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The Rogue Wolf

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Why's "but they aren't creating value for shareholders" a good argument? Lotta people doing physically taxing, emotionally abusive, pointless busywork for shit wages

The jobs are apparently essential. They should be payed like it
But then I might have to pay a few more cents for my cheeseburger! Shouldn't they be content to starve to death in the streets instead?!
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Only commies believe in that shit.
You gonna defend the argument on its merits at some point or just shout "commie"?

If the job burns people out mentally and physically, won't even pay the rent let along medical bills or anything, and is generally shit on as the job for "kids and losers", why do it? Why try and force people into it?

Why are they "essential" but not worth paying somebody to live?
 

McElroy

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If the job burns people out mentally and physically, won't even pay the rent let along medical bills or anything, and is generally shit on as the job for "kids and losers", why do it? Why try and force people into it?

Why are they "essential" but not worth paying somebody to live?
I'm not for any of that. Flipping burgers is a job for under 25s. Get qualified and do something better. I replied to a comment (by a person from Ireland) that just kinda assumed people would be off to do "better" things if they had to do nothing for a living. I can't say too much about the US. It's a big country.
 

Seanchaidh

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Hell, give somebody a guaranteed income and no obligations and you will be shocked just how many of them start that business. How many of these billionaires running around got started by risking actual poverty? Approximately zero. They all had upper middle class families to fall back on, hundreds of thousands of dollars in infrastructure and seed money, and if it failed they got to go back to Not Poor.

Give a bunch of poor people a stack of cash and no risk of homelessness and see what happens. If giving wealth to already rich people motivates already rich people, why wouldn't it motivate poor people?
but without a desperate reserve army of the unemployed who would they hire to do the actual work? 😩
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I'm not for any of that. Flipping burgers is a job for under 25s. Get qualified and do something better.
If it's important enough to do, it's important enough to live on.

How do you "get qualified" when you are working a job that doesn't pay enough to live, let alone pay for training and education?
 

Baffle

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Get qualified and do something better.
Technology advances and market changes have meant plenty of people have 'got qualified' then their jobs have disappeared, whether by offshoring, reduced demand, or just being completely redundant. Just look at what happened with shipbuilding and mining in northeast England, or more recently, aviation following reduced flying during the pandemic. Huge numbers of redundancies, and in the former case there wasn't much to replace it with.
 
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Agema

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How do you "get qualified" when you are working a job that doesn't pay enough to live, let alone pay for training and education?
In my view, if the state wants a flexible workforce then it needs to consider helping to pay for retraining.

And indeed, the UK government (having shut down a lot of adult education support years ago) has recently realised that the population has a skills / education shortfall, and has reintroduced adult education programs backed by significant funding to assist.
 
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McElroy

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How do you "get qualified" when you are working a job that doesn't pay enough to live, let alone pay for training and education?
You take a loan and don't squander it on studies that don't pay. Things aren't that simple, all in all. There are more variables in life.

Of course you'd like a full time job to always pay enough to get by, but if at any point for any reason that doesn't come to pass, and your answer to that is socialism or an UBI worth the current median wage, you'll be facing political resistance.

Technology advances and market changes have meant plenty of people have 'got qualified' then their jobs have disappeared, whether by offshoring, reduced demand, or just being completely redundant. Just look at what happened with shipbuilding and mining in northeast England, or more recently, aviation following reduced flying during the pandemic. Huge numbers of redundancies, and in the former case there wasn't much to replace it with.
Yeah it can be bad sometimes with those mining or factory towns. In general you should be ready to work in a service industry too; our economies are far into post-industrialization. Finland is a privileged place in this regard, with our safety nets and """free""" education. I only have to look at my extended family to find people too stubborn or lazy to do anything, just stubborn enough to settle for very simple things, resourceful "everywhere" mindsets who don't frown on opportunities that require them to move, "trial and error" -types, and the laser-focused ones.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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You take a loan and don't squander it on studies that don't pay. Things aren't that simple, all in all. There are more variables in life.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Man, people getting loans to go to school for a "sure thing" only to graduate into a bursting bubble has happened, like, 5 times in my adult life alone. That's why there's $1.5 trillion+ dollars in student loan debt floating around.
Of course you'd like a full time job to always pay enough to get by, but if at any point for any reason that doesn't come to pass, and your answer to that is socialism or an UBI worth the current median wage, you'll be facing political resistance.
Mate, we face political resistance to anything more progressive than indentured servitude.
Yeah it can be bad sometimes with those mining or factory towns. In general you should be ready to work in a service industry too;
Why? Those are the jobs that don't pay enough to live
 

Satinavian

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But nobody should linger in entry level positions, and if you have been working for years and are still in an entry level position....then maybe it's because your attitude sucks and you treat your job like shit because you feel like you are too good for the position. If you are genuinely being denied promotions and raises, use your work experience to get higher paying jobs somewhere else.

Especially with a labor shortage right now, people are paying more than ever before just to get workers.

Health care reform, rent regulations, these other things I can get behind with you on absolutely. Not this though.
But unskilled jobs are not "entry level jobs".

The thing about untrained work is that everyone can do it. Which means that work experience in them is not marketable at all. And there is usually not a career attached because the higher level positions in the same organisation do completely different stuff an require specialized skills, which the unskilled workers never attain through work.

Generally "getting skilled" as unskilled worker does not mean working long and hard for years. Just the opposite, it means taking time off from work to get an education.
 

Agema

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You take a loan and don't squander it on studies that don't pay. Things aren't that simple, all in all. There are more variables in life.
You can't necessarily get loans though, if you are on low pay. And in many cases you are talking about people on low skill jobs for whom education is likely to be relatively basic and not going to get them good jobs, which means loans are even less favourable.

One of the aforementioned examples given was for instance the collapse of traditional manual and manufacturing industries. These workers were people poorly suited to the new service sector jobs. They did not need to retrain for better jobs (and in fact often the opposite was true), they needed to retrain for a different sort of basic job. It is reasonable under the circumstances to think that this is fair cost for society to bear rather than push it onto low pay workers.

From my perspective, I am hugely in favour of this sort of thing: states investing in the development of their own population.
 
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Trunkage

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So Idaho has declared a Crisis Standards of Care


You can now go to a hospital and may no longer receive resuscitation to keep to alive. Because Covid is going that badly. This is for all hospital visits, not just Covid. So, don't have an accident. Similar laws may need to be placed on Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, Arkansas and Texas. As a note, there is a bunch of particular hospitals say tweeting that they aren't overwhelmed yet so don't need to follow this declaration.

As another side note, my cousins mother in law, who has been sick in the UK since about Jan. She has been able to move her eyelids and moan and that's about it for months. The family has had to go to court to force the NHS to look after her for longer, but lost the case on Friday. So... I don't know what happens now, but probably nothing good
 

The Rogue Wolf

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As another side note, my cousins mother in law, who has been sick in the UK since about Jan. She has been able to move her eyelids and moan and that's about it for months. The family has had to go to court to force the NHS to look after her for longer, but lost the case on Friday. So... I don't know what happens now, but probably nothing good
I'm sure someone will be along to tell us how good it is that one of the "old sickies" is dying and making way for the new generation.
 

Mister Mumbler

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Honestly don't know which take is more hilariously ironic, either;
Terminator, i-robot, robocop. Do you want a robot uprising? Because this is how you get a robot uprising.
That we can't build robots to take over these terrible jobs because they'll rebel and kill us all or;
You take a loan and don't squander it on studies that don't pay. Things aren't that simple, all in all. There are more variables in life.
If you are to poor to get by, just take on even more debt.

Just really funny to me.