Pakistan Bans Facebook Over "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day"

[Lazarus Long]

They think it's wrong to draw a picture of a dude who may have had some conversations with their collective imaginary friend.
I think it's wrong to destroy your daughters [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/magazine/23fob-q4-t.html] in the name of said imaginary friend.
Whose offense is more valid?

And yes, Facebook is lame. In other news, water is damp.

 

[shinrigaku]

It's really hard to argue one way or another on this topic. Of course, at least in the U.S., freedom of speech is paramount, and should not be hindered. (Do keep in mind that freedom of speech means everyone can say what they want, regardless of whether you like it or not.) However, in the first example, the country itself wants to ban Facebook. If a country believes certain content to not match their country's beliefs and governmental policies, then it has the right to ban the content. The people of Pakistan can decide through their own outlets on whether the banning is appropriate, and can't really be argued with.

However, it is a bit shocking and hypocritical for Facebook to make a stand concerning Pakistan and refuse to make the same stand for India. If those who are in charge of Facebook elect to stand firm in their company's mission statement and ideologies, it should hold true for all similar instances. I have to say that I am a little disappointed that Facebook did not follow through with India. I can only assume that there is something there to do with Facebook's business and politics with India that made this hypocrisy possible.

People are so quick to jump on the "freedom of speech" gimmick while completely neglecting the perspectives of anyone who might take offense from it.

So out of all of the different limitations and violations of your freedoms of speech, the only one you want to protest is this specific example? People aren't "protesting free speech", they're just doing it for the sake of doing it, childishly poking to get a reaction.

I won't go into details though, since I'll be opposed by everyone here, seeing as gaming communities are the most aggressive anti-religious zealots out there.

I would also like to say that I very much agree with the above statement. Taken out of the Facebook / Pakistan / India context, it seems like a very unnecessary thing to do. It feels like a bunch of schoolchildren that decided to insult the kid on a prayer mat. So you don't believe in it. Neither do I. Doesn't mean that poking fun at it is OK, but that it is mean-spirited at best and ignorant at worst.

 

[DEATHROAD]

Mohammed must have been one FUGLY bastard!

And now the Escapist is banned in Pakistan, good work.

Hahahaha,that made me lol

OT: Facebook shouldent ban the page. it puts me in mind of those types of people who call the internet evil cos its full of porn, You get OUT what you put IN, if your not looking for porn you wont find, just like if your not looking for a pic of mohammed you wont find one, jesus stupid people are stupid.

(For the record, and to make sure i dont get banned, im not calling muslims stupid, the stupid statement was more directed at the internet demonizers than anything else)

 

[chaos order]

i think that the page should not be censored(i feel a bad burning sensation inside), however i find that everyone on that page is being a little bit of a dick. thy are simply doing this in order to piss people off without discretion. they dont care if they insult normal muslims or extremists ,they just want to insult muslims in general.


on a side note: alot of people here rag on religion, saying it is obsolete and we have the miracle of science to explain how the world works. Although i do somewhat agree with you ( as a muslim im saying this with clenched teeth). But people fail to realize that religion has brought alot of science into the world. we wouldn't have astronomy or even biology without religion for that matter. Yes during the earlier ages these sciences were basic but religion set the ground work for people to try and understand the world and universe around them. i wouldnt go so far as to say without religion we wouldnt have science without religion but religion did help ALOT to help sciences start. YES religion has attempted to stop science (like with evolution) but i think of it as the student surpassing the teacher, the teacher doesn't like it too much.

Religion may have "caused" the death of millions over the ages but it wasn't the religion it self that caused the death it was people reinterpreting their faith in order to further their political or personal goals. I think i'd like to use the NRA's slogan with this (although i dont like them either) in that religion dont kill people, people kill people. science is relatively new compared to other religions so it hasnt gone through this bastardization that religion has gone through. i mean i can think of one example were science has been used to negatively catagorize others. during the enlightenment(the time being when science began to gain popularity as the main tool in explaining the world) jews were labeled as an inferior species rather than a religion and that their death or segregation from society will benefit humanity as a whole. this is the best example of how science can also be the cause of violence, and death towards people.

so yes science has replaced religion as the main tool for explaining the world and that religion should be kept in ones home and not in politics, but it has done great things as well, like spreading morality and ethics towards each other and it is the extremists or the irrationals that choose to ignore such teachings. SO religion DOES deserve respect in my opinion event to athiests, they should at least respect religion similiar to that of a museum piece that has benefited humanity more than being a detriment to it.

really? remember the dark ages? hundreds of years with literally no scientific advancements because of religion? sorry i dont mean to sound like a dick but religion has not helped science

yes im not going to deny the dark ages was a dark time for religion (see what i did there?) but as i said in my earlier post, biology and astronomy were pretty much started because of religion. When kepler calculated that the planets rotated in an ellipse rather than a circle he was driven by a religious feeling that he would be closer to god by knowing more about the universe. Now that is an example of how religion has helped science. without religion driving kepler we wouldnt have been able to go to the moon or send satelites into space.

No it's not. It's an example of a religious individual helping science. Newton, for instance, was tossed in jail for going against the Bible. Religion deserves no respect. It shows time and time again that actual fact-based research gets fought against due to bronze-age faith.

The dark ages was a wonderful time for religion, it was a purely religious time. For science, however, not at all. You know why religion tries to stop science. It's not because the 'student is exceeding the teacher'. It's because science points to one 'scary' thing....that the religious hokum in holy texts is....well....hokum.

no id have to dis agree i do believe my kepler example is an exmaple of religion helping science. kepler would not have coniniued his research based on the rotaion of planets if it wasnt for religion because he didnt like his old teacher tycho brye. and example where a religious person helping science would be newton, he was religious (i think) who developed his theories and calculations wihout inspiration from religion.

give science some time eventually ell see the same type of disputes with it as we see with religion. even south park(ironic) made an episode about it (the one where cartman goes into the future to get a wii and ends up in a future where one group of atheists are human, and the other are otters fight over which science is correct.

You say you have repsect for people but not for religion but when you insult religion you insult the way people grew up, you insult their upbringing, their belief system, and their values. Thats why religion deserves at least some respect in that religion has teaches us moral values and ethics from generation to the next. Yes religious leaders have used religion in violent manners, however it is those people who chose to ignore sections of their religion and reinterpret other parts in order to justify their cause. ITs not necassarily religion itself that is the problem its how people use it. SImilar to how science can be the cause of great destruction and great peace. science can create technologies that have helped us in our daily lives, and also created the atom bomb which killed millions.

 

[chaos order]

Well, the page is ignorant and retarded and personally, I think it should be removed. Idiots should not be tolerated.

So people who stand for free speach and freedom of press are "idiots and should not be tolerated"? I can only assume you are muslum or some other rediculous religous extremist who atempts to impose your views on others. These brave people brought opposition to muslum extremist who needed to be reminded that they can belive what they want. Don't attempt to convice the world that they are correct in their views by threatening death to all who oppose them. They brought this upon them selves with the death threats, hopefully isolation from major internet sites will make them realize there foolishness. And if not at least I will no longer have to deal with them online...

you make these people sound liker hereos even though they are complete dicks. although you may think religion is "ridiculous" but the majority of the world does not. this may be a message against muslim extremism but its also an insult to muslims in general. This pretty much makes everyone who has participated on that page somewhat of a douche. especially since they know they can do this without reprimand. this isnt "brave as you call it, its simply a page to spread hate and ignorance. AKA trolling

Heros no, hate speach no, dicks yes (everyone is in one way or another thats life), and it is a retaliation against muslum extremists correct, are other muslums offended correct. But in any fight, there will always be some included that are hurt but not the targets. And brave yeah. will you sighn your name to a page, with information about you linked to it? When extremists are threatening to kill those who draw mohammed. Yes most will go without reprimand, maybe all. But that is the point they are getting across. You can't threaten freedom of speach or press with death and hold your threat. There is religious satire on every religion why should the muslum faith be excluded? They all have their books and their gods they belive to be the truth. No I do not support any religion i do think it is ridiculous, but my opinion on religion has nothing to do with my support of the rights of free speech or free press. This includes the right to make satirical art of a religious figure.

i have no problem with "teasing" religion i find it hilarious at times but this page is simply there for shock and nothing more. i dont think that the muslsim faith should not be excluded seeing as that would make people avoid islam all togethor, however this site clearly just wants to bash the muslim faith. If this was truley an attempt to show the extremists that they were not afraid of them then they would atleast attampt not to insult the faith as whole which ecompases over 1 billion people

I disagree with the idea that this page was ment to "Bash" the muslum religion. The original idea was to defend the right to freedom of speach and press extending to the right to create religous satire. Now i do understand that some took this draw mohammad day as an excuse to "bash" the muslum faith and to them I agree are idiots. But to the true objective of the page, the concept of the day, and the true idealsits who understood the point they were trying to convay I profoundly support.

i honestly dont think that this page was simply a message against mulsim extremeism. i think your looking too deep into this page. although i havent been to the page, i dont think there is a line on it that says they dont wanna bash muslims in general, just the extremists. THis is a facebook group afterall not a meeting of idealists, and progressives.

 

[Helios_(DEL)]

Well, the page is ignorant and retarded and personally, I think it should be removed. Idiots should not be tolerated.

Hey,I take offence to that!

um off topic do you seriously like tunnel B1? just curious

 

[Jonluw]

What is all this about offending people? Is it not my right to offend whomever I like? I am not hurting anybody, I am merely doing something that conflicts with their ideology; and as long as that part of their ideology is not protected under law I would think I can offend that ideology as much as I like. I would invite them to offend me back so long as they do not break any laws or basic human rights, or outright hurt people.
I believe George Carlin once said something like "So you do something, and people get offended. So what? Let them be offended. Nothing happens."
If I do something and someone is offended by that, all that means is that we disagree on an issue. It does not, however, make the offended part right by default, as it seems many people believe.

As someone else mentioned earlier, anyone can at any point decide to be extremely offended by pants. These people will then be regarded as crazy, but if ban on pants was to be mentioned in an old book, supposedly written by a divine entity, suddenly we would have to adjust our society to fit their preferences. Is that how we want things to function?

Lastly, freedom of expression is pretty elemental for us as a society to advance. If I may remind you of an earlier occurence:
"Hey, guys! Guess what? I've been doing some calculations, and it would seem the earth is not flat after all, it's round!"
"Blasphemer! Kill him! *ahem* Gentlefolk, please ignore what that man just said, he was an esapee from the local psychiatric ward"

I know the whole "we thought the earth was flat" thing might just have been a myth, but it serves as a good example.

Edit: I do not think people should act like asses and poke fun at other people's beliefs, but it is my conviction that they have the right to. There is no law against being a dick.

 

[fenrizz]

We will draw Muhammed, and we will publish the drawings in our newspapers (and other media) if we feel like it.

We will not bend under the threat of violence.

 

[Danpascooch]

No, that's damn hypocritical

If someone in India wants to view the page, Facebook shouldn't tell them they can't

I laughed at this. If my mother were to here about this, she would rant about how Muslims invaded us, separated themselves from us and now Facebook is censoring things specifically for them. Odd how they did it in India, but not Pakistan, where the problem lies. Most people in India can just go to the Computer store and learn about proxies easily enough.

As one of those 115,000 fans who actually drew a picture of Mohammed, I say bring it on Pakistan and you other bitchy muslims. Here in the western world, and America especially, we have Freedom of Speach and Expression. Now, unless my expression causes you PHYSICAL HARM, you can ***** all you want but I don't have to do shit to accomodate you. Go ahead and threaten death, I support the rights of any person to say what they want to whomever they want. However, if you act on it, as you crazy extremist muslims tend to do, well then you are commiting an actual crime against an actual person, not a mythic figure that can take care of himself. And that is a big no no, which means you are going to burn in hell, if it actually exists.

Antagonizing ghosts, eh? You do know extremists aren't reading your post, right? From what I see you are Christian or agnostic. You seem to make something of a logical progression( even if you are {if I were to be kind} somewhat racist) and I do agree with you. But, your last 2 sentences are a bit...uhhh...extremist-like. Yes, that's right, you are somewhat of an extremist. You drew a picture of a religious figure, not for any reason other than to antagonize members of a COMPLETELY SANE AND RESPECTABLE religion. You did not draw it to support the rights of people. We all know that.(Elsewise, you are an ignoramus{I've wanted to say that forever.}, my friend.)
No offense to you, just need to rant sometimes.

I don't believe in hating or categorizing anyone for their religion, I don't believe in "bring it on" speeches either like that guy you quoted did.

I simply believe that everybody should be allowed to be exposed to what they CHOOSE to be exposed to.

That said, I didn't draw a picture myself, or even visit the page in question

 

[Ultra_Caboose]

This. There should be one more law in every single religious book:

Thy shall keep thy religion to thyself. (cookie for reference)

Ah, George Carlin himself. Why aren't there more frisbetarians out there...?

The only problem I have wih this is how the muslims react to Mohammed. I completely understand that he's an important religious icon, but they seriously need to calm down. How many Jesus jokes run through entertainment these days? Religion, just like anything else, is something you're more than welcome to take seriously, but for *deity*'s sake, please, PLEASE have a sense of humor.

 

[evilartist]

So if the muslim world considers a depiction of Mohammad "tasteless by most social standards" is it justifably censored??? That's the thing. YOUR standards are differen't than THEIR standards. You think your standards are the CORRECT ones. They're not. They're just YOUR standards. So quit basing what they SHOULD THINK on your own values.

You're right. Morality is relative. What one person with a set of standards thinks is right may be wrong to a person with another set of ideals. The difference is I don't kill people when they disregard my views; I just sigh passive aggressively and walk away. Based on your logic, we might as well say it's okay for these extremists to murder blasphemers. After all, it's all a part of their social standards, and we should respect that.

I won't deny that I think I'm more right than they are; that's the whole point of a moral debate. If they weren't making threats and killing people, I wouldn't have any problem with their standards and I would just ignore them. If they want to practice their more extreme laws, they can do so within their originating middle-eastern countries. I find it a little hard to respect a culture, though, when they're committing crimes in other first world countries that have a different set of standards that they should be respecting when living there.

Take my country, the United States, for example. Sure, this country is a melting pot of collected cultures, as were the Roman and Persian Empires. Christians can practice Christianity, Buddhists can practice Buddhism, and Muslims can practice Islam. However, there is a general outline of laws that all people must adhere to, and "murder is illegal" is one of them. These extremists can make all the protests they want, as it is a part of freedom of speech. However, a law is a law, and the law of any country we live in supersedes religious values (although, often times religion is the basis for a society's laws ).

Muslims are killing people in other countries that do not base their laws on Islamic principles. It may be okay to kill someone for depicting Muhammad in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan (and so on), but it's not okay in European countries like the Netherlands. If they want people like me to respect their standards, they need to respect the laws of the countries they chose to live in. If I chose to live in Afghanistan, and I drew a picture of Muhammad, I would expect to be put to death, because that's their laws.

your entire post is kind of laughable because either you're assuming that all muslims are extremists, or only muslim extremists get offended by depicting mohammad when that is clearly not the case.

I don't assume all Muslims are extremists, nor do I think extremists are the only ones who get offended. It didn't have to come to this, but they felt they should enforce their world views in western nations, and disregard the laws that were in place. And furthermore, it wasn't even them, it was Viacom and Comedy Central that were the catalysts for this movement, so I'm not entirely blaming Islamic radicals for my feelings on the compromise of free speech.

Don't you get it? ANY PICTURE OR DRAWING OF MOHAMMAD IS OFFENSIVE TO MUSLIMS.

You know all those buddha idols, and all those Christian paints and stainglass windows and so forth of Jesus and the holy trinity and mary and whoever else. Muslims don't have ANY OF THAT. Not even in their own mosques. Not in the Koran. Not in the prayer pamphlets. Not doodled in the side of their notebook.

Just depicting Mohammad sitting on a rock is offensive to them.

Yes, I DO GET IT. I'm not ignorant. I actually research a topic before I debate about it. I refer back to my prior point: that's fine to enforce in Islam-ran nations. Even though they have the right to get bent out of shape in any country they want, that doesn't excuse them for breaking the laws of other countries just for theirs.

Okay, so . . . you're an idiot right?

Hey now, that's just name-calling. Let's try and keep this debate level-headed and mature.

So if 300,000 thousand or so Europeans burned the american flag all across Europe, you don't think the american public, media and political system would be absolutely outraged? You don't think it would completely sour US-EU relations? If not. You're a little naive.

I'm sure there would be some outrage in the states. There would be protests in the streets on both U.S. and European soil. I'm sure, however, that we won't make death threats, go on manhunts and burn down peoples' houses. You know why? Because those actions are illegal in virtually all first-world nations. Sorry, I have to repeat myself like that. I just want to make sure you got my point.

Who's trying to convert you to islam?
For that matter, who's bombing the shit out of Iraq and Afghanistan with F-16s and so forth? Who's threatening Iran with nuclear weapons? The hypocrisy in your statement is laughable to say the least. "Muslim extremists" don't hate you because of who you are they hate you because of what the US is doing in their country and region.

YOU started it.
9-11 didn't happen because 16 guys were bored. It happened because 16 guys were pissed off because of what the US had done before that.

So it all finally comes out now. It's inevitable that a non-United States resident to blame all of America for the war in the Middle East. You just assume that the United States government speaks for all of its citizens. Therefore, it's MY fault too, right?

Hey, newsflash: I was against the invasion into the Middle East. There's nothing hypocritical about my posts. Maybe you should not make assumptions about my views, or the views about my entire nation, especially since we were all split down the middle on this war.

And no, I'm not Muslim. I'm Christian. Though my current roommate and his friends are muslim, and they're all from the heart of Islam Saudi Arabia. And I can assure you, they would not much care for this whole draw Mohammad day at all. They would rightly assume that everyone involved was just a disrespectful jackass.

All right, just checking. I hope I didn't offend you.

Depicting mohammad isn't making fun of islam, it's breaking one of their laws. A law which ALL muslims are supposed to strictly adhere to.

You say that depicting mohammad is the same as making fun of Jesus. But what you fail to realise is that the offensive part is not Mohammad playing with goats it's mohammad being drawn at all. If someone draws Jesus no one's going to get mad. If they draw him playing with goats they'll get mad because of the circumstances he was drawn in.

Do you get it?

Yep, I got it well before I joined in this topic. And by the way, I'm not suggesting that depicting Muhammad is equal to making fun of Jesus from Islam's perspective. If they want to adhere to those laws about not depicting Muhammad, that's fine. The law about putting people to death for doing so, though, is something they should restrict to Islamic countries. That's not the law over here, nor in the Netherlands. What happened to Theo Van Gogh was illegal and unjustified by their laws.

The assault on Lars Vilks and the burning of his house were uncalled for, not just from the standpoint of the established local laws, but to anyone with common sense. I hope you can agree with me on that.

 

[evilartist]

A better idea would have been to not do this event. Instead, by taking the complaint specifically to the media networks about censorship and the role of free speech, possibly even to the point of protests, it would have been far easier to engage Muslims themselves in the debate. Regardless of the extent, any sort of international attention of such a cause could adequately express the value we hold in freedom of speech, as well as not draw conflict and rabid emotion to the forefront that could get in the way of reasoned discourse.

Conflict and rabid emotion that could result from, say, the equivalent of demonstrating free speech via a massive group of people essentially shouting "your mother's a whore" at the top of their lungs. Aside from fueling the fundamentalist ideology that western peoples and their values are inherently opposed to Islam (and doing absolutely fuck all to their plans), even those Muslims who might otherwise be willing to listen (keep in mind, even during the Danish cartoon controversy, most of the protests never turned violent, and the single biggest protest action was several nations organizing a boycott) are going to get their backs up. You can get a man's attention by turkey-slapping him, but basic psychology points out that he's not going to be favorably inclined towards you or your opinions.

You make a good point, and I didn't even bother thinking that just angry emails and protests against media companies could be effective. I just feel like it isn't enough, though. What if they ignore the negative feedback?

You do bring up a good idea, though: we could just boycott Comedy Central. Boycotting has always been an extremely effective tool of protest.

 

[Eldarion]

Well, the page is ignorant and retarded and personally, I think it should be removed. Idiots should not be tolerated.

Yes, one religion should get to decide what is or isn't appropriate content for everyone. That makes sense.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Well, the page is ignorant and retarded and personally, I think it should be removed. Idiots should not be tolerated.

Yes, one religion should get to decide what is or isn't appropriate content for everyone. That makes sense.

Well I've already explained this once. I may as well do it again.

The page is needlessly offensive to Muslims, the whole thing could be handled much more maturely. Just because you have freedom of speech doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid insults, regardless of what the opposition does to you. The page just makes things worse, and if people decide to react like this the whole thing is never going to end. Even though I realise this kind of thing will probably never die down completely, it doesn't mean we can't at least attempt to resolve it.

 

[chronobreak]

Wonderful, people fanning the flames of Religious furor we are already trying to quelch with our young men and women serving in our armed forces. Yeah, freedom of speech is great, tell that to the person who gets beheaded or otherwise killed over this, or tell it to their family.

 

[Jonluw]

Snip
It's not about fear, it's about respect. Respecting the beliefs of millions of muslims who are actually living their lives like muslims and practicing the peace that their prophet preaches.

Snip

Respect people's beliefs, and you know what, they might actually start to respect yours. Disrespect them and you'll receive the same in turn.

Thing is though: You don't have to respect other people's beliefs. You don't have to respect other people at all.

You should respect other people, sure, it makes for a nicer place to live; but you don't have to respect them. Go ahead and disrespect whoever you like, then they can disrespect you back, and that's fine, but when they start killing people over not being respected, something went horribly wrong somewhere.

 

[Eldarion]

Well, the page is ignorant and retarded and personally, I think it should be removed. Idiots should not be tolerated.

Yes, one religion should get to decide what is or isn't appropriate content for everyone. That makes sense.

Well I've already explained this once. I may as well do it again.

The page is needlessly offensive to Muslims, the whole thing could be handled much more maturely. Just because you have freedom of speech doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid insults, regardless of what the opposition does to you. The page just makes things worse, and if people decide to react like this the whole thing is never going to end. Even though I realise this kind of thing will probably never die down completely, it doesn't mean we can't at least attempt to resolve it.

I don't think the apparent rudeness is relevant to be honest. Thats not the issue. I do not believe that just because one religion thinks drawing someone is wrong that everyone must adhere to that. Besides, just because they could avoid insults does not mean they have to. The right to free speech and free expression means you can say and do anything you want even if someone's panties are gonna get in a twist. The internet is free for everyone to use and to see a country ban a site because is offends the majorities religion pisses me off.

 

[Templar9]

Am i the only one that knows that Pakistan and India are different countries that have been in a state of cold war for 50 years because of their religous differences?