Over 1,800 Gaming Professionals Condemn Hate Speech in Open Letter

[R0guy]

I stopped reading at you're first sentence.

Yup, fanatic. That's ok buddy, stuff like Brad Wardell's 8 year old kid being threatened with rape after Kotaku falsely accused his dad of sexual harrassement, might challenge your confirmation bias too much for comfort!

This is the one thing I don't get in this whole debacle. Why are some people so invested in a point of view that is not even their own? Geez sometimes I feel like I'm trying to discuss religion with a fundie, the one thing I vowed to ever ever do in my life.

Beats the hell out of me man! Probably why we currently have 465 pages in the other thread.

Something something Plato's Cave.

(A Master of Rhetoric am I)

Hehehehehehehe

Well I'd certainly rather be a basement-dweller than a bottom-of-the-cave-dweller! )

 

[Dragonbums]

Escapist remains silent for a week and then joins the legions of assholes shitting on the people who make their living with not one but two pieces squarely aimed at the gaming community rather than standing with it? Way to take a stand Escapist, seeing as you are clearly under the impression you would do fine without the gaming community seems you dont need to be on a certain whitelist anymore.

You don't make their living. AAA publishers make their living. And so long as they can take in the money doing actual corruption ( that none of you guys cared about until Quinn) things will go as normal.

 

[AkaDad]

Why are people that don't harass, say sexist and racist things getting so defensive when they aren't the people we're talking about?

Because the rhetoric used gets them lumped in with the extremists, and they're rightfully miffed about that. As are reasonable people on the other side of the debate. In many digital, text-based debates on many subjects such behavior can be seen. It's really irritating.

That's what baffles me. I've never seen anyone say ALL gamers are dicks, yet some gamers are getting offended when clearly the discussion has been about dickish behavior, harassment, and abuse.

Why is it so hard to distinguish between the two? It's almost like it's intentional.

 

[Baresark]

I'm in complete agreement. This needs to work both ways. Harassing speech comes from both camps.

Why are people that don't harass, say sexist and racist things getting so defensive when they aren't the people we're talking about?

Because the rhetoric used gets them lumped in with the extremists, and they're rightfully miffed about that. As are reasonable people on the other side of the debate. In many digital, text-based debates on many subjects such behavior can be seen. It's really irritating.

That's what baffles me. I've never seen anyone say ALL gamers are dicks, yet some gamers are getting offended when clearly the discussion has been about dickish behavior, harassment, and abuse.

Why is it so hard to distinguish between the two? It's almost like it's intentional.

In all fairness, it's the language that people choose to use. They say "Gamers", which is very general. No one says "all Gamers", but they use language that doesn't distinguish one gamer from another. But if they would say something like "some gamers", which very clearly doesn't include everyone, it wouldn't be an issue. You saw it all the time with that hashtag thing a while about... #yesallwomen? I think that was it. The vast majority of people who commented in favor of the campaign used the term "men". Which once again denotes a general that all or most men are guilty of x,y, and z. I didn't pay it any attention because I don't do the things outlined in a lot of the comments. But they could have clearly said "some men", separating the offenders from the non-offenders, it would never have been as big of an issue.

Edit: I almost forgot. The fact that there is a 140 character limit on Twitter is part of why there was no distinguishing language.

 

[AkaDad]

I stopped reading at you're first sentence.

Yup, fanatic. That's ok buddy, stuff like Brad Wardell's 8 year old kid being threatened with rape after Kotaku falsely accused his dad of sexual harrassement, might challenge your confirmation bias too much for comfort!

How many times do I have to say that I don't approve of any type of harassment to satisfy you? Give me a number.

Now compare how many people who harassed that kid to how much harassment there's been toward gamers, feminists, and journalists. It's not comparable.

Why are people that don't harass, say sexist and racist things getting so defensive when they aren't the people we're talking about?

Dude. We get it. You think swearing at people over the internet is a horrible atrocity and all these adults who are paid to deal with this shit have the self-assurance and emotional resilience of fourteen year olds.

Now seriously go read my post and you'll understand why people are pissed at game journalism in general.

That's the thing, man, you don't get it. You believe my problem is that swearing is an atrocity. I never said anything like that.

It's like you completely ignored everything I said and came up with an argument I never made.

If after all I've said, you can't see the point I'm making then that's on you.

I can take different sides when it merits that. If and when journalists act unethically I'll be right there saying that's unacceptable and when gamers act like dicks I'm going to point that out too.

A-HA! A-MOTHERFUCKING-HA!

So you were just being lazy! When my comment is not much longer than a tweet suddenly you muster the willpower to read it to the end.

Maybe this explains how your opinion seems to be so pro-journalists, it wouldn't surprise me if all your knowledge base on this controversy came from twitter.

Now who's-a done-a talking to who? Meesa, sir, donna-talka to you.

Considering that a tweet is 140 characters, your wall of text was more like 50 tweets.

I tried to be reasonable with you and you just insult me.

Goodbye and bless your heart.

 

[kael013]

A post of yours from another thread:

As a gamer of close to 40 years, I've seen the way female gamers have been treated like 2nd class gamers. Whether it was in the arcades and now online. Some of harassment I've witnessed was disturbing.

The gaming industry, like other aspects of life have tipping points, and now that women and like-minded men are fighting back against those males, who think they can treat others badly, there's been so much whining, anger, and lashing out when they refuse to put up with the bullshit.

Don't blame feminists, blame the people who brought us to where we are, those people who thought it was OK to sexually harass and use racist and homophobic slurs.

For people who claim there's an agenda, there is and it's called progress.

If you don't think that there's enough balance, start your own gaming website and discuss the plight of the white, male gamer.

My deepest and sincerest apologies for not being calm after someone accuses me of lying. What was I thinking? I also shouldn't have to put up a disclaimer that says I'm not talking about all gamers, I mean come on.

First off they didn't accuse you of lying, they accused you of being lazy and not listening to their side of the argument before using blanket statements. Completely different things. Secondly, we know you aren't talking about all gamers just dicks - or "the white, male gamer", as that's how that seems to have translated in your head. Now, as a white male gamer, I find that statement to be insulting. I've never felt that my place in the gaming community was in danger, but thank you for lumping me in there too with that blanket statement. Also, why is it only [b/]white[/b] male gamers? Misogyny isn't limited to only one race - women's rights in the Middle East for example are horrible and women have been killed for trying to improve them - so why are you trying to make it out like that?

That's what baffles me. I've never seen anyone say ALL gamers are dicks, yet some gamers are getting offended when clearly the discussion has been about dickish behavior, harassment, and abuse.

Why is it so hard to distinguish between the two? It's almost like it's intentional.

Because people on [i/]at least[/i] one side don't want to distinguish between the two and would rather tar everyone against them with the same brush. Read the Jensen spoiler below and when you're done tell me you didn't get upset at that.

Why are people that don't harass, say sexist and racist things getting so defensive when they aren't the people we're talking about?

Why? From the first page of this thread: K. Thor Jensen - (Videogames Journalist)

Spoiler

and Helena Horten - (Videogames Journalist for Vice)

Spoiler

I'm a gamer, I enjoy video games. As such, I'm a subhuman who needs to be exterminated (for the good of the Reich!). I'm a man, so I need to be killed because other men I'll never know or meet have said some truly disgusting shit. That's why [i/]I'm[/i] getting so defensive.

Just because I didn't comment about Zoe Quinn or the guy that compared gamers to ISIS, it doesn't mean I'm on their side.

You're right, it doesn't and your overall moral stance is great. An end to harassment and racism and sexism would be a wonderful thing. Shame there's so much mud-slinging from both sides - hell, there's mud-slinging [i/]within[/i] both sides as people will yell at you even for disagreeing with them over small details.

Howsabout we take a deep breath and start over without the sweeping generalizations? Is that too much to ask? (I'm talking to everyone here not just you AkaDad)

 

[Dragonbums]

Ugh... i'm glad the devs are paying attention but seriously they need to get the press to call off the social extremists.

Social extremists? The statement says "Diversity is good, please report harassment when you see it, make online communities a more fun place to be." What is so extreme about that?

Note how it's not signed by Anita Sarkeesian... EDIT: Zoe Quinn on. 1 more. Hopefully that quells the extremists.

Considering how Anita taking a shit is enough to warrant a 10 page tumor about her, do you honestly fucking think she is going to put her name on that list?

 

[Atmos Duality]

Ugh... i'm glad the devs are paying attention but seriously they need to get the press to call off the social extremists.

Social extremists? The statement says "Diversity is good, please report harassment when you see it, make online communities a more fun place to be." What is so extreme about that?

Note how it's not signed by Anita Sarkeesian... EDIT: Zoe Quinn on. 1 more. Hopefully that quells the extremists.

Considering how Anita taking a shit is enough to warrant a 10 page tumor about her, do you honestly fucking think she is going to put her name on that list?

At that point, I think the real question is what does she have to lose by signing it?
She evacuated her home due to death threats; barring real harm or death, it can't really get any worse for her.

EDIT:
Found this gem of nonsense...

I bet if you put all the stupid things games journalists have said then compared that to all the death threats and stupid things gamers have said just against Anita it wouldn't even be close.

...

Gamers have been treating reviewers and journalists like shit for so long it's not even comparable.

If you didn't engage in all the shitty behavior then I'm not talking about you, so don't bother me with your comments telling me how great you are and that it's only a handful of gamers that act like dicks.

Alright so...what's your point?
Is it to say that anonymous trolls and bigots will sling shit at anything they think is vulnerable?

If so, well congrats for stating the bloody obvious. Tell me something I don't know.

Is it to excuse the journalists who slung their own shit?
Well if so, I'm calling bullshit.

A per-capita comparison isn't going prove anything other than that journalists are outnumbered by anonymous nobodies. Nor does it justify their breaches in conduct.

For one, just because anon trolls throw more shit doesn't make the journalists' shit smell any nicer.

Second, and I ask you to forgive my presumption but...aren't journalists professionals?
Maybe, just MAYBE we should hold them to a higher standard than "Asshole Troll McNobody"?
Just a thought.

 

[Dragonbums]

Over 2100 gamers have also condemned hate speech!


http://www.change.org/p/the-gaming-industry-please-stop-the-hate

Hurray for them too! Yay, gamers...umm...no?

Ok

nah, didn't you hear?

Fuck Gamers.

The Escapist isn't about gaming news, it's about pushing a SJW agenda that self victimizes women in gaming while making so many straw men that it should set up a factory.

Cause fuck Gamers, right? it's not like without gamers the games industry, and by proxy games journalism, wont exist, right?

I mean, that's just silly. If Gamers aren't buying games, then there wouldn't be a need for people to write about games...... OH. WAIT A SECOND.

That's a lot of accusations thrown at a website that was nice enough to keep open that 480+ page monstrosity for discussion long after other threads like it would of been locked after page 12.

 

[Dragonbums]

Ugh... i'm glad the devs are paying attention but seriously they need to get the press to call off the social extremists.

Social extremists? The statement says "Diversity is good, please report harassment when you see it, make online communities a more fun place to be." What is so extreme about that?

Note how it's not signed by Anita Sarkeesian... EDIT: Zoe Quinn on. 1 more. Hopefully that quells the extremists.

Considering how Anita taking a shit is enough to warrant a 10 page tumor about her, do you honestly fucking think she is going to put her name on that list?

At that point, I think the real question is what does she have to lose by signing it?
She evacuated her home due to death threats; barring real harm or death, it can't really get any worse for her.

Probably. Considering how the harassment towards her has gone to real life levels of creepy. I mean seriously. You people going out on a witch hunt for every journalist that so much as gave this women a positive review once under the cloak of "journal integrity".

I mean sure, Zoe put her name on there (or allegedly it's her. I'm sure anyone can say Zoe Quinn and sign their name in the petition." But Anita will do well for herself just keeping out.

She's already got enough shit for posting yet another 20 minute monologue video.

 

[Atmos Duality]

You people going out on a witch hunt for every journalist that so much as gave this women a positive review once under the cloak of "journal integrity".

"You people"?
I guess broad generalizations and guilt-by-association is just the mode of the day now.

Unless that wasn't directed at me; it's difficult to tell with tensions running as high as they are and the direct-quote response.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

They are. Give them a taste of their own medicine and all that.

They can dish it out, but they sure can't take it. It's pathetic really.

I...I don't know how to tell you guys this, but...

Expecting someone who purports to be a journalist or figurehead in the gaming community to hold themselves to a higher standard of ethics (ie. not going off on tantrums on their Twitters, calling for camps and such) than, say, that guy in League who called you a "Fucking ******," is not in any way indicative of an inability to take abuse.

We take abuse all the time. It just so happens that said abuse mostly comes from fellow gamers.

And, now, apparently from journalists too.

 

[Dragonbums]

You people going out on a witch hunt for every journalist that so much as gave this women a positive review once under the cloak of "journal integrity".

"You people"?
I guess broad generalizations and guilt-by-association is just the mode of the day now.

Unless that wasn't directed at me; it's difficult to tell with tensions running as high as they are and the direct-quote response.

...it wasn't directed at you.

 

[Darkmantle]

We believe that everyone, no matter what gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion has the right to play games, criticize games and make games without getting harassed or threatened. It is the diversity of our community that allows games to flourish.

We agree. Hence the term "gamer", which is all-inclusive.

Just to pull you up there - the term gamer isn't inclusive or exclusive. No more than, say, police officer or student. There was a time when women couldn't be police officers and African American's couldn't attend schools (I can provide sources if you would like them). So the terms police officer and student weren't inclusive and the terms themselves didn't mean "no blacks" or "no women" but none the less, people were excluded. See, it's not the title that is inclusive or exclusive, it's the community and the culture.

"Person" isn't all-inclusive today depending on which individual or group of people you wish to have define it. What's your point? Because it seems like you're being flippant for the sake of being flippant.

Could you show me which group you have seen saying person is not an inclusive term?

Furries. Faekin/otherkin.

Those are off the top of my head. It's arbitrary man. Honestly this is a dead end point, I shouldnt have even engaged, but here I am now. If whether or not "gamer" or "person" is "inclusive" is the crux of your position, it's probably not a good position.

 

[Strazdas]

Ok i now officialy dont know what is going on. When game developers start acting more friendly than everyone else i have to admit i think i got into some kind of alternate universe or something. I knew this was going to get big, but damn im proud of you internet.

 

[KazeAizen]

They are. Give them a taste of their own medicine and all that.

They can dish it out, but they sure can't take it. It's pathetic really.

I...I don't know how to tell you guys this, but...

Expecting someone who purports to be a journalist or figurehead in the gaming community to hold themselves to a higher standard of ethics (ie. not going off on tantrums on their Twitters, calling for camps and such) than, say, that guy in League who called you a "Fucking ******," is not in any way indicative of an inability to take abuse.

We take abuse all the time. It just so happens that said abuse mostly comes from fellow gamers.

And, now, apparently from journalists too.

The people who are active get stuff done. Game journalists and the like have tried to be calm and either address this stuff in the past with reason or simply brushed it off as no big deal. The damn has broken now though. They are descending into the realm where the evil ones dwell and taken to their tactics because that's all that is left to them. They've tried being nice in the past and this particular guy. He's not even a games media person. He's a movie person who has always been very much this abrasive. Its bled into his world now and he's freaking pissed off about it. The reasonable people on the opposition have one option left to them. That is if you really want to make this about corruption or have very good reasons why feminism doesn't belong in games or rather why Anita does a terrible job. The only option left to the logical side of that coin is for them to duck and cover. Sort it out and bring your concerns out when the battle is over and the dust has cleared. That's why I'm utterly baffled in this whole situation. The people with brains, and I know their are, on the opposite side of the fence as me hasn't put together that trying to throw your voice in right now is suicide. You'll be taken down with everyone else.

 

[Darkmantle]

We believe that everyone, no matter what gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion has the right to play games, criticize games and make games without getting harassed or threatened. It is the diversity of our community that allows games to flourish.

We agree. Hence the term "gamer", which is all-inclusive.

Just to pull you up there - the term gamer isn't inclusive or exclusive. No more than, say, police officer or student. There was a time when women couldn't be police officers and African American's couldn't attend schools (I can provide sources if you would like them). So the terms police officer and student weren't inclusive and the terms themselves didn't mean "no blacks" or "no women" but none the less, people were excluded. See, it's not the title that is inclusive or exclusive, it's the community and the culture.

"Person" isn't all-inclusive today depending on which individual or group of people you wish to have define it. What's your point? Because it seems like you're being flippant for the sake of being flippant.

Could you show me which group you have seen saying person is not an inclusive term?

Furries. Faekin/otherkin.

Those are off the top of my head. It's arbitrary man. Honestly this is a dead end point, I shouldnt have even engaged, but here I am now. If whether or not "gamer" or "person" is "inclusive" is the crux of your position, it's probably not a good position.

Could you show me any such person claiming the term person isn't inclusive?

The crux of my argument was that there is a portion of the gaming community that either believes or contributes to the idea that many female gamers aren't gamers, because they don't play "real" games. Terms like "casual" and "fake" spring to mind. The person I was arguing with made a claim (that person is not inclusive) and I asked them to supply evidence of this claim.

I just listed two broad groups that choose to not identify as "persons". the term would be, by definition, not inclusive to them.

This is still just a nitpick argument though.

 

[Darkmantle]

They are. Give them a taste of their own medicine and all that.

They can dish it out, but they sure can't take it. It's pathetic really.

I...I don't know how to tell you guys this, but...

Expecting someone who purports to be a journalist or figurehead in the gaming community to hold themselves to a higher standard of ethics (ie. not going off on tantrums on their Twitters, calling for camps and such) than, say, that guy in League who called you a "Fucking ******," is not in any way indicative of an inability to take abuse.

We take abuse all the time. It just so happens that said abuse mostly comes from fellow gamers.

And, now, apparently from journalists too.

The people who are active get stuff done. Game journalists and the like have tried to be calm and either address this stuff in the past with reason or simply brushed it off as no big deal. The damn has broken now though. They are descending into the realm where the evil ones dwell and taken to their tactics because that's all that is left to them. They've tried being nice in the past and this particular guy. He's not even a games media person. He's a movie person who has always been very much this abrasive. Its bled into his world now and he's freaking pissed off about it. The reasonable people on the opposition have one option left to them. That is if you really want to make this about corruption or have very good reasons why feminism doesn't belong in games or rather why Anita does a terrible job. The only option left to the logical side of that coin is for them to duck and cover. Sort it out and bring your concerns out when the battle is over and the dust has cleared. That's why I'm utterly baffled in this whole situation. The people with brains, and I know their are, on the opposite side of the fence as me hasn't put together that trying to throw your voice in right now is suicide. You'll be taken down with everyone else.

I contest your version of events. Quite frankly gaming journalism has been getting increasing hostile to gamers in general, and it's not only about feminism. Remember ME3? Remember how anyone who disliked the ending of that game was an entitled piece of shit, and how everyone was all lumped into one big category and insulted by game journalists, regardless of their actual position?

That is one example of a trend that;s been getting worse for years. I contend that this is "gaming journalism" reaping what it has sown. When you silence dissent, mock, and insult a group of people long enough, they are going to get pissed and lash out. It sucks that for zoe here happened to be the catalyst(ha me3), just wrong place, wrong time. This was a powder keg that was going to blow sometime.

 

[DeimosMasque]

I contest your version of events. Quite frankly gaming journalism has been getting increasing hostile to gamers in general, and it's not only about feminism. Remember ME3? Remember how anyone who disliked the ending of that game was an entitled piece of shit, and how everyone was all lumped into one big category and insulted by game journalists, regardless of their actual position?

Yes I do. I also remember being accused of being a paid off shill for EA for -DARING- to like the original ending and being to debate the why I liked it and didn't think it was a total cop out or trying to point out how some of the quotes about the ending were being taken wrong or out of context.

Don't pretend any argument in gaming culture only has one righteous side and one evil side.

 

[Darkmantle]

I contest your version of events. Quite frankly gaming journalism has been getting increasing hostile to gamers in general, and it's not only about feminism. Remember ME3? Remember how anyone who disliked the ending of that game was an entitled piece of shit, and how everyone was all lumped into one big category and insulted by game journalists, regardless of their actual position?

Yes I do. I also remember being accused of being a paid off shill for EA for -DARING- to like the original ending and being to debate the why I liked it and didn't think it was a total cop out or trying to point out how some of the quotes about the ending were being taken wrong or out of context.

Don't pretend any argument in gaming culture only has one righteous side and one evil side.

I don't,

but game journalists do. Moviebob does.

Remember, everyone who didn't like the mass effect three ending is an entitled whining piece of shit, the same as everyone who thinks there is a conflict of interest is a huge misogynist and worse than ISIS.

I'l remind you that my point is that gaming journalists started it, not the other way around as is your claim. They did not act calm, they acted with "righteous anger" convinced in the moral superiority of their positions.

Frankly, I am quite enjoying the level of shouting back this time around, I'm glad this isn't going away, I hope it remains an issue for some time. These people have been brow-beating "gamers" for a while now. As such If you choose to stand in moral judgement over others, do not be surprised that those others are all over you when it's revealed there is some shady shit going on in your camp. How does the saying go? " First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye."