Poll: Can pornography exist in a sexism free society?

[Jesterscup]

"Can pornography exist in a sexism free society?" - short answer, yes, but not in the form we know it.

Longer answer ( in parts).

SO firstly Lets think about the actors, Sure if they are doing it in full awareness of what they are doing and why they are doing it, and they have no issues and are happy with that career, then who could have issues with that, they are actors, performers playing a role. That being said I know, and have known, many people who have been strippers, prostitutes, burlesque performers and drag queens who have stated that the have no issues with what they do, but generally that not really the case, these sorts of career choices often have deep and long lasting implications on a persons attitude towards life and other people ( especially those of the gender paying to 'enjoy' their performance ). The sad fact is that ( yes anecdotally ) in my experience most people who take part in these sorts of roles are subverting themselves in somewhat, which is often damaging.

Yes this is a state that can be avoided in large parts, but the cause here is important, the effect on peoples psyche when they are objectified on a regular basis, the effect comes (in part at least) from being objectified by your audience.

Now for the porn itself: sadly it is the case that in most porn women are objectified, objects of lust and desire, breasts & thighs ( and other parts) there for your viewing pleasure. that is the definition of objectification. This isn't the case for all porn, but it is the case for the majority of porn, and, I suspect it's the nature of the beast.

As has been pointed out, sexualising does not always = objectification, but that is an effect that happens all too often. it is entirely possible to be an incredible object of lust and desire while being 'who' you are ( or who you want to be ) being sexual is not being objectified.

Now for laziness: Yup laziness. this applies to games as it does to porn. There is a market that will pay for something, this something has issues, but is profitable. you can make a little more effort, perhaps spend a little more money and create something that does not have (so many) issues. Part of the problem is that these media are already profitable, and partly because men dominate the workplaces ( yes in porn, women are unlikely to be anything other than actresses ), with no challenges to the status quo in the creation process, the the product being profitable, why would this change? - Not that I agree with this ethically, but it's the state of the world.

If you're hot and I don't know anything else about you, then all I know about you is that you're hot.

You always know more, there is always context. A woman in a porn film has a lot of context, and most of that context is "all i exist for is your sexual fulfilment" I'd class that as objectification. I don't disagree with most of your post in concept, but concept and reality are not the same.

Being interested only on an aspect of somebody at a given time doesn't mean that you equate that person only with that thing.

I disagree, again in context, do you ever think about anything other than a woman's sexual aspect in porn? I doubt you worry about whether she's paying her rent. Sure, if that applied to someone walking down the street ( see context again) I'd be worried if you were thinking of her in exactly the same way.


It's probably unlikely that porn will ever not be sexist, but it's a nice goal. But I doubt whether the majority of men buying porn care whether it's sexist, and thats where the profit is.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

I'm just gonna comment on the banning option.

How can anyone seriously consider banning anything nowadays? It's not a grown-up approach to a situation if you just try to shut it out completly.
It doesnt work. Not with alcohol, not with drugs and definitly not with porn. Why try the same thing over and over and expect diffrent results? That's foolish.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm just gonna comment on the banning option.

How can anyone seriously consider banning anything nowadays? It's not a grown-up approach to a situation if you just try to shut it out completly.
It doesnt work. Not with alcohol, not with drugs and definitly not with porn. Why try the same thing over and over and expect diffrent results? That's foolish.

Not entirely true...it has worked with, for example, alcohol in certain areas. How well a ban works depends in large part on how the local culture views the issue.

Having said that, can't think off the top of my head of any places in the west where banning porn would work.

 

[oreso]

I'm more concerned with the working conditions of the clothing industry than I am with the sexy media industry. There's no reason why we can't demand ethical standards for both though, of course. I'm just a bit skeptical of folks who only crusade on the sex industry; it's probably unfair, but it makes me think their objectives are more anti-sex and puritanical rather than providing support that workers want and need.

 

[Jesterscup]

I'm more concerned with the working conditions of the clothing industry than I am with the sexy media industry. There's no reason why we can't demand ethical standards for both though, of course. I'm just a bit skeptical of folks who only crusade on the sex industry; it's probably unfair, but it makes me think their objectives are more anti-sex and puritanical rather than providing support that workers want and need.

Generally people campaign on those issues that are close to them, or that they have had experience of. One of the biggest charities in the UK is for donkeys , DONKEYS! - hey I'm sure its a good cause, personally I'd rather give my time/money to something I feel more worthwhile.

Sure there are certainly some people out there who campaign for the banning of porn, for their own moralistic agenda. But there are others that campaign for better treatment of people who are little more than sex workers, and thats a largely laudable goal. I'm sure if asked most campaigners from either side would decry the treatment of sweatshop workers, but there is only so much a person can do. Beyond that, a "why don't you fight this too" is a kinda rubbish argument against someone campaigning for anything, as there will always be something they don't have the time/ability to campaign against. The porn industry has some huge issues, that spill over into human trafficking, sexual abuse, child abuse and more, I can understand why someone would see that as more of an issue than sweatshops or donkeys, but I'm not going to denounce anyone working to make the world better.

 

[Gorrath]

Most healthy minded people have no issue separating fantasy and reality.

And there I'd disagree.
If you don't have enough information about reality then mistaking fantasy for truth is easy.
If you have no context for what risks are included, how things feel like to the opposite sex, what the usual look for genitalia even is, why wouldn't porn misinform you and create false expectations?

Banning them is not the answer, however, but increased education and encouraging dialogue between partners is.
And of course bad porn can be critiqued.

Bad porn in itself (just like any entertainment) doesn't make you sexist or racist etc but it's a feedback loop that reinforces pre-existing attitudes.

You too are deluded on things, mistaking fantasy for reality. I do too. Everyone does. We are fed misconceptions all the time through media and cursory knowledge of subjects we either don't need to have indepth knowledge of, or don't care.

Some (even most) of those misconceptions are harmless. Some less so.

Sorry, I've not been on the site the last few days and so didn't get a chance to reply. I agree with everything you said here, except that I think you are missing a crucial piece here. Anyone can be fed false information and draw bad conclusions from bad evidence, but to equate that with not having a mechanism to differentiate between fantasy and reality seems absurd. Lots of people have ideas about war and the military that are influenced by the only information they have about such things, movies and the media. If those people were taken and shown what a war was actually like, they'd very quickly be able to differentiate between the fantasy depictions they had been shown and the new information they were given. A person who can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy would not be able to differentiate between movies and actual war even after being shown what actual war was like.

So sure, plenty of people can and are misinformed, but that is not the same as being unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What your description above entails is someone being bereft of proper understanding. They don't believe the fantasy because they can't tell it from reality, they simply have no basis in reality in which to compare the fantasy (false information) they have been given. If healthy minded people were generally unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, I'm sure the impending invasion of Sauron would be much higher on people's list of problems that need dealing with. And I don't mean that in a snarky way, it just illustrates that most people have no issue knowing that Middle Earth isn't a real place and their ability to make that distinction isn't the same as simply being misinformed about some facts.

 

[Jesterscup]

So sure, plenty of people can and are misinformed, but that is not the same as being unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What your description above entails is someone being bereft of proper understanding.

I don't think its about Fantasy Vs. Reality, it's about reinforcing certain attitudes that exist and are held by, if not a majority, then a sizeable minority of men. Ys sometimes these misconceptions are clear and easily dismissed ( I see no dragons, experiencing war will clearly change my attitude to it ) but others already exist and are permitted to some extent by society.

If someone feels that it's ok to treat a woman a certain way ( without respect for instance), and their own choice of fantasy porn reinforces that is that a good thing?

 

[Lieju]

So sure, plenty of people can and are misinformed, but that is not the same as being unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What your description above entails is someone being bereft of proper understanding. They don't believe the fantasy because they can't tell it from reality, they simply have no basis in reality in which to compare the fantasy (false information) they have been given. If healthy minded people were generally unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, I'm sure the impending invasion of Sauron would be much higher on people's list of problems that need dealing with. And I don't mean that in a snarky way, it just illustrates that most people have no issue knowing that Middle Earth isn't a real place and their ability to make that distinction isn't the same as simply being misinformed about some facts.

But the only reason people know Middle Earth isn't real is because they have a context for it. They know dwarves and elves and wizards aren't real, certainly that they don't exist now, because they have a working knowledge of what the world is like and that Middle Earth is a non-existent place.

My cousin thought Pokemon are real and live in Japan. Not because she was dumb, but because she was like 4 and lacked the knowledge on the world to tell what is real.

There are of course mental illnesses that can make it difficult to tell if something happened to you personally for example, or you can have delusions, but that's not what I was talking about.

And to go back to your example of Middle-Earth, it may be fantasy,but it still reinforces pre-existing attitudes and prejudices. For example, that elves are white. Because of course beautiful and wise higher creatures are white. Those kinds of things you don't even notice.

 

[Piorn]

I don't really get what sexism has to do with porn.
It's just business, both at the producing end and the consuming end. You don't know, and never will know any of these women personally anyways, so treating them as anything other than wank material while you wank to them is just lying to yourself. You might as well have dinner with a sock puppet at this point.
I'm sure all those women have personality, hopes, dreams and ambitions, just like every human, but there's still such a huge timespace divide that you shouldn't even bother.
If I asked the cashier for their life story every time I went to a store, I'd never get anything done either, but am I objectifying cashiers? no, I just don't care.

 

[Magmarock]

Humans are a sexual dimorphic species. Whatever your personal morals on porn may be; males are always more likely to be attracted to it. Same goes for the oldest profession in the world (prostitution)

Both members probably like porn but males simply have a higher libido. It's been there since the days we had to fight each other of a mate.

I'm getting a bit tired of all this, feminsiums seems to be going for a new level of stupid every time. Equality means equal quality. It doesn't mean communism, we don't' have to all be the same.

 

[Gorrath]

So sure, plenty of people can and are misinformed, but that is not the same as being unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What your description above entails is someone being bereft of proper understanding.

I don't think its about Fantasy Vs. Reality, it's about reinforcing certain attitudes that exist and are held by, if not a majority, then a sizeable minority of men. Ys sometimes these misconceptions are clear and easily dismissed ( I see no dragons, experiencing war will clearly change my attitude to it ) but others already exist and are permitted to some extent by society.

If someone feels that it's ok to treat a woman a certain way ( without respect for instance), and their own choice of fantasy porn reinforces that is that a good thing?

Right, but this gets back into thought policing again. If a guy has a poor attitude toward women and watches things that reinforce his own poor attitude, that's his own problem. It is not the job of society to restrict access to content based on the idea that some people with poor attitudes will have those poor attitudes reinforced by said content. Who decides which attitudes need to not be reinforced and which content is doing the reinforcing? You ask if it's a good thing, but that question doesn't mean much. Are you asking if it's a moral thing? Are you asking if the effect of that reinforcement is good? I think it is an amoral issue and that the effect in the instance you describe would be "bad". I also think racist attitudes are poor ones and watching racist crap to reinforce your (royal you here) racist attitudes is a "bad" thing, but I would never, ever advocate for banning material deemed "racist".

Whether or not someone might have the poor attitude about women reinforced by content they choose to consume simply isn't any of my damned business. Now if they let that poor attitude drive them to do something illegal or immoral to a woman, then we have an obligation to stand up. Banning content we feel leads to poor attitudes is something tyrants do.

 

[Gorrath]

So sure, plenty of people can and are misinformed, but that is not the same as being unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What your description above entails is someone being bereft of proper understanding. They don't believe the fantasy because they can't tell it from reality, they simply have no basis in reality in which to compare the fantasy (false information) they have been given. If healthy minded people were generally unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, I'm sure the impending invasion of Sauron would be much higher on people's list of problems that need dealing with. And I don't mean that in a snarky way, it just illustrates that most people have no issue knowing that Middle Earth isn't a real place and their ability to make that distinction isn't the same as simply being misinformed about some facts.

But the only reason people know Middle Earth isn't real is because they have a context for it. They know dwarves and elves and wizards aren't real, certainly that they don't exist now, because they have a working knowledge of what the world is like and that Middle Earth is a non-existent place.

My cousin thought Pokemon are real and live in Japan. Not because she was dumb, but because she was like 4 and lacked the knowledge on the world to tell what is real.

There are of course mental illnesses that can make it difficult to tell if something happened to you personally for example, or you can have delusions, but that's not what I was talking about.

And to go back to your example of Middle-Earth, it may be fantasy,but it still reinforces pre-existing attitudes and prejudices. For example, that elves are white. Because of course beautiful and wise higher creatures are white. Those kinds of things you don't even notice.

Right, and I don't disagree with anything you say here. I only take exception to the notion that lacking information and therefore coming to a false conclusion represents an in ability to tell the difference between fantasy and reality. Being unable to tell the difference between the two would be your young cousin going to Japan, seeing there are no real pokemon and not being able to tell if the reality they experienced in Japan was real or if the game was real. The former is, as you point out, a common error humans make due to incomplete information. The latter is indicative of mental illness. That's why I think it's important to make the huge distinction that lies between the two. I would not conflate "error based on lack of information" with "lacks the ability to discern reality from fantasy."

As for your example that someone might have a poor idea like, "white people are superior" reinforced by seeing how elves are portrayed in Middle Earth, my response is "so what?" This is not because I don't care but because I think being bogged down in attempting to discern how any piece of fantasy might reinforce poor attitudes is a waste of time. If someone thinks "white people are superior" and are of a perfectly healthy mind, then they are lacking critical information, not lacking an ability to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What would need to be fixed in this scenario isn't LotR, it would be the poor understanding of the person making the error. If someone wants to criticize LotR for having this portrayal and its possibly loaded subtext, I'm cool with that. I would, however, take extreme exception to anyone calling for a ban or boycott of the book based on that criticism though.

 

[Stg]

The moment the government starts rearing its head into consensual sex - regardless of the form - is when you know you've gone too far.

Is anyone here old enough to remember the days when you could leave your door unlocked and wide open while you went to the market? How about coming home as a kid and just walking into your neighbor's home to see what they are doing and being welcomed without question? As much as people love to think of the Cleavers and the Griffiths as being a wholesome family, even Ward and June Cleaver had sex at some point and to think that people back in those days were straight as an arrow missionary-style people it absurd. Sexual deviation has been around for eons and it will continue to thrive regardless of what people think about it morally.

 

[Gorrath]

One question: what does sexism have to do with porn?

Simple answer, a lot, because a lot of porn has sexist themes as a central point of focus. There's just not anything particularly unethical about it. The better question, I'd say, isn't what sexism has to do with porn, but what about porn do people find unethical. If they simply assert that because there is sexism in porn that it's unethical, they are going to need to back that assertion up. Not everything that is sexist/contains sexism is unethical. The same goes for objectification.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Pornography frequently involves acts of abuse and mistreatment of the actors and actresses. When the poll says that porn should stay as it is, does that mean including that?

I am a feminist and I am pro-porn. I am fine with porn and think we should destigmatise it and stand up for the actors and actresses who are, by all accounts, treated like shit. That's right, I support ethics in pornography. The only types of porn I want banned are probably already illegal (sex with children, snuff flicks, etc)

You do realize there are people who work in pornography and are happy to do so, right?

There are people who are happy to work in porn, yes. There are also plenty of people who are not.

That people have a choice if they want to work in it or not and they are paid well and there is a market for it?

Yes, and that choice is especially evident when someone tries to get out of porn and can't find employment elsewhere. Or when they lose current jobs for being discovered. Or when they enter the field due solely to financial hardship, which can lead to the other two.

Funny how "choice" starts to break down in the real world.

Although I don't especially disagree with you on any point, I have to say that none of this is particularly relevant. People are forced to take shitty jobs of all sorts for various reasons. And people are often coerced into unethical or even illegal situations by their employers(despite the employer's own policies to the contrary) because the employer knows that he can replace and employee more easily that the employee can find another or comparable job. This is contemptible behavior and should be combated wherever possible. It is not, however, an issue specific to the porn industry, but rather a problem with jobs that don't require specialized knowledge or training. Porn just happens to be one of those. It's a problem that needs to be solved on a much larger scale than any one industry.

As for the problem of post-porn employment, that's less a problem with the porn industry itself, and more with society's perception of it. In a non-puritanical sexism free society, that might be less of a problem. Not that I think such a society is coming any time soon. I'm not that much of an optimist.

 

[vledleR]

In a truly non-sexist society (which is an unobtainable hypothetical imo), it would be made extremely difficult for women, especially young women, to get into porn.

In certain feminist circles, capitalism is blamed for certain types of sexism. That certainly applies to the porn industry, especially since the advent of the internet. Most woman who get into porn have been sexually abused in some way, and almost all wouldn't even think about doing porn if it wouldn't bring the cash; There are no more than two porn actresses (that I know of) who claim they would still do porn if they had millions of dollars.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

I'd love to see a feminist porn film. I'm not sure what it would look like, but it would definitely be hilarious and probably not even slightly arousing...

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

Two words:

Gay porn.

Everyone watch glorious gay porn.

 

[Ikajo]

I don't like porn. Not at all. There is absolutely no way to know if the working conditions are even near human. People can talk themselves hoarse talking about consent, as long as real people are involved, you can never know.

And before anyone say anything stupid about food and clothes. You can't live without food. You can't live without clothes, especially if you live in the northern hemisphere like me where it drop below zero in the winter. You can live without sex and you can most certainly live without porn.

Me being against porn is not the same as being against sex. It's not the same as condemning any kind of sexual art. What I don't like is the fact that it's real humans. The majority of the porn produced is most likely produced in the very same fashion as prostitution, trafficking.

Erotica is fine, drawn sex is fine, novels with sexual themes are fine, short-stories. All that is fine, as long it's not too sick stuff, it's the true essence of fantasy.

You can be against porn and still have a positive attitude toward sex and sexuality. I actually of the opinion that it is porn that is detrimental to a positive sexuality. Porn-addiction are a very much real thing and recent studies from Sweden show that teenager whose been exposed to porn have a unhealthy consummation of the stuff (3-5h/day, young teens). It's naive to think that won't have an effect on their sex life later. And Sweden is a very sex positive country, the expected age of loosing your virginity is 17! (I read this in newspapers btw and that was a while back so to find the study you might want to do a google search. I'm hitting the hay, it's around 10p.m. where I live.)

 

[Jennacide]

The porn industry as it is now is fine. The things that 'should' be illegal, already are. Sexual slavery, torture porn, those are already illegal. But two or more consenting adults having sex on film to make a living? That's their choice, let them live how they want to live. Too many of you in this thread are focusing on how it's filmed catering toward men, that's just capitalism. They know their market and cater to it. It's not the same as forced marketing practices like the Pink Aisle in toy stores.

This is one of those things that bothers me about the current trend of up and coming feminists, the fact they're being spoken to primarily by the very vocal fringes that think all sexuality is wrong. There are pro-pornography feminists, a few in this thread even, myself included. And personally I feel that if you are a feminist you should not be taking issue with how any woman CHOOSES to live her life, but the real issues we still can't control like the gender-pay divide. Amusingly, pornography is the one place the pay divide works in reverse. (Though that is more of a issue of supply and demand dictating wage) Many women in the field are happy to be making money off of sex and enjoy it, while others don't really enjoy it and simply want the paycheck. This speaks more about the realistic availability of equal pay for women than it does say anything damning about porn itself.

I also just want to comment on one last thing that I've seen mentioned, which is the fake 'abuse' of women in some porn. First off, it is faked, and while I wish it didn't happen at all sometimes, it is a directors choice to make it for that sort of audience. If an actress didn't want to do it, they wouldn't. Heck, some of the porn actresses volunteer for it because that's what gets them off best. (Sadie West is one of the best known cases of this, so much that even I know of her) A lot of this discussion feels like it's being had from the point of onlookers assuming all women have this purity about them. Some of us like it rough, we all have our own tastes and fetishes, it's not just men that do.