Poll: Bioware needs to grow up
- Thread starter BloatedGuppy
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Don't get me wrong the Child of Bhaal thing I'm fine with but it's just another example of making the main character special, they can't just be an average fighter/thief or whatever. I love Wrex too but he's still a stereotype and I think Merill was the final nail in the coffin for my unquestionable love of Bioware with me.Versuvius said:
Yay Planescape and Black Isle!BloatedGuppy said:
I think the best example of moral choice in a recent game is Alpha Protocol. Sure, in places, the gameplay is terrible, and it's horribly buggy. But in terms of choice - meaningful choices, and actual dilemmas, it was great.
"Moral choice" basically has two meanings, I think and games tend to use one, whilst people clamour for the other.
The first is a standard good/evil choice (save orphanage, electrocute kittens). This is a choice of alignment, really.
The second is rather more complex, and involves choosing the lesser of two evils. People can die, in Alpha Protocol, central characters, depending on what choices you make. THOSE are moral choices - and you got perks and bonuses for it, veering your personality, as well as your background, in particular directions. This was morality done well. It's just a shame the package was a little rough.
Here we go...
When you break down the stories to their smallest components, yeah, they seem quite juvenile and cliche. However, a lot of great stories throughout history have had rather simple stories but really kicked people in the ass with their execution. Star Wars is the Joseph Campbell story down to the letter, but the film was rather grim. Luke Skywalker sees his surrogate parents' scorched corpses, the Empire blows up an entire planet, Han Solo murders a guy... people weren't used to seeing Sergio Leone style grit in a hokey sci-fi adventure serial. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are the exact same way. I won't argue on Kotor though. While Kotor 2 is incredibly mature and has themes that ask the player as many questions as Planescape did, Kotor was just kind of ridiculous. But, moving on.
Mass Effect: At it's core you do have a story to stop evil robots. However, look at every backstory element and narrative event that drives you to that point. You have stories that deal with the age of globalism, the ethics of an exponentially increasing rate of technological growth, parallels with important events in human history and so on. There is a simple story with an incredibly detailed world surrounding it. It's basically like a more modern cross between Babylon 5 and Star Trek.
Dragon Age: You couldn't be more wrong about this story. Unlike Knights of the Old Republic, while there is a grand, malevolent force that you have to stop, the story is driving much deeper themes than "Evil is bad!" It's built all around service and sacrifice and finding the best way to do what's right. Yes, your overall goal is to save the kingdom, but the game spends a lot of time trying to find out why. There is actual room for personal character development, which isn't common in games like these. Also, there are very few moments in the game where you are given a plain, black and white motive for what's going on. Also...
Remember, stories are often a vehicle to drive themes. This has been a big thing in cinema for a long time due to their short runtimes. Game developers took a lot of cues from cinema. Just because the story is simple does not mean that the game is simple. Planescape could have had a much more basic "Kill the bad thing!" story and still driven the same themes it did. It wouldn't have been as good, but it certainly wouldn't have been juvenile. That very idea is ridiculous.
When you break down the stories to their smallest components, yeah, they seem quite juvenile and cliche. However, a lot of great stories throughout history have had rather simple stories but really kicked people in the ass with their execution. Star Wars is the Joseph Campbell story down to the letter, but the film was rather grim. Luke Skywalker sees his surrogate parents' scorched corpses, the Empire blows up an entire planet, Han Solo murders a guy... people weren't used to seeing Sergio Leone style grit in a hokey sci-fi adventure serial. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are the exact same way. I won't argue on Kotor though. While Kotor 2 is incredibly mature and has themes that ask the player as many questions as Planescape did, Kotor was just kind of ridiculous. But, moving on.
Mass Effect: At it's core you do have a story to stop evil robots. However, look at every backstory element and narrative event that drives you to that point. You have stories that deal with the age of globalism, the ethics of an exponentially increasing rate of technological growth, parallels with important events in human history and so on. There is a simple story with an incredibly detailed world surrounding it. It's basically like a more modern cross between Babylon 5 and Star Trek.
Dragon Age: You couldn't be more wrong about this story. Unlike Knights of the Old Republic, while there is a grand, malevolent force that you have to stop, the story is driving much deeper themes than "Evil is bad!" It's built all around service and sacrifice and finding the best way to do what's right. Yes, your overall goal is to save the kingdom, but the game spends a lot of time trying to find out why. There is actual room for personal character development, which isn't common in games like these. Also, there are very few moments in the game where you are given a plain, black and white motive for what's going on. Also...
It drives the theme to the point where not only can your character die in the final battle, but there isn't really a typical, happy ending even available. You either refuse Morrigan's ritual and fight the Archdemon knowing you won't walk away from it alive, or you accept her ritual and live with the knowledge that Flemeth's loose cannon daughter is going to spring a dark god from her loins.
Remember, stories are often a vehicle to drive themes. This has been a big thing in cinema for a long time due to their short runtimes. Game developers took a lot of cues from cinema. Just because the story is simple does not mean that the game is simple. Planescape could have had a much more basic "Kill the bad thing!" story and still driven the same themes it did. It wouldn't have been as good, but it certainly wouldn't have been juvenile. That very idea is ridiculous.
You missed that some of their characters are LITERALLY cut and paste.Deathninja19 said:
Annah, from Planescape Torment - a red-head thief with demonic heritage.
Neeshka, from NWN2 - a red-head thief with demonic heritage
Sharwyn, from NWN1 - a red-head bard (ok, not a thief, but close enough). No demonic heritage though.
Nalia, from BG2 - a red-head rogue (ok, rogue/mage)
Imoen - a red (and occasionally pink) haired rogue
Ok yes, SOME difference, but its all variations on a very similar theme...
2 of those games aren't BioWare games, I'll let you guess which.Susurrus said:
And while yeah, I agree completely they recycle characters, most of those characters that you have just specified, are significantly different from each other personality wise. Red-headed thief girl is really all they have in common. The ones I complain about are the basic Carth or Bastila characters that have shown up in every one of their games since KOTOR.
Yes, I know. But the point still stands. Very similar characters appear across the board (and its Annah and Neeshka anyway, which means that the two types are separated - demonic red-head thief for one, red-head thief for the other...)AlternatePFG said:
I can't take any of Star Wars seriously, because the dialogue is a complete mess. What isn't hackneyed or inappropriate is entirely cliched. I can't take any of the characters at face value. The entire thing collapses under the weight of bad writing. Whenever its on, and I want to watch a bit, I mute it, because having no sound effects is better than having to listen to the drivel of their conversation.Wolfenbarg said:
Perhaps it's because I just finished re-reading Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy, or perhaps it's because I just finished re-watching The Wire, but I find my appetite for exhausted fantasy and sci-fi tropes and slap-dash attempts at representing political/ethical strife more annoying than maybe I should. Maybe my standards are too high, and maybe I'm being unreasonable in expecting more from Bioware in this area. There have certainly been some impassioned defenses of the subtlety of their storytelling. I'm not blind to those moments in which they reach beyond the more hackneyed elements in their plotting, but I've always felt they've been too few and too far between to supply the primary narrative thrust with any real thematic depth or resonance. But I may just be old and fussy.Wolfenbarg said:
I played through the entire thing. The characters are inconsistent, the dialogue is bland, the acting also ranges from bland to might-work-if-the-entire-game-was-goofy-but-it-isn't-so-they-don't, and the only thing I can remember from the story is that missiles were stolen, and the government was conspiring with an evil PMC; and the only reason I can remember that is because its the same repeated plot elements used in all those types of stories.Satsuki666 said:
And that's just the writing.
Bethesda make all the Elder Scrolls games, not Obsidian/Black Isle.cora mcstrap said:
This thread needs MOAR immaturity...
HOW COME I COULDN'T SEE MY CHARACTER AND HER LOVE INTEREST IN THEIR UNDERWEAR IN DRAGON AGE TWO MAN THAT IS SO MUCH BS I AM SO ANGRY AT THAT.
/endimmaturity
I think their writing is alright, personally. Really, it's the codexes and extra background information that really gets me into the stories. I find it fascinating to learn more about the world that I'm playing in, beyond what I'm told in quests and can figure out just by looking around or fighting bad guys.
HOW COME I COULDN'T SEE MY CHARACTER AND HER LOVE INTEREST IN THEIR UNDERWEAR IN DRAGON AGE TWO MAN THAT IS SO MUCH BS I AM SO ANGRY AT THAT.
/endimmaturity
I think their writing is alright, personally. Really, it's the codexes and extra background information that really gets me into the stories. I find it fascinating to learn more about the world that I'm playing in, beyond what I'm told in quests and can figure out just by looking around or fighting bad guys.
I actually just beat Planescape Torment, and the thing that I have to say is this: It was actually by Black Isle.
Who went on to become...
OBSIDIAN!
NATCH!
Who went on to become...
OBSIDIAN!
NATCH!
Missiles are used and not stolen, apologies for the minor slip-up. Other then that, Halbech are still a big, bad PMC and missiles of a questionable origin are involved.Satsuki666 said:
So yes, 100% wrong, if by "wrong" you mean "off by a minor detail". Unless you're suggesting my opinion is wrong, in which case I'll commend you on that utterly wonderful defence of your point of view that you tried to act smarmy with when you quoted me.
To some extent. Obsidian is a portion of Black Isle, which was a portion of Interplay. The difference between Interplay and Obsidian is Interplay was actually able to release functional games.Namewithheld said:
I kind of wish EA would just buy Obsidian and fold them into Bioware, but then Obsidian would get that icky EA taint all over them.
roughly this.Liberaliter said:
yeah bioware probably CAN do a bit better, but i've enjoyed every single one of their games up until now, and i'm not going to act like the elitist fan who demands more about it.
besides obsidian, who is my favorite btw, i have yet to see a developer who even comes close to telling stories in the same fashion/better than bioware, so if they come along, awesome, if not, no complaining here.
Save the world plots are rather boring now. I found myself just slogging through to the Landsmeet in DA:O because my efforts would finally pay off. I also found that my choices were being affected by which party members I was romancing at the time. I chose depending on which companion romance achievement I was going for and I know thats wrong but its what happenned.
I think that the moral choices need to be on a smaller scale, just like the story. Keep it tight with a central cast of characters that involve the protagonist, the antagonist the companions that have a part to play and other interesting guys and gals.
Sort of close to topic, I was playing L.A. Noire today and the moral choice in that game which you never really get to carry out but is discussed is who to lock up.
Right, in one case there are two suspects for a murder, one man is the husband of the victim and all evidence points to him but is just an average sort of guy that almost certainly wont murder anyone else. He looks guilty but is not a threat to anyone else. If you convict him you let a child molester walk free.
The other guy is a child molester that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and gets identified as a suspect. If you convict him you are letting a probable killer walk free but stopping this man from convicting other crimes.
Who do you lock up? Which one really needs to feel justice? Let the player decide if the actual killer or the molester goes to jail but also which one goes free. Also make the players feel the consequences of their choices a bit more starkly. In the previous example if you convict the first man then let us see how awful the child molester can be. He reoffends and the player wonders if they made the right choice earlier. If you convict the second man other characters hear rumours that you let a killer go free to get someone else and confront you with it.
For my choices I want the final decision to be set out in front of me, the options are clear but the consequences aren't, they come later and each choice will have negative consequences. The Fable 3 throne room choices are sort of what I'm looking for with each side getting to present its case but without the clearly good/bad options and the angelic good A or the firey hellish X. Even if I refuse to choose show consequences. In DA2 I met a character that wanted my help in tracking down an assasin who has already killed some people. I wanted to see the games much vaunted consequences in action if I ignored what may be a dangerous killer on the loose because its not my problem. I declined then waited for some sort of murder, something to show that by refusing the call to arms bad thing will happen. Nothing did and I think all developers could learn that 'By not choosing, you are making a choice.'
Phew, long rant.
I think that the moral choices need to be on a smaller scale, just like the story. Keep it tight with a central cast of characters that involve the protagonist, the antagonist the companions that have a part to play and other interesting guys and gals.
Sort of close to topic, I was playing L.A. Noire today and the moral choice in that game which you never really get to carry out but is discussed is who to lock up.
Right, in one case there are two suspects for a murder, one man is the husband of the victim and all evidence points to him but is just an average sort of guy that almost certainly wont murder anyone else. He looks guilty but is not a threat to anyone else. If you convict him you let a child molester walk free.
The other guy is a child molester that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and gets identified as a suspect. If you convict him you are letting a probable killer walk free but stopping this man from convicting other crimes.
Who do you lock up? Which one really needs to feel justice? Let the player decide if the actual killer or the molester goes to jail but also which one goes free. Also make the players feel the consequences of their choices a bit more starkly. In the previous example if you convict the first man then let us see how awful the child molester can be. He reoffends and the player wonders if they made the right choice earlier. If you convict the second man other characters hear rumours that you let a killer go free to get someone else and confront you with it.
For my choices I want the final decision to be set out in front of me, the options are clear but the consequences aren't, they come later and each choice will have negative consequences. The Fable 3 throne room choices are sort of what I'm looking for with each side getting to present its case but without the clearly good/bad options and the angelic good A or the firey hellish X. Even if I refuse to choose show consequences. In DA2 I met a character that wanted my help in tracking down an assasin who has already killed some people. I wanted to see the games much vaunted consequences in action if I ignored what may be a dangerous killer on the loose because its not my problem. I declined then waited for some sort of murder, something to show that by refusing the call to arms bad thing will happen. Nothing did and I think all developers could learn that 'By not choosing, you are making a choice.'
Phew, long rant.