Poll: Are you a feminist?

[BloatedGuppy]

When I left this thread yesterday, it was a remarkably staid discussion about the definition of the term feminism.

I came back today because someone had quoted me, to discover the thread had turned into this...

Spoiler

It's not the far right that gave feminism A bad name, it's feminists and feminist organizations I've interacted with that have given them a bad name. Using bad statistics is the most common problem. Being sexist themselves normally comes right after.

BREX, is that you? Did you get a new account?

Look, here's the issue. Here's what you're doing. Let's pretend I'm one of your nasty feminists.

"It's not women that are giving men a bad name, it's the men and male organizations we've been forced to interact with that are giving them a bad name."

You have to look pretty fucking hard to find the kind of man hating, bared-tooth feminist that hand-wave quotes like yours above seem to imply are EVERYWHERE. You're not even bothering to make the lazy distinction between "feminism" in its definition proper and "radical feminism", and even the latter has degrees.

You have to remember that when you go off about "feminists"...or any ideology or theology or gender or race or social group of any definition...you are talking about people, and those people are individuals. There is never a single unifying belief or trait that all of them share. There isn't even a single unifying definition of the word, since people hate dictionaries and consider it more fun to apply their own buttfuck definition to things to make clarity in conversation impossible.

So yeah. Long story short, this is basically the problem in this thread. Generalizations, generalizations, generalizations. Fueled by raging confirmation biases.

 

[Evilpigeon]

What I've never understood is why feminism keeps such an obviously gendered label if it's dedicated to equal rights between the sexes - seems like a bad idea to continue to paint yourself with a label that provokes an 'us vs them' reaction. I think it was probably more necessary in the past but to be honest I'd say all it does now is discourage people from taking up with the cause.

I think it's mostly due to the fact that once a movement has a name in popular culture that's what popular culture is going to call it from here on out. It's the same with 'liberal' or 'conservative' or any other label.

The movement behind the label will shift and move and evolve over time, but the label will stick.

I mean, if all Feminists started calling themselves Womanists that would be fine and dandy but everybody else would still think of them as Feminists, right?

For a bit perhaps but it's certainly possible to rebrand movements. Off the top of my head an example might be Labour and 'new' Labour i.e. Tony Blair. The Labour party rebranded itself, in part to separate itself from previous labour governments and this swayed a lot of people as the country had been run by the conservative party for nearly 20 years.

I won't make a suggestion for a rename of the movement but there are certainly prominant feminist thinkers from the past that people would like to distance themselves from, as well as a very long lived political smear campaign. I'd have to do a google search to drum up examples though.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I fail to see the logic behind "looks like a Man/Woman and therefore is a Man/Woman". That's kind of like if I were to paint black stripes on a white horse and claim that it is now a Zebra. I don't really care, I'm open, but that doesn't mean that everyone else has to play pretend too.

Because if you honestly believe that men and women are equal, and should not be treated differently in any way that was any remote bearing on ethics, then why not simply call them what they want to be called?

I do. That however doesn't mean that I don't understand what issues others could have with that. Like I said, it's a mental barrier.

And if you agree that X and Y are equal on every ground (and you can't tell them apart), then why bother with claiming that they "really aren't X/Y"?

Because it was relevant? If someone wants to make a point that they aren't lying if they are a Transgender Woman and refer to themselves as a woman, I see nothing wrong with pointing out that they are only a woman in a strictly legal sense and that that has no bearing on what the person had originally been refering to when they spoke of it as lying. In other words, I am acknowledging that the first person used a poor choice of words, that it should however be clear what they meant and that the response has no meaning in the context.

They are functionally the exact same thing as the "real deal" (except when it comes to childbirth, obviously), and unless you plan to have sex with them, why does it matter?

It kind of breaks the horses back if you are going to say that the are the same thing and then must immediantly add a difference between the two. Reproduction is kind of important when it comes to issues of sex and gender. Also, the guy originally spoke of Traps, I could be wrong, but I believe that implies that the person does not wish to sexually engage with someone who was originally of the same sex.

My advice is to read up more on sex reassignment and the difference between sex and gender. That way, you'll know the answers to those questions

Or you could put your money where your mouth is and answer yourself, how about that?

I've noticed that, in general, there's about a 0% chance of a sufficiently angry person absorbing information from the person they're angry at. Too much pride involved. If, on the other hand, you look up this info yourself, you can get it from a source you're not motivated to disagree with.

 

[MetalGearblack]

Yes and I donated a dollar to the "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games", yes I know it's not a lot, but she already has a lot of backing and I felt bad because of the crap she was getting.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I do. That however doesn't mean that I don't understand what issues others could have with that. Like I said, it's a mental barrier.

It was a little more than a "mental barrier" in that one guy's case. It was more of a Great Wall O' Hatred.

I think the point of view of transgendered people is that saying one has a "mental barrier" about accepting them as their chosen gender is equivalent to saying you have a "mental barrier" about accepting other races as human. The "mental barrier" in question has a name, and the name is bigotry.

THAT SAID...I tend to agree with you that being transgendered is a kind of exceptional circumstance, and as people do get into relationships for different reasons...including reproduction...it's something you most certainly want to be very up front about. Not because you don't want to be a SCARY TRAP trying to surprise people, but because it's highly pertinent information that a potential romantic partner should have a right to know.

Naturally, not all of them will be up front about it, for various reasons. I suspect in many cases it's because Transphobia is still very prevalent and even somewhat socially acceptable, and they may fear the reaction, or even fear for their physical safety. In other cases, it might be because they self identify as a woman/man so strongly they feel like their past gender is irrelevant. Or it might just be because they're a jerk. TG's can be shitty people too. As individuals, of course. Not as a collective.

Oh ************ I'm talking about transgendered issues in the feminism thread now. GODDAMIT.

 

[mad825]

Okay, a quick proof:

1) An egalitarian wants equal rights and protection for all people under the law.

2) A feminist wants equal rights and protection for all women under the law.

3) All women are people.

Ergo:

All egalitarians are feminists.

QED.

logic fail.

The idea of feminism is to stand for one sex only (felmales) while egalitarians are more broader in terms of view as they try to look from both sides.Feminist don't care about males. vice versa for masculinism.

 

[Evilpigeon]

For a bit perhaps but it's certainly possible to rebrand movements. Off the top of my head an example might be Labour and 'new' Labour i.e. Tony Blair. The Labour party rebranded itself, in part to separate itself from previous labour governments and this swayed a lot of people as the country had been run by the conservative party for nearly 20 years.

I won't make a suggestion for a rename of the movement but there are certainly prominant feminist thinkers from the past that people would like to distance themselves from, as well as a very long lived political smear campaign. I'd have to do a google search to drum up examples though.

Well, I'd say it is a bit easier for something like a political party, since they're a more coherent organization, with membership and leadership and ostensibly a headquarters and such. Feminism is a bit less like Labour Party and a bit more like Hippies, if that makes sense.

Also, this is kinda quibbling and not at all important since I knew what you meant, but it's kinda funny that the example you used was rebranding the Labour Party as . . . the Labour Party?

The thing was it actually worked

On a serious note: I get what you mean I know it wouldn't be easy but it's just that, well look through this thread and count the number of people who'd probably agree with the basic tenets of feminism but are unwilling to be associated with the label.

I think it'd really help the progress of gender equality. Hell if you're a masochist go read through more of the sexism threads on the forum and watch how fast they divide into us vs them across the genders, it's really not a divide you want to encourage if you're aiming for equal rights.

 

[J-meMalone]

I would consider myself an egalitarian; I believe in equality among all humans, not just between the sexes.

I wish I could hug you right now, this is exactly how I feel.

The idea of a feminist being someone who supports equality for both genders. The "femme" part doesn't refer to men people...

It is sad that feminism's become such a dirty word to some, it should be such a nice thing, but a select few feminists and some bad journalist ruined it for the rest of them.

 

[mad825]

Okay, a quick proof:

1) An egalitarian wants equal rights and protection for all people under the law.

2) A feminist wants equal rights and protection for all women under the law.

3) All women are people.

Ergo:

All egalitarians are feminists.

QED.

logic fail.

The idea of feminism is to stand for one sex only (felmales) while egalitarians are more broader in terms of view as they try to look from both sides.

And where is the failing in the logic? You said exactly what I did.

there are two football teams A and B.

The feminists support team A, masculinism support team B and egalitarians support A and B.

 

[him over there]

No, not because I'm opposed to the ideals I just don't care. I'm passive to the issue.

 

[Active Schizophrenic]

I wouldn't call myself a feminist as much as I would call myself a humanist. I belive that every human being is %100 equal and should not be judged on their gender, race, sexuality, religion(or lack of), political views or anything else. It just so happens that women, racial minorities and the LBGTP are not treated equally in today's society.

Edit: thanks rest of the thread! Apparently this is called being egalitarian!

 

[The Last Nomad]

I consider myself more of an-anti feminist. Because feminist(including every connotation of it) implies that women's are unequal to men and need fighting for. Bit sexist in itself if you ask me.

But I try to stay away from these kinda discussions. Only posting here cos I bored as hell and the woman is taking too long in the kitchen with mah dinner.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Are you a feminist?

If yes, then have you done anything active to advocate the equality of women's rights?

Incidentally, I am not asking why/why not you are/are not a feminist; that topic has been overdone already.

Yes. I am a Third Wave Feminist.

If you don't like Feminism, then you are probably thinking about Second Wave Feminism. Seriously, look up Third Wave. We're good people.

What have I done? Other than teaching people about Third Wave? Last year I participated in Slut Walk.

 

[Assassinscreed548]

I'm a humanist, motherfuckers!
The way I see it, there's a reason we even have two different sexes to begin with.
If we were built or structured as a society to be equal in everything we do, there would be no need for a different sex and over time we'd evolve into a self-reproducing organism, YO!
Think of it as two puzzle pieces, they're not the same, but they if they were, they wouldn't fit together and manage to be part of a greater cause.
The world needs to acknowledge that and find a good balance in order to work together, like balancing out a scale, YO!
Now I thinking women need their rights too, that's cool.. I'm all for that.. I think we need equal rights in order to work together, but equal rights should not be mistaken with the bullshit ass attitude that is coming from feminism, YO.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The idea of feminism is to stand for one sex only (felmales) while egalitarians are more broader in terms of view as they try to look from both sides.

The idea of feminism is that it acquired its name due to the fact that one gender was commonly being treated as subservient to the other. It was meant to be a tool for social reform. It's also why we talk about "gay rights" and not "sexual preference rights". When guys feel threatened and insist feminism is boomeranging and fucking up their privileges, we call it "mens rights".

Really not that dramatic a concept. The concept that feminism is some private army of women trying to castrate men, either literally or figuratively, has never been true anywhere other than our whimsical imaginations.

It is sad that feminism's become such a dirty word to some, it should be such a nice thing, but a select few feminists and some bad journalist ruined it for the rest of them.

I think we can include a substantial body of very, very excitable and paranoid men in the equation if we're parceling out blame for the colloquial abuse of the word feminism.

 

[Evilpigeon]

there are two football teams A and B.

The feminists support team A, masculinism support team B and egalitarians support A and B.

Ever studied set theory? Feminism is a subset of egalitarianism therefore all egalitarians are feminists.

 

[Kroxile]

I voted no because while I do believe the genders should be equal (and they are, for the most part) I also believe equality goes both ways and the whole feminism "movement" has gone from stopping abuse in the household and getting voting rights to "Waahhh, you can't say that!" as evidenced by Daniel Tosh's recent troubles.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

I can only facepalm at people here.

1. Male and Female creatures are not same, thus not equal. But they both deserve same rights and opportunities.

Which they don't. We still have people fighting over what a woman can do with her body, we still have horrible gender roles placed upon woman and men by society and we still have patriarchal societies all over the world. Its not equal.
2.

2. Feminism is not for equal rights nor it is for equal opportunities. Want prof? - Gender quotas in job places and universities forcing to take in females that are not as qualified and throwing away males that are more qualified (eg. male with average mark 8 from 10 from school doesn't get place in university because of gender quota making female get to university with average mark of 6 from 10. Is that fair? Someone that is more qualified, smarter and harder working is thrown away because of their SEX as long as they are male). Feminism lowered job requirements for women. Look at police and firefighter job qualification requirements - weaker females are welcome - males not.

Wrong. Wrong on DOZENS of levels. First off, there are more woman then men in colleges across the country. That's a statistical fact and it says one of two things. 1) Either less men are going to college then woman or 2) Woman are beating men in terms of qualifications. As for the case of woman in firefighting and police work, can I see some of that in writing please because I'm not finding it anywhere and I'm beginning to highly doubt your credibility.

3. Feminism and law: Woman attack man - man goes to jail. Woman KILLS man after he asks for divorce - woman goes free. Woman cuts off pen1s of man asking for divorce - woman goes free + becomes role model. Man slaps woman in self defense (woman attacked) - gets beaten up by every other "feminist" male around + goes to police as the one to have assaulted. According to US laws : only man can rape, woman can't be rapist. Married man can't force his wife to have sex with him, in france if man doesn't please his wife when she wants he can get fined.

*Sigh* This is just....I don't...*Sigh* this is standard anti-feminism bullshit that, 1) isn't true and 2) just paranoia. If a woman attacks a man, she is going to jail for assault and battery as well. In the case of the "Cut off penis" shtick, she wasn't exactly "Free to go", she was found innocent due to insanity and that can be just as a bad if not WORSE then being found guilty.

4. Feminism propaganda: Women are only ones experiencing domestic violence - false, women as likely to cause domestic violence as men. All men shares guilt of being rapists and violence against women - yah...

You're right, it does happen to both sexes, theres only one minor problem, woman tend to be abused and rape ON A MUCH LARGER SCALE! You can argue that "Some men don't report the problem!" but I doubt there are that many men out there that are causing such a drastic difference in the stats http://www.nij.gov/pubs-sum/183781.htm.

5. feminism and sexism: sexism against women - bad, sexism against men - ok.

No, it isn't and any standard feminist would tell you that. Feminsim is about equality among races, genders, sexes, ages, etc etc etc. The woman you asked us to visit on Youtube is not a feminist and even denies that she is a feminist herself in one of her videos (And she would be right, she does not meet the definition or the goals of the movement. There will always be men who hate woman and women who hate men, but please, do us all a favor and stop being so paranoid around the idea of feminism. What you are mad at is not Feminism.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

...as evidenced by Daniel Tosh's recent troubles.

Feminism and Rape Culture are not the same thing. While Feminists and women are often ardent defenders of the theory behind Rape Culture (for what should be fairly obvious reasons), what happened with Daniel Tosh had nothing to do with "Feminism".

 

[maddawg IAJI]

The word feminist was clearly meant to have a female bias, just look at the word! What's next? Should believing in equality of races make you a negroist? This is stupid.

The word was used as an insult during the 1st wave of Feminism to describe men who supported the idea of woman being able to vote. When second wave came around, woman saw the letters and adopted it as the name. Its not meant to show bias, it was just used to poke fun at a bunch of close-minded people and it ended up taking off.