Poll: Auto industry bailout: Should congress do it?

[Hevoo]

I find it very disheartening to see so many people vote no. When they most likely don't understand what is at risk.

2.5 million jobs directly connected to the Auto Makers on top of 15 million that heavily relay on them.

 

[cronotose]

Why is this even a discussion? Should private companies get free money for ruining their own buisness? OF COURSE NOT. Sure people will lose jobs at first, but that leaves a whole in the market that will inevitably be filled by someone else, who will also need employees.
What drives me up the wall is people act like Bailout money comes out of thin air. Every dollar the government spends eventually comes out of our pockets. Even if you only taxed the richest 10% in the country so as to spare the bottom from the impact, the top 10% won't be able to employ the bottom 90% anymore because they can't afford it.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Crimson, you're kinda going in two directions at the same time. On the one hand you argue that hybrids aren't a bad thing, not because of the mistaken belief of them being enviro-friendly, but because they save money. Now you say things will never progress if we shy away from them for being expensive...

Hybrids suck. They are as bad or worse than a comparable internal combustion engine vehicle when it comes to pollution (overall, not just tailpipe), and cost more. It's the worst of both worlds.

Also, to be clear. I wasn't saying that the batteries themselves were the same price as a new car, but after six years, the value of the car is less than half of what you paid for it. On a 25-30 thousand dollar car, to then be valued at 12.5-15 thousand at best, eight grand on batteries (last I heard, they run 7-10K for sedans, 10-12 for SUVs/trucks) is a bit much to spend. Especially as the value of the car will be less than half if traded in at a dealer (BS about pre-owned certification) minus the cost for the batteries still. Making the vehicle as a whole, damn near worthless.

Then let me state everything I'm trying to say at once. Right now, hybrids are expensive and so are the batteries because they are considered "experimental" by your average American, even though there is nothing experimental about them, but that's the way they are viewed. There are people like you who won't buy them because they are too expensive and there are other people who won't buy them because they haven't "proved themselves" yet. If it were to become more common to have a hybrid or a full on electric (which I really want because they are awesome), the price of the batteries will go down, insurance companies won't see anything special and rates will return to normal, and the initial cost will plummet. We can't all play the wait and see approach, some of us retards have to go out and buy these things.

 

[Hevoo]

Let me put this simply, if they fail, we are in a depression. 2.5 million people get laid off, with in a matter of a few weeks.

Then all your parents, will get laid off, and you will be in the poor house, no internet, no fun.

Lies and misinformation. Half or more of the American Auto Workers Union (or whatever they're called) are employed by foreign auto companies with factories in the US. And as with any business failure, once Ford/GM/Chrysler collapse, Toyota and Honda will sweep in and steal their market share. Toyota will need more workers to open new production lines, and since they already have contracts with the union, only the laziest workers won't get snatched up by other factories.

Also worth note, with Ford no longer being a Canadian company, us cannucks have no vested interest in the auto workers union or the US car markets. We're just as happy buying Japanese or German.

Wrong.

Ford is American..... May have factories in Canada but its American 100%.

Next, wrong with the Unions.

Only the big 3 have unions the other Auto makers dont have Unions. The Avg pay for a Union worker is 25 dollars an hour, the avg for a non-union is 17 Dollars.

And to state that Union workers are lazy, I know Union workers. They are not lazy, and you are Canadian and the last time I heard, Americans dictate US policy, so shove it.

Its our money, we will spend it the way we want.

Also, You Canadian, we employ a massive amount of you people with our 3 big auto makers. You most likely want this to happen, and its not going to cost you a thing....

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Also, You Canadian, we employ a massive amount of you people with our 3 big auto makers

Here in the UK too.

My older brother works at the Vauxhall plant in Ellsmere port here in England. That plant is owned by General Motors. They are already on a three day week, being given basic pay. All overtime has halted, and they have been told unless things pick up the plant will likely close in the new year.

They have cars coming off the line they can't sell, that is what has to change. Giving them money, or lending it too them, might delay them going into closure but it certainly isn't going to do much more than delay. If they want enough money so they can last until recovery... that might be years away.

 

[The Kind Cannibal]

Entire state's economy will be hit hard if certain automakers go under. Alabama for example is 2nd in the nation behind Detroit in automobile output. Thats a metric fuckton of people out of work. I'm not saying the reasons are good, but the consequences might just outweigh the "I broke my toy, gimme a new one" logic.

 

[Hevoo]

Also, You Canadian, we employ a massive amount of you people with our 3 big auto makers

Here in the UK too.

My older brother works at the Vauxhall plant in Ellsmere port here in England. That plant is owned by General Motors. They are already on a three day week, being given basic pay. All overtime has halted, and they have been told unless things pick up the plant will likely close in the new year.

They have cars coming off the line they can't sell, that is what has to change. Giving them money, or lending it too them, might delay them going into closure but it certainly isn't going to do much more than delay. If they want enough money so they can last until recovery... that might be years away.

SEE, my point is made stronger you LET THESE COMPANIES FALL IT EFFECTS THE WHOLE WORLD... China(GM is the largest Auto Marker there) Europe, Canada, US, etc etc. Don't do anything and watch this place burn.

 

[Hevoo]

Why is this even a discussion? Should private companies get free money for ruining their own buisness? OF COURSE NOT. Sure people will lose jobs at first, but that leaves a whole in the market that will inevitably be filled by someone else, who will also need employees.
What drives me up the wall is people act like Bailout money comes out of thin air. Every dollar the government spends eventually comes out of our pockets. Even if you only taxed the richest 10% in the country so as to spare the bottom from the impact, the top 10% won't be able to employ the bottom 90% anymore because they can't afford it.

OOOH. I like this guy. First post and he's making sense and a good argument.

Crimson, you're kinda going in two directions at the same time. On the one hand you argue that hybrids aren't a bad thing, not because of the mistaken belief of them being enviro-friendly, but because they save money. Now you say things will never progress if we shy away from them for being expensive...

Hybrids suck. They are as bad or worse than a comparable internal combustion engine vehicle when it comes to pollution (overall, not just tailpipe), and cost more. It's the worst of both worlds.

Also, to be clear. I wasn't saying that the batteries themselves were the same price as a new car, but after six years, the value of the car is less than half of what you paid for it. On a 25-30 thousand dollar car, to then be valued at 12.5-15 thousand at best, eight grand on batteries (last I heard, they run 7-10K for sedans, 10-12 for SUVs/trucks) is a bit much to spend. Especially as the value of the car will be less than half if traded in at a dealer (BS about pre-owned certification) minus the cost for the batteries still. Making the vehicle as a whole, damn near worthless.

Then let me state everything I'm trying to say at once. Right now, hybrids are expensive and so are the batteries because they are considered "experimental" by your average American, even though there is nothing experimental about them, but that's the way they are viewed. There are people like you who won't buy them because they are too expensive and there are other people who won't buy them because they haven't "proved themselves" yet. If it were to become more common to have a hybrid or a full on electric (which I really want because they are awesome), the price of the batteries will go down, insurance companies won't see anything special and rates will return to normal, and the initial cost will plummet. We can't all play the wait and see approach, some of us retards have to go out and buy these things.

You're still running on the assumption that hybrid and/or electric vehicles are the direction we should be traveling. Anyone remember Minidiscs? They were better than CDs, and if enough people supported them they wouldn't have been so expensive. Where are they now? Dead, because DVD was an even better alternative. That's how I see Hybrids. With the hydrogen fuel cell still on the horizon, and clean diesel engines now in use, I see better alternatives to support.

Words

Even if I'm wrong about the unions, my main point still stands. Toyota, Nissan, Volvo, Voltzwagon, Hyundai... These companies, who didn't make retarded mistakes, will take over the slack from losing the big three, and yes some jobs will be lost, but many will find new employment with the foreign companies.

Germany is bailing out there Auto makers as well.

Some JOBS SOME!!! 15 million that would make 17% unemployment. That a depression. There are no jobs, to get to support a family on at least.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Also, You Canadian, we employ a massive amount of you people with our 3 big auto makers

Here in the UK too.

My older brother works at the Vauxhall plant in Ellsmere port here in England. That plant is owned by General Motors. They are already on a three day week, being given basic pay. All overtime has halted, and they have been told unless things pick up the plant will likely close in the new year.

They have cars coming off the line they can't sell, that is what has to change. Giving them money, or lending it too them, might delay them going into closure but it certainly isn't going to do much more than delay. If they want enough money so they can last until recovery... that might be years away.

SEE, my point is made stronger you LET THESE COMPANIES FALL IT EFFECTS THE WHOLE WORLD... China(GM is the largest Auto Marker there) Europe, Canada, US, etc etc. Don't do anything and watch this place burn.

Yep. I was actually agreeing with you Hevoo.

In many ways the USA is getting screwed over. Not only are they paying to help corporations which have been filthy rich for years stay afloat, but every single nation which has a large demographic of employees working for Ford or GM will potentially benefit without paying anything.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Why is this even a discussion? Should private companies get free money for ruining their own buisness? OF COURSE NOT. Sure people will lose jobs at first, but that leaves a whole in the market that will inevitably be filled by someone else, who will also need employees.
What drives me up the wall is people act like Bailout money comes out of thin air. Every dollar the government spends eventually comes out of our pockets. Even if you only taxed the richest 10% in the country so as to spare the bottom from the impact, the top 10% won't be able to employ the bottom 90% anymore because they can't afford it.

OOOH. I like this guy. First post and he's making sense and a good argument.

Crimson, you're kinda going in two directions at the same time. On the one hand you argue that hybrids aren't a bad thing, not because of the mistaken belief of them being enviro-friendly, but because they save money. Now you say things will never progress if we shy away from them for being expensive...

Hybrids suck. They are as bad or worse than a comparable internal combustion engine vehicle when it comes to pollution (overall, not just tailpipe), and cost more. It's the worst of both worlds.

Also, to be clear. I wasn't saying that the batteries themselves were the same price as a new car, but after six years, the value of the car is less than half of what you paid for it. On a 25-30 thousand dollar car, to then be valued at 12.5-15 thousand at best, eight grand on batteries (last I heard, they run 7-10K for sedans, 10-12 for SUVs/trucks) is a bit much to spend. Especially as the value of the car will be less than half if traded in at a dealer (BS about pre-owned certification) minus the cost for the batteries still. Making the vehicle as a whole, damn near worthless.

Then let me state everything I'm trying to say at once. Right now, hybrids are expensive and so are the batteries because they are considered "experimental" by your average American, even though there is nothing experimental about them, but that's the way they are viewed. There are people like you who won't buy them because they are too expensive and there are other people who won't buy them because they haven't "proved themselves" yet. If it were to become more common to have a hybrid or a full on electric (which I really want because they are awesome), the price of the batteries will go down, insurance companies won't see anything special and rates will return to normal, and the initial cost will plummet. We can't all play the wait and see approach, some of us retards have to go out and buy these things.

You're still running on the assumption that hybrid and/or electric vehicles are the direction we should be traveling. Anyone remember Minidiscs? They were better than CDs, and if enough people supported them they wouldn't have been so expensive. Where are they now? Dead, because DVD was an even better alternative. That's how I see Hybrids. With the hydrogen fuel cell still on the horizon, and clean diesel engines now in use, I see better alternatives to support.

Words

Even if I'm wrong about the unions, my main point still stands. Toyota, Nissan, Volvo, Voltzwagon, Hyundai... These companies, who didn't make retarded mistakes, will take over the slack from losing the big three, and yes some jobs will be lost, but many will find new employment with the foreign companies.

Fair enough, I'm really just pointing it out for sake of argument. But continuing that, you could easily make a diesel hybrid, it's just that the type of person who drives a diesel and the kind of person who drives a hybrid don't overlap much. And a hydrogen car is the electric part of the hybrid with hydrogen gas. It's going to cost a bunch as well. In fact, Honda has one right [a href="http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/"]now[/a]. I don't know about car renting, but how expensive is $600 a month? It's going to cost money down the road, but the fuel cell stack is the only thing not in use by hybrids right now, so maybe we should be working on that so if commercially available hydrogen cars come out, they'll be cheaper.

But I'm more of a pure electric vehicle for the speed and power. It's not cheap in initial cost, it's just for power.

 

[Hevoo]

Also, You Canadian, we employ a massive amount of you people with our 3 big auto makers

Here in the UK too.

My older brother works at the Vauxhall plant in Ellsmere port here in England. That plant is owned by General Motors. They are already on a three day week, being given basic pay. All overtime has halted, and they have been told unless things pick up the plant will likely close in the new year.

They have cars coming off the line they can't sell, that is what has to change. Giving them money, or lending it too them, might delay them going into closure but it certainly isn't going to do much more than delay. If they want enough money so they can last until recovery... that might be years away.

SEE, my point is made stronger you LET THESE COMPANIES FALL IT EFFECTS THE WHOLE WORLD... China(GM is the largest Auto Marker there) Europe, Canada, US, etc etc. Don't do anything and watch this place burn.

Yep. I was actually agreeing with you Hevoo.

In many ways the USA is getting screwed over. Not only are they paying to help corporations which have been filthy rich for years stay afloat, but every single nation which has a large demographic of employees working for Ford or GM will potentially benefit without paying anything.

We saved your ass in WW2 and we are doing it again. No thanks needed.

 

[Arsen]

Maybe if these companies would actually stop trying to make it rich, their CEO's would take a paycut, and they started to make vehicles Americans want to buy, then maybe I'd be willing to lend them a sympathetic ear.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Even if I'm wrong about the unions, my main point still stands. Toyota, Nissan, Volvo, Voltzwagon, Hyundai... These companies, who didn't make retarded mistakes, will take over the slack from losing the big three, and yes some jobs will be lost, but many will find new employment with the foreign companies.

Nope. Doesn't work like that. If the big three being discussed go under masses of jobs will be lost. Not just directly, but indirectly. All the suppliers of components to those places, all the cafes where the workers take their lunch breaks, all the steel works who produce materials for them... the knock-on effect is enormous.

Then what happens?

All those people who loose their jobs don't just get new ones. They end up out of work, unemployed. This means they stop buying shit... like TVs and fridges and gardening equipment.

Then what happens?

People making TVs start to loose their jobs, people making and repairing fridges loose their jobs, people in shops selling these things loose their jobs, people supplying gardening loose their jobs, delivery drivers who normally drive this shit around all loose their jobs.

Then what happens?

They stop buying Toyotas, Nissans, etc. Then they loose their jobs.

This is the brink of a serious recession, and it is going to take confidence to avoid falling into it. Confidence enough to get people to actually keep buying shit and keep each other in jobs. This what these various bailouts are about - securing the jobs of the rank and file worker so they think they are still going to have a job tomorrow thus will keep on working.

Of course, the flaw originates from a handfull of people who took all the cash for themselves and moved to a tax haven, a practice that should have been stopped long ago. The bailouts should be paid for by them, not the taxpayer. The various governments don't seem to have the balls to take them on though.

 

[The Kind Cannibal]

Maybe a plan to bail them out slowly, like the span of 7-10 years so they slowly decline while the smaller companys pick up the slack effectivly evening out the employ and consumer load so if one or more falls then the effect isn't this massive if they do.

 

[jonmcnamara]

What is the point in bailing them out? So we bail them out those people dont get laid off, and everyone can make more cars that no one wants? I dont understand the logic.

I dont see these companys having a great idea and they just need "starting" money to convert over and fix everything, so it seems to me you are going to pay these companys to pay people (hahah to the % that is actually going to go into paying workers) to make more cars that no one will buy.

Its a stall tactic, you are paying people money from themselves (which they don't have apparently) to work somewhere making a product no one will buy. Hell why not pay people to paint all grass blue.

If you give them the money, they will likely close plants, cut shifts, lower production, and we get to pay for it still.

If we dont, they will close plants, cut shifts, lower production...

If you need me, I'm going to figure out a profitable business that can be formed from the nice labor pool we are going to have anyways.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

What is the point in bailing them out? So we bail them out those people dont get laid off, and everyone can make more cars that no one wants? I dont understand the logic.

Exactly. I don't see the logic in solidifying tax payer money into expensive cars that nobody wants while providing the most round about method of welfare to union workers. If the government really cares about these jobs they should be brokering a buyout of the soon to be bankrupt assets to try and ensure that some factories and jobs will remain in place but only producing cars or goods for another company.