hoped this was a classier place than that.

Seems like a standard post would have been more appropriate. Then again positive discussion did not seem to be the creators intent. I may be wrong but that's how I see it.

I agree. He strawmanned a position he didn't agree with in a place he wouldn't see much criticism and then baited them with a comment afterwards.

It's just not a very classy approach to the subject. I understand he's a comic of sorts but the joke... Oh well it is what it is.

 

[tyriless]

I am very pleased to see a whole lot of folks that are standing up to the biggotry and the ignorance that are coming onto these forums. Thanks for bringing the light, fighitng the good fight. Those who refuse to listen will eventually leave to troll the much darker places of the internet.

 

[Darken12]

I'm sorry you do not get to start out by calling people you disagree with "faux-puzzled, disingenuous dick lizards" and then demand calm constructive criticism. Not unless you retract those statements.

They aren't insulting the people they disagree with. They are insulting the people who act like smug, self-righteous douchebags and ask rhetorical, disingenuous questions in a thinly veiled melange of mockery and insult, instead of discussing the issue calmly. If you aren't a smug asshole who does that, the comic wasn't aimed at you, therefore did not insult you, therefore calm constructive criticism is expected.

If you were the comic creator I'd accuse you of backpedaling.

Here's what they said

" being able to "fit in" (hoho) pretty much anywhere is one of the numerous luxuries that come with being straight."

And that's bullshit. It's contradicted by the thousands of people who are straight and do have trouble fitting in.

Yes, that is incredibly obvious and self-evident. So much so, that it strikes me as ridiculous that someone who is intelligent enough to understand what privilege means was simultaneously so unintelligent as to assume all straight people always fit in. When I read that, I assumed they meant that their sexuality is not an impediment when it comes to fitting in (that is, if you take two perfectly average gamers, the straight one is going to fit in automatically while the LGBT one might not). If they had used the word "male", "white" or "able-bodied" instead of "straight", I would have assumed the exact same thing.

 

[rbstewart7263]

*snip*

Listen. This has been covered before. They weren't comparing specific instances, they were comparing attitudes, that's why you see the same guy with the same smug face on all panels. Could it have been done better? I have no idea, I'm not a webcomic expert or connoisseur. But if you have an issue with the way they chose to portray their message, you could elaborate a calm constructive criticism instead of flipping.

I'm sorry you do not get to start out by calling people you disagree with "faux-puzzled, disingenuous dick lizards" and then demand calm constructive criticism. Not unless you retract those statements.

As for the bit about how "straight people feel bad too", let me repeat myself as I have done over and over in the thread:

It's a gross generalization to just assume someone else has had it easy for those reasons.

Privilege has nothing to do with the overall outcome of your life. Privilege means that society has given you an invisible bag of tools, keys and maps for your journey through life. The more instances of privilege you have, the bigger your bag is (with the biggest bag going to the physically attractive, intelligent, college-educated, rich straight cis white male born into a respected family). Just because your life ended up being crappy doesn't mean you don't have these extra advantages that other people don't have. It's entirely possible that a transgendered lesbian of colour may have had a better life than you, but it's undeniable that you had far more invisible tools at your disposal than her along the way.

Nobody is saying that straight people live in magical paradises of awesomeness and happiness.

If you were the comic creator I'd accuse you of backpedaling.

Here's what they said

" being able to "fit in" (hoho) pretty much anywhere is one of the numerous luxuries that come with being straight."

And that's bullshit. It's contradicted by the thousands of people who are straight and do have trouble fitting in.

While I do agree as to some of the purposes of this con almost completely.as an aside I do feel that this fantasy being peddled out by so called rights groups does need to be dismantled.

Ill try to stick to times where it was base culture and not sub culture.(cultures of what you are instead of what you like.Ie: black culture vs metal culture)


As a white person myself if I had to name one place ive had trouble fitting in in the past it was in "black" places. I was poked fun at for typically white things in general. I was looked at odd by every black person there and when I commented on the beauty of one lady the cashier said "You cant handle all that".I cant prove it but he was essentially implying that a white boy doesnt know how to satisfy a black woman with an ass as big as hers.Given there are other possible reasons I suppose.Im rather softspoken, i dress like a biker and I have a shaved head and blue eyes. believe it or not those last two dont get noticed a whole lot.

But you think all those underprivileged groups dont have barriers of entry? You dont think they can be assholes when an "outsider comes around" Ill give another example.

A lady friend of mine who at the time was prominent in the dance scene was showing interest in her lesbian aquaintances. only one or two gave her a chance. The rest figured she wasnt serious lezzy material and wrote her off.

So yes we come into alot of hate because of this idea that we have it so great. I cant get jobs in a few black run hotels in town because theyd rather support there own. I dont allow it to make me racist but I have alot less white guilt than I used to now. ive seen both sides of the track and that both sides have bigots and such. Which is why I appreciate the white friends have that dont use shitty black people as an excuse for racism. I appreciate my lady friends that dont use a few shitty examples of men to justify man hating and damnit I rather like my gay friends before they drifted off.alas

 

[Darken12]

*snip*

You know that thing you see in movies or TV where a guy gets burnt so many times he becomes a jaded, bitter, overly defensive asshole? It's usually done with romance, but it can also be done with a career, artistic dream or family. A lot of oppressed people end up like that. I am one of them, even. I am not going to deny it: it's not right. We shouldn't do that. But life broke us. Sometimes it takes one hate crime, sometimes it takes years of little things. We have anger, and hatred, and no way of letting it out (because, as mentioned before in this thread, we always have to take the high road. A woman beats the shit of a man who groped her, and then it's all "See? All women are bitches!" from everyone else. A black man punches the white dude who has been throwing racial slurs at him all day, and he's confirming all the stereotypes white people have of him. LGBT people firebomb the Westboro Baptist Church and we prove them right. And when we take the high road and do things the right way, everyone bitches and moans about how PC has gone mad and we're all overreacting, or we want attention, or the 'gay agenda', or we need to grow thicker skins, or we are being exclusionary hypocrites, or bemoan the fact that nobody cares about straight white men).

I don't know, maybe we should get therapy. Maybe we should all be on benzodiazepines 24/7 so that we can look at you, smile placidly and not give a fuck.

I know it's not much of a consolation, but when you don't get a job in a place run by people of colour, you can turn around and find ten or twenty places where they would rather have you (biker look notwithstanding) instead of a person of colour. And if they hire you, you don't have to worry about being paid less for doing the same job, or having to work twice as hard to earn your coworkers' respect (as it happens with women), or fearing violence if you're in an intolerant area (as it happens with LGBT people).

Some us are bigoted, yes, because we are consumed by hatred, just like the people we criticise. And it's not right. But we have no power. How many jobs are we denying you? A handful, at best? How many hate crimes have we inflicted on you? None. Hate speech? You can't compare the weight of something like 'white trash' or 'cracker' to the n-word, the c-word or ******. Are we in the government, preventing you from marrying the person you love or adopting children? No. Are you seriously afraid of physical violence or rape if you're alone in a room full of strange women? No. We are toothless. Our hatred and bigotry is declawed and defanged. It hurts, sure, but at the end of the day, we can't affect your life in any meaningful way, and we know it. So some of us make sure that that hurt counts.

Like I said, it ain't right, but maybe this will help you take some of the sting away.

 

[rbstewart7263]

*snip*

You know that thing you see in movies or TV where a guy gets burnt so many times he becomes a jaded, bitter, overly defensive asshole? It's usually done with romance, but it can also be done with a career, artistic dream or family. A lot of oppressed people end up like that. I am one of them, even. I am not going to deny it: it's not right. We shouldn't do that. But life broke us. Sometimes it takes one hate crime, sometimes it takes years of little things. We have anger, and hatred, and no way of letting it out (because, as mentioned before in this thread, we always have to take the high road. A woman beats the shit of a man who groped her, and then it's all "See? All women are bitches!" from everyone else. A black man punches the white dude who has been throwing racial slurs at him all day, and he's confirming all the stereotypes white people have of him. LGBT people firebomb the Westboro Baptist Church and we prove them right. And when we take the high road and do things the right way, everyone bitches and moans about how PC has gone mad and we're all overreacting, or we want attention, or the 'gay agenda', or we need to grow thicker skins, or we are being exclusionary hypocrites, or bemoan the fact that nobody cares about straight white men).

I don't know, maybe we should get therapy. Maybe we should all be on benzodiazepines 24/7 so that we can look at you, smile placidly and not give a fuck.

I know it's not much of a consolation, but when you don't get a job in a place run by people of colour, you can turn around and find ten or twenty places where they would rather have you (biker look notwithstanding) instead of a person of colour. And if they hire you, you don't have to worry about being paid less for doing the same job, or having to work twice as hard to earn your coworkers' respect (as it happens with women), or fearing violence if you're in an intolerant area (as it happens with LGBT people).

Some us are bigoted, yes, because we are consumed by hatred, just like the people we criticise. And it's not right. But we have no power. How many jobs are we denying you? A handful, at best? How many hate crimes have we inflicted on you? None. Hate speech? You can't compare the weight of something like 'white trash' or 'cracker' to the n-word, the c-word or ******. Are we in the government, preventing you from marrying the person you love or adopting children? No. Are you seriously afraid of physical violence or rape if you're alone in a room full of strange women? No. We are toothless. Our hatred and bigotry is declawed and defanged. It hurts, sure, but at the end of the day, we can't affect your life in any meaningful way, and we know it. So some of us make sure that that hurt counts.

Like I said, it ain't right, but maybe this will help you take some of the sting away.

Ah hell its cool dude I aint worried about it. I keep in mind those select few who dont do that to keep from being too jaded about the many that do.

It gets tiresome hearing. white male this straight white male that but as I get older I just brush it off. People will see it all right in the future I hope and can forgive and all that good stuff and be like I love people in general. instead of I love gays I hate blacks or any of those that separate.

So yeah but I appreciate the words and its cool knowing that Im not the only one who self evalutates his own self from time to time. "tips hat"

captcha: love is blind.

truly it is.

oh and for jobs I dont dress that way.lol

 

[The Material Sheep]

*snip*

You know that thing you see in movies or TV where a guy gets burnt so many times he becomes a jaded, bitter, overly defensive asshole? It's usually done with romance, but it can also be done with a career, artistic dream or family. A lot of oppressed people end up like that. I am one of them, even. I am not going to deny it: it's not right. We shouldn't do that. But life broke us. Sometimes it takes one hate crime, sometimes it takes years of little things. We have anger, and hatred, and no way of letting it out (because, as mentioned before in this thread, we always have to take the high road. A woman beats the shit of a man who groped her, and then it's all "See? All women are bitches!" from everyone else. A black man punches the white dude who has been throwing racial slurs at him all day, and he's confirming all the stereotypes white people have of him. LGBT people firebomb the Westboro Baptist Church and we prove them right. And when we take the high road and do things the right way, everyone bitches and moans about how PC has gone mad and we're all overreacting, or we want attention, or the 'gay agenda', or we need to grow thicker skins, or we are being exclusionary hypocrites, or bemoan the fact that nobody cares about straight white men).

I don't know, maybe we should get therapy. Maybe we should all be on benzodiazepines 24/7 so that we can look at you, smile placidly and not give a fuck.

I know it's not much of a consolation, but when you don't get a job in a place run by people of colour, you can turn around and find ten or twenty places where they would rather have you (biker look notwithstanding) instead of a person of colour. And if they hire you, you don't have to worry about being paid less for doing the same job, or having to work twice as hard to earn your coworkers' respect (as it happens with women), or fearing violence if you're in an intolerant area (as it happens with LGBT people).

Some us are bigoted, yes, because we are consumed by hatred, just like the people we criticise. And it's not right. But we have no power. How many jobs are we denying you? A handful, at best? How many hate crimes have we inflicted on you? None. Hate speech? You can't compare the weight of something like 'white trash' or 'cracker' to the n-word, the c-word or ******. Are we in the government, preventing you from marrying the person you love or adopting children? No. Are you seriously afraid of physical violence or rape if you're alone in a room full of strange women? No. We are toothless. Our hatred and bigotry is declawed and defanged. It hurts, sure, but at the end of the day, we can't affect your life in any meaningful way, and we know it. So some of us make sure that that hurt counts.

Like I said, it ain't right, but maybe this will help you take some of the sting away.

Ehhh... the racism without power stuff always made me tip my head to the side. Between affirmative action, acceptable tribalism among minority groups and just general belief in "white male" privilege, you'd be surprised how untrue the idea of unequal job opportunity is in the professional/collegiate field. Perhaps your correct on the lower end of the pay scale, but in general those jobs are far more numerous to begin with.

I remember hearing a year ago or so how my cousin was consistently passed up for a job despite above average credentials do to being not a minority. Not specifically stated, but the evidence in both situations was more then ample towards that conclusion. Racism, bigotry and anything like that is wrong regardless of who does, and despite the notion of power. Any and all bigotry should be shunned equally because all it does is foster hatred between groups as those who never propagated bigotry are being punished with the consequences. So saying one side is okay or not as bad because it's "toothless" is just absurd. It's a notion we have to get over before any of these problems are really solved.

 

[Zydrate]

On Gaymers and Cons

Don't be that guy.

Read Full Article

Don't take this the wrong way but to me this does come off as flame-baiting, not something I would expect from featured content on the Escapist, I hoped this was a classier place than that.

You should visit some of MovieBob's threads sometimes. Hoooo boy.

 

[lord.jeff]

Did you get jumped and beaten down by a group of homosexuals?

Immaterial to this conversation. There is a difference between an actual victim & self imposed victimhood of an American.

you want to know what being a victim is here [link]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States[/link]

I'll admit that argument is playing on emotions but there are real gay victims and you shouldn't ignore them just because it doesn't help prove your case. Discrimination is still strong in America, maybe not as strong as a lot would like you to believe but it's still there in stronger force then it should be nor should you ignore ligament claims of discrimination. These people just want a weekend to get away from that while doing something they love, games/con going and nothing is wrong with that.

I'm sorry, when did any of these violent acts upon members of the LGBT community occur at a gaming convention?

It was in response to Matthew's punched in the face comment, somewhat jokingly pointing out gays that really did get punched in the face and apparent belief that gays are just playing it up so they can have the victim card, it was a sloppy arguement but I can't provide any proof of discrimination at a con specifically outside of personally witnessing them and he doesn't seem to believe those as anything but exaggeration.

 

[Vault101]

A lady friend of mine who at the time was prominent in the dance scene was showing interest in her lesbian aquaintances. only one or two gave her a chance. The rest figured she wasnt serious lezzy material and wrote her off.

I don't get it....they thourght she wasnt gay enough?

 

[Darken12]

Ah hell its cool dude I aint worried about it. I keep in mind those select few who dont do that to keep from being too jaded about the many that do.

It gets tiresome hearing. white male this straight white male that but as I get older I just brush it off. People will see it all right in the future I hope and can forgive and all that good stuff and be like I love people in general. instead of I love gays I hate blacks or any of those that separate.

So yeah but I appreciate the words and its cool knowing that Im not the only one who self evalutates his own self from time to time. "tips hat"

captcha: love is blind.

truly it is.

oh and for jobs I dont dress that way.lol

No problem. Glad we got rid of some of the anger and bad blood this thread gathered over the weekend. Self-evaluation and introspection are important.

Ehhh... the racism without power stuff always made me tip my head to the side. Between affirmative action, acceptable tribalism among minority groups and just general belief in "white male" privilege, you'd be surprised how untrue the idea of unequal job opportunity is in the professional/collegiate field. Perhaps your correct on the lower end of the pay scale, but in general those jobs are far more numerous to begin with.

I remember hearing a year ago or so how my cousin was consistently passed up for a job despite above average credentials do to being not a minority. Not specifically stated, but the evidence in both situations was more then ample towards that conclusion. Racism, bigotry and anything like that is wrong regardless of who does, and despite the notion of power. Any and all bigotry should be shunned equally because all it does is foster hatred between groups as those who never propagated bigotry are being punished with the consequences. So saying one side is okay or not as bad because it's "toothless" is just absurd. It's a notion we have to get over before any of these problems are really solved.

With all due respect, I'm just going to have to disagree. I can't think of a non-asshole way to put it, so I'm just gonna say it: our bigotry is reactive. No LGBT person believes that being straight is a sin, abnormal, a disease, an insult to virility/femininity, a synonym of weakness, or unnatural. Our bigotry is reactive. We didn't start it, and I am frankly tired of being told to be the better person, and take the high road, and find reserves of benevolence and forgiveness that I just don't have while there are assholes out there that do far worse than I do and straight people prefer to turn a blind eye on.

So no, I'm sorry, I don't think it's at all reasonable to ask the minorities and the oppressed to stop being hateful and bigoted when there is far worse out there that nobody gives a shit about. When the playing field is actually level and both sides are bigoted in similar ways, that is, when there are no more hate crimes, violence against women, and we have universal gay rights across the globe, no more gender/racial disparities and so on, when all we have against each other are hurtful words, then we'll talk.

 

[rbstewart7263]

A lady friend of mine who at the time was prominent in the dance scene was showing interest in her lesbian aquaintances. only one or two gave her a chance. The rest figured she wasnt serious lezzy material and wrote her off.

I don't get it....they thourght she wasnt gay enough?

lol Like they thought she was merely curious and thus below there attention. when in reality she was looking for something serious. The gay community where I live in ms is not huge so variety is a bit lacking i guess. Otherwise she could have just found better people.

 

[Abomination]

I'm sorry, when did any of these violent acts upon members of the LGBT community occur at a gaming convention?

It was in response to Matthew's punched in the face comment, somewhat jokingly pointing out gays that really did get punched in the face and apparent belief that gays are just playing it up so they can have the victim card, it was a sloppy arguement but I can't provide any proof of discrimination at a con specifically outside of personally witnessing them and he doesn't seem to believe those as anything but exaggeration.

Thing is, the debate is surrounding what happens at a gaming convention that would encourage LGBT to make their own version of it. Acts that occur outside of gaming conventions do not apply, despite how terrible they may be.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Ehhh... the racism without power stuff always made me tip my head to the side. Between affirmative action, acceptable tribalism among minority groups and just general belief in "white male" privilege, you'd be surprised how untrue the idea of unequal job opportunity is in the professional/collegiate field. Perhaps your correct on the lower end of the pay scale, but in general those jobs are far more numerous to begin with.

I remember hearing a year ago or so how my cousin was consistently passed up for a job despite above average credentials do to being not a minority. Not specifically stated, but the evidence in both situations was more then ample towards that conclusion. Racism, bigotry and anything like that is wrong regardless of who does, and despite the notion of power. Any and all bigotry should be shunned equally because all it does is foster hatred between groups as those who never propagated bigotry are being punished with the consequences. So saying one side is okay or not as bad because it's "toothless" is just absurd. It's a notion we have to get over before any of these problems are really solved.

With all due respect, I'm just going to have to disagree. I can't think of a non-asshole way to put it, so I'm just gonna say it: our bigotry is reactive. No LGBT person believes that being straight is a sin, abnormal, a disease, an insult to virility/femininity, a synonym of weakness, or unnatural. Our bigotry is reactive. We didn't start it, and I am frankly tired of being told to be the better person, and take the high road, and find reserves of benevolence and forgiveness that I just don't have while there are assholes out there that do far worse than I do and straight people prefer to turn a blind eye on.

So no, I'm sorry, I don't think it's at all reasonable to ask the minorities and the oppressed to stop being hateful and bigoted when there is far worse out there that nobody gives a shit about. When the playing field is actually level and both sides are bigoted in similar ways, that is, when there are no more hate crimes, violence against women, and we have universal gay rights across the globe, no more gender/racial disparities and so on, when all we have against each other are hurtful words, then we'll talk.

Okay fine. I agree with treating people badly who actually actively treat you badly. I'm asking you to not treat people badly who haven't done a damn thing to you, by lumping them in with everyone who has treated you badly. I'm not asking you to not be mad oppressors, I am asking you to stop blaming everyone of same group that the oppressors belong to merely because of their gender and skin color. Your bigotry is just as bad in that regard, and when innocent people are blamed for these things, and then they become bitter at you, then they can argue the same thing, that their hate is reactive and that they should be allowed to paint all minorities as angry and irrational for having treated them in such an unfair way.

It's a two way street. The reason racism/bigotry is bad is because people become automatically judged based on an irrelevant measure of their character, sexuality, gender, race, etc. It's perfectly reasonable to judge someone or not give service to someone who has committed genocide, but that's due to their actions not traits out of their control. However its not reasonable to assume certain factors about a person due to aforementioned irrelevant character traits that have no bearing on who or what the person is or capable of doing, or what they believe.

Blaming an innocent white male for the sins of his family, the sins of school, or the sins of community is completely unjust, and your hatred and bitterness will turn him against you, and hopefully just you. Hopefully it won't color his perception of the entire group because you or another angry person felt justified in their own bigotry.

Bigotry begets bigotry. Only when we sit back and stop painting with broad brushes will things start to cool off. Hating the individuals who oppressed you is okay. Hating an entire group for the actions of said individuals is not.