Overlord 2
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
I think a few good points have been made by Yahtzee. To care is a process. When you are in or reading a story, the characters and situation must be compelling to have any real effect. If a supposedly tragic story takes away or damages what you don't care about (Joss Whedon sass character) why will you feel anything less than offence at being forced to react?
That type of assumption, help this and that person for no real reason with little option to do otherwise, permeates badly written D&D adventures. You want to help such and such, they are a new acquaintance who seem okay, but not especially interesting. Proceed hero, I hold the carrot of xp and stuff-questing before you (muppet). The worst examples of this I can recall was from a pre-gen adventure. A merchant has lost his horse, taken by raiders. He is insulting yet wants it retrieved. Why would anyone assist? To decapitate and wear the horse head back into town would not satisfy the quest. The second one was a series of incidents inflicting a town on the frontier. The sheriff who always asked the pcs for help (so the story went) was a coward who did his best to not assist them at all. Naturally care did not arise for the poor village and their sheriff as all hell broke loose.
Watching the trailer to Valkyrie chronicles I silently promised to myself that if I played the game, I would march the militia leader woman who arrested the protagonist into the first hail of Nazi bullets. That is how badly I felt the game began, I wanted to join the plate-armoured nazis in killing the first npc.
If there is no connection, sense of allegiance, or even reasonable familiarity then why will there be sympathy or any emotional reaction as the story develops and becomes tragic?
That type of assumption, help this and that person for no real reason with little option to do otherwise, permeates badly written D&D adventures. You want to help such and such, they are a new acquaintance who seem okay, but not especially interesting. Proceed hero, I hold the carrot of xp and stuff-questing before you (muppet). The worst examples of this I can recall was from a pre-gen adventure. A merchant has lost his horse, taken by raiders. He is insulting yet wants it retrieved. Why would anyone assist? To decapitate and wear the horse head back into town would not satisfy the quest. The second one was a series of incidents inflicting a town on the frontier. The sheriff who always asked the pcs for help (so the story went) was a coward who did his best to not assist them at all. Naturally care did not arise for the poor village and their sheriff as all hell broke loose.
Watching the trailer to Valkyrie chronicles I silently promised to myself that if I played the game, I would march the militia leader woman who arrested the protagonist into the first hail of Nazi bullets. That is how badly I felt the game began, I wanted to join the plate-armoured nazis in killing the first npc.
If there is no connection, sense of allegiance, or even reasonable familiarity then why will there be sympathy or any emotional reaction as the story develops and becomes tragic?
I will say Yahtzee has made a very good point that I've agreed with for a long time, but I definitely think he picked the wrong game to demonstrate it upon. This is why you need actual writing in games, not programmers in meetings saying "Well I think then he should attack the evil guy's fortress." "OK, sure." The most crucial point is writing supporting characters to be likeable; so if you're given some prompt "Spend all your rupees to save X character's life for no gameplay benefit?" people CAN actually be immersed enough by that character's charm to answer "Take my firstborn too please."
I like the idea mr Croshaw.
Finally a way you can actually tell us what you think about a game rather than concentrate on the dick jokes.
Still, Overlord 2 was a decen game. 1 that should be rembered fo its uniqueness not greatness
Finally a way you can actually tell us what you think about a game rather than concentrate on the dick jokes.
Still, Overlord 2 was a decen game. 1 that should be rembered fo its uniqueness not greatness
Wow... I'll never be able to listen to that song again without thinking that. Thanks a bunch Yahtzee.
I know exactly what you mean with that one. For me it was actually a fairly simple choice as I only really used one of them, but it STILL took me a few minutes of pondering to decide.IceStar100 said:
i enjoyed Overlord 2 and Fable 2 but only for the story and the gameplay. if you want to waste time getting married and having a dozen kids or buying all the stuff for your mistresses for kicks, not achievements, and you dont realise its a HUGE waste of time then something is very wrong.
I'm glad to see Yahtzee expanding on his foamy-mouthed ranting with something like this. And of course the author in me adores seeing people I like getting ink.
Incidentally, "Hit Me With Your Best Shot" is in the same category as "Come On Eileen" in terms of unintentional dirtiness.
Incidentally, "Hit Me With Your Best Shot" is in the same category as "Come On Eileen" in terms of unintentional dirtiness.
Perhaps he should focus on updating Fullyramblomatic and maybe integrating it into the Escapist somehow..
This idea seems sort of suspect..
Still. Some great points made.
This idea seems sort of suspect..
Still. Some great points made.
This is a problem I've had with many RPGs lately.
They expect me to care for the characters, the (attention, finger quotes) "plot", the world, but don't do anything for it.
"Here, have a generic party, some horribly done romance sub-plots and a beautifully animated world. Now go save that world or it makes BOOM."
Recently, more often than not, I've had the inclination to answer with "I hope their death will be really painfully".
They expect me to care for the characters, the (attention, finger quotes) "plot", the world, but don't do anything for it.
"Here, have a generic party, some horribly done romance sub-plots and a beautifully animated world. Now go save that world or it makes BOOM."
Recently, more often than not, I've had the inclination to answer with "I hope their death will be really painfully".
I had that problem indeed, especially as stats-wise, the one I wanted to keep had lower stats.IceStar100 said:
I especially hated Ashley most when she shot my favorite teammate Wrex, arg :/ Sure, in replays I tried different settings and saved him and/or the human guy whose name I forgot, but now it's much easier to always sacrifice her despite her good stats
I was never able to unlock any love interest dialog with any of the crew however, it appears there is a bug when playing a female Sheppard (I tried to play a male one after finishing once, but the male face variations feel less detailed, and I'm kinda fond of my first pick now), you see the cutscene starting, but no text comes and they're stucked in an endless "idle animation while waiting to speak" loop), therefore I was probably less attached to some of the characters than I was supposed to.
However I haven't played Overlord 2, so I can't compare.
I'm liking the Extra Punctuation idea- him adding a little more clarification as to what he likes in a game... or doesn't like.
If your avatar is human, you will typically understand right and wrong in human terms. For this reason, "good" and "evil" make sense in a game like Fable. But it's true your personality doesn't carry over.
One of the main reasons for games is the title for this site: Escapism. That's why games where you play an accountant doing taxes are not as popular as games where you're a superhero. But escapism isn't just about having adventures you just can't have in the real world, it's also about breaking rules you can't break in the real world.
Some games are pretty explicit about this, and allow you to mow down innocent civilians, or at least drive through a city, ignoring all the rules of the road. Other games just offer an option to be "good" or "evil". Since most of us don't get to be "evil" in the real world it's only natural we gravitate towards that option in a game, especially if the game doesn't have a compelling story that makes us feel like we really are the main character.
One of the main reasons for games is the title for this site: Escapism. That's why games where you play an accountant doing taxes are not as popular as games where you're a superhero. But escapism isn't just about having adventures you just can't have in the real world, it's also about breaking rules you can't break in the real world.
Some games are pretty explicit about this, and allow you to mow down innocent civilians, or at least drive through a city, ignoring all the rules of the road. Other games just offer an option to be "good" or "evil". Since most of us don't get to be "evil" in the real world it's only natural we gravitate towards that option in a game, especially if the game doesn't have a compelling story that makes us feel like we really are the main character.
Few very key things in my mind that yahtzee needs to take into account when looking at overlord 2.
A) The game is a parody and makes fun of moral choice games and many other game types.
B) The game does not make mistresses a huge part of the game, one could ignore them without any major loss.
C) There is no major moral choices in the game, its brand A of evil, or brand B of evil.
D) This is not MADE as a moral choice game unlike fable, stop making it out to be one.
Now then, my two cents:
Many times, a game will put you in the shoes of this and this hero, and expect you to care about their interests, and do what that character wants. Sometimes, the game will give back story, and rewards and whatnot for you to begin to adapt those interests. Other games will not even bother.
However. Overlord is a game about being evil, and about being evil your way. You cant say, "I don't want to be evil" or, "I want to help." It says, "Your evil, and get about doing evil." It's the same as games like GTA and hell, nearly every other game out there. In GTA, you are a criminal, and you can't go good. You can't say, I don't want to ferry drugs, or I don't want to do this mission, because the story depends on it. You play the game as a criminal, and thats that. Same in every other game. You buy that game to play as this, and you play like that. Period. Overlord is the same in this respect, and in it you play as an overlord that owns mistresses.
Now Fable seems to have yanked something in Yahtzee's head, because he now seems to feel that every game has choice and you should be able to do things your way or if it deals with a moral its a moral game. Well, I'm sorry to say, many games do not incorporate choice to that extent, and if a game offers two lanes of story that so happen to deal with a moral, even if they are the same, doesn't make it a moral game.
A) The game is a parody and makes fun of moral choice games and many other game types.
B) The game does not make mistresses a huge part of the game, one could ignore them without any major loss.
C) There is no major moral choices in the game, its brand A of evil, or brand B of evil.
D) This is not MADE as a moral choice game unlike fable, stop making it out to be one.
Now then, my two cents:
Many times, a game will put you in the shoes of this and this hero, and expect you to care about their interests, and do what that character wants. Sometimes, the game will give back story, and rewards and whatnot for you to begin to adapt those interests. Other games will not even bother.
However. Overlord is a game about being evil, and about being evil your way. You cant say, "I don't want to be evil" or, "I want to help." It says, "Your evil, and get about doing evil." It's the same as games like GTA and hell, nearly every other game out there. In GTA, you are a criminal, and you can't go good. You can't say, I don't want to ferry drugs, or I don't want to do this mission, because the story depends on it. You play the game as a criminal, and thats that. Same in every other game. You buy that game to play as this, and you play like that. Period. Overlord is the same in this respect, and in it you play as an overlord that owns mistresses.
Now Fable seems to have yanked something in Yahtzee's head, because he now seems to feel that every game has choice and you should be able to do things your way or if it deals with a moral its a moral game. Well, I'm sorry to say, many games do not incorporate choice to that extent, and if a game offers two lanes of story that so happen to deal with a moral, even if they are the same, doesn't make it a moral game.