Poll: Can pornography exist in a sexism free society?

[Gorrath]

The porn industry as it is now is fine. The things that 'should' be illegal, already are. Sexual slavery, torture porn, those are already illegal.

That doesn't follow that things are fine. Crimes don't stop being a problem just because they are illegal. There are serious concerns with how the porn industry works, how it should be regulated and how workers are treated.

I agree with you 100% on this point. Stating that things that should be illegal, are, and therefore there isn't a problem ignores the fact that the enforcement is freakin' lousy. It does society no good whatsoever to make laws and then promptly fail to do anything about the violations. Due to the very real and very problematic nature of the abuses in the porn industry, I would completely agree that more oversight is needed.

 

[KissingSunlight]

To answer the question in your headline: Can pornography exist in a sexism free society? My answer is no. Not because I believe pornography to be bad. It's that the bar of what is considered "sexist" has been lowered to a man looking at a woman. When people are using the term "male gaze" with utmost sincerity, you know that the conversation about gender issues have been driven wildly off the tracks.

Honestly, I am done with taking sexual objectification seriously. I live in a popular tourist destination. In the summer, I see women wearing outfits that shows off every legally allowed parts of their breasts. Also, they are wearing shorts & miniskirts that reveals the bottom of their butt cheeks. The only thing I don't see with these women is a gun to their heads or any other methods of coercions forcing them to wear these outfits. So, when I see online somebody getting upset at some videogame character wearing a skimpy outfit, I can no longer take them seriously. It's not sexism. Male characters in videogames wear skimpy outfits as well. What people are complaining about is a personal preference not a serious topic about gender issue. Let me put it this way. There are billboards in town advertising male strip clubs. Being a heterosexual man, I am not interested in looking at them. So, in a sense, they do offend me. However, I am not going to make a big issue about it and claim that the billboards are sexist, because I feel some mild discomfort at looking at shirtless male strippers.

 

[deathbydeath]

Uh...yes? Seriously, who argues against porn unless the people involved have been forced into it?

Sex-negative feminists, pretty much. At least in principle. The porn industry is as much of a sausage factory as everything else (no pun intended), but none of that is necessarily inherent; its just the result of shitty people and a shitty world.

 

[psijac]

No.

Because there will never be such a thing as a sexism free society.

You might as well ask, "Can herpes be wiped out in a unicorn only stampede?"

 

[AgDr_ODST]

I'm sorry OP but you lost me at "Sexism free society." Such a thing would be nice but it's a pie in the sky ideal at best just like a 'racism free society'.

 

[TheLastFeeder]

I think Tolkien was tapping into the whole western european fear of the few against the 'barbarian hordes', which is pretty prejudiced let's admit it. It doesn't say anything about Tolkien's character, nor does it diminish it's influence (it's pretty much the father of the standard elves, dwarves fantasy setting which I assume a lot people have liked, seeing as this is a game site) and I think no one likes censorship, but I think there is a place for acknowledging some of the darker undersides of it while still appreciating the work.

I personally think Tolkien was tapping into Völuspá, Ragnarok with the legions of monsters bent on destoying/enslaving all life seeing that it was in the Poetic Edda where 70% of all races, character names and places in Tolkien's stories seem to come from.

But I agree with that we should acknowledge the darker undertones in works we like.

 

[awolflikeyou]

The idea of porn isn't sexist, I think any healthy adult can understand the desire to get off occasionally.


However... I will say that the porn industry is right now (and for most of history) is overwhelmingly focused on the male perspective and as a woman 99% of the porn I've ever watched has kind of scared me. It just looks really painful and unpleasant- and I'm not even talking about the more hardcore stuff (I haven't had much exposure to that stuff and I don't really want to either). That's not to say I think the hardcore stuff should be illegal - as long as everyone is consenting etc.etc. then if people want to produce that for an audience so be it.

I don't think that indulging in darker or more hardcore porn affects most of people but it definitely does affect some. It might not show in the way they treat women in their everyday interactions but it definitely shows in their language (how they talk about woman in a sexual context) and how they act in the bedroom. Like any media there are some people who pick up the vernacular and attitudes. I'm not saying that everyone who watches rape porn is going to come away wanting to rape people.

The porn industry is often criticised for the more fringe and fetish stuff but I would argue that the problem is more that mainstream porn is so male-focused, and often aggressive. I think that sometimes it does have subtle effects on how people talk and interact in a sexual situations. This is particularly because most societies today have a pretty conservative attitude toward sex or try and discourage young people from being interested in it (futile) so a for a lot kids and teenagers the first sort of exposure they have is often through porn. This can be pretty damaging to both men and women as most woman in porn have been bleached, waxed and plucked within an inch of their lives and most men have um, let's says a level of stamina and set of equipment that is mostly out of the norm. Also because sex in porn is not how sex is in real life. Luckily most people figure this out but the intervening years can be problematic sometimes.

So yeah, in my opinion I think that porn as it exists right now does contribute to in part sexism (on all sides) in a lot of subtle ways but that doesn't mean that the idea of it is sexist. It would be great it catered to more of a variety of perspectives and flavours.

I do have to say thought that while I don't mind my partner indulging in a healthy amount of porn if I found out that it was super-freaky (like I'm talking rape porn or like tentacle stuff) then that would be a deal-breaker for me. Maybe that's not fair, but yeah. Just my two cents.

 

[Souther Thorn]

The general consensus among feminists that I have spoken to is that porn is okay if porn stars are treated with respect by those in charge. This includes stuff like having the option to use contraception, being paid fairly, and having sexual check-ups paid for (as STDs and stuff like that are a potential occupational hazard). Some feminists argue that the concept of porn itself is sexist but people who share that view in my experience are the minority in feminist circles.

That's been my experience by and large as well, with very healthy discussion and friends on many sides of the issue.
I've also seen and read many local examples of the alternative more militant 'All porn is anti-woman and anti-feminist' faction.
One instance at a local university was of a group protesting a male porno actor as a rape enabler, anti-woman, and thouroughly patriarchy supporting shill come to speak to the university and spread a message they disagreed with.
They were quite disappointed to discover the actor in question is gay and only performed in pornography with other men.
From the report I read (this was The Stranger up here in Seattle), they were crestfallen but continued unabated when it was decided that yes, even gay porn is anti woman, and enables rape.
I couldn't fathom that then, and I cannot now.

 

[Augustine]

<double post - no idea how to delete it>

 

[Augustine]

One thing I would want to emphasize is how little actual control we have over the pornography.
It satisfies some of our most primal needs. A REAL need
And as such, it will persevere in one form or the other regardless of what anyone will try to do to suppress/drastically change it.

My opinion of it is quite in line with that of Penn/Teller - porn is all about happy people doing what happy people do.
The form it takes on, merely reflects the society surrounding it. So if anyone wishes to "fix" pornography they ought to start with themselves and work their way outwards through the society, and the industry will change along with it.

Not that I want to suggest there is a need for it. As C.S. Lewis suggested, moral busybodies are the worst tyrants in any society.

 

[WarpZone]

*OP*

This is a fallacy that I see way too much of in "us vs them" discussions of feminism in general and feminism as it pertains to entertainment industries in particular.

Nobody wants to take your porn away. Nobody wants to take your action movies away. Nobody wants to take your video games away. Nobody wants to take your TV or your books away.

All anybody advocating for female representation in games wants is for developers to commit upfront to chasing a general audience or catering to a specialist audience. As porn has done for as long as we've had cameras.

Feminism isn't a binary property that can be true or false about a society as a whole. Sexism isn't something you can just purge from a culture. You can't turn it on or off by flipping a switch. All you can do is recognize that some interests are more niche than others, and that's okay. You can still have those things exist. Even if it's not popular, even if it's not mainstream, even if it's not generally considered to be good taste.

As long as there's a market for it or at least one artist passionate about making it, it'll still be around.

 

[Jennacide]

The porn industry as it is now is fine. The things that 'should' be illegal, already are. Sexual slavery, torture porn, those are already illegal.

That doesn't follow that things are fine. Crimes don't stop being a problem just because they are illegal. There are serious concerns with how the porn industry works, how it should be regulated and how workers are treated.

No, THAT doesn't follow. The porn industry, the actual companies making up 99% of the pornographic content, are legal companies and follow the same set of rules. While there is no standarized set of rules for how workers should be treated outside of usual work standard practices, in porn women get to choose what they will and will not do, make higher wages than men, and both sides must routinely be tested to prevent the spread of STDs.

What I think you, and a lot of others, take issue with is the amatuer scene were there are no rules, which is also where all the illegal content like beastiliaty, pedophila, and actual violence/rape goes on. They aren't part of the actual companies making the content. As such, they are held to normal laws of their area, and the law abiding porn companies should not be punished for what those fringes are doing when they are NOT doing them. Remember, it's called the 'amateur' scene because it's just people that buy camcorders or webcams and do whatever the fuck they want. Over regulating the companies already working within the law isn't going to reduce the number of sexual sadists with cameras running around, finding those sadists and prosecuting them for their crimes will. That isn't an issue of needing regulation, just better ways to enforce laws online.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The porn industry as it is now is fine. The things that 'should' be illegal, already are. Sexual slavery, torture porn, those are already illegal.

That doesn't follow that things are fine. Crimes don't stop being a problem just because they are illegal. There are serious concerns with how the porn industry works, how it should be regulated and how workers are treated.

No, THAT doesn't follow. The porn industry, the actual companies making up 99% of the pornographic content, are legal companies and follow the same set of rules. While there is no standarized set of rules for how workers should be treated outside of usual work standard practices, in porn women get to choose what they will and will not do, make higher wages than men, and both sides must routinely be tested to prevent the spread of STDs.

A company being a company doesn't mean there are no problems with it. There are any number of dodgy, if legal practices, and companies that play fast and loose with the law, in porn and in eveyr other industry.

 

[Ronald Nand]

I find the presence of pornography depicting rape, violence and 'rough sex' to be very disturbing, so I definitely support banning or censorship of that, I think it should be treated the same way as child pornography, at least for pornography depicting rape, perhaps it would be over-censorship to ban other violent porn.

Let me ask you a question I had poised to me when I once said the same thing to someone else.
Do you have a problem with consenting couples acting out rape fantasies with each other?
If the answer is no, are you not just discriminating against single people who wish to explore this particular sexual fantasy but don't have a partner to do it with?

I suppose when you put it that way, its wrong to stop someone from experiencing their sexual fantasy whether its physically or virtually. If there are two consenting adults whom want to perform rape fantasies, I have no right to stop them from doing that, even if I find what they're doing unsavory.

I'd like to think that I'm the kind of person that accepts what other people in society want to do as long as those actions do not hurt others, I don't want to be the kind of person that imposes my 'morality' upon others. However issues like this really test my ability to do this, I find this kind of content disgusting a disturbing reflection of our society as a whole.

I suppose it comes down to the depiction of negative vs the influence of that depiction. People will argue that things they like don't influence negative behavior, while at the same time arguing that things they don't like influence negative behavior.

If people can get their sexual satisfaction from watching rape porn instead of actually raping someone that I approve of rape porn, no matter how disgusting I find it. If scientific evidence proves that violent porn/rape porn reduces sexual crimes, I will just accept this type of porn's existence.

 

[Pinkilicious]

Personally I don't think it's going far enough, child-related and snuff are the only ones that should be banned, for the obvious reasonings that there are already laws against, but just as in America we here in Romania have in some communities 'community standards' and 'obscenity' laws, which can be used to charge you with a crime, even when you have done nothing wrong aside from looking at 'upsetting porn,' the most clearest case of this in the US being Mike Diana and Boiled Angel. The laws coupled with the comics code authority were also used to threaten William Gaines out of comics industry back in the 1950s, leaving them only publishing MAD and nothing else as that wasn't considered a comic under CCA. I feel the anything-goes nature of EC Comics should be emulated across all industry if one truly and freely cares for creativity. Chaos comics come a little close, but have a bit of overfocus on the 'jiggle factor' and the mentality is general mired in the 1990s 'dork age' as US comic fans would call it.

 

[Kevlar Eater]

To answer the OP's question without quoting anyone here, yes. Everyone that isn't watching tube porn is being objectified in a sense; the viewer pays for the privilege of watching people usually far more attractive than the viewer screw/masturbate/eat/bathe on camera, and the person (or people) involved in the production get a paycheck. So yes, I think it can exist in a sexism-free society. Erasing and preventing the production of pornography is just another step to a totalitarian society, in my eyes.

Objectification for everyone! Scratch that, objectification for no one! That could be just as much a celebration if one isn't into objectification, yes?

 

[Pinkilicious]

To answer the OP's question without quoting anyone here, yes. Everyone that isn't watching tube porn is being objectified in a sense; the viewer pays for the privilege of watching people usually far more attractive than the viewer screw/masturbate/eat/bathe on camera, and the person (or people) involved in the production get a paycheck. So yes, I think it can exist in a sexism-free society. Erasing and preventing the production of pornography is just another step to a totalitarian society, in my eyes.

Objectification for everyone! Scratch that, objectification for no one! That could be just as much a celebration if one isn't into objectification, yes?

I have to laugh at the appropriateness of the avatar choice for this sort of comment. :]
Being based on fully empowered actresses and fashion moguls of the past, I think she would be down with this kind of thing.

 

[Javetts Eall Raksha]

don't censor weird porn, that's how we get serial killers. do you want serial killers?

 

[Lt. Rocky]

Of course it can! Desire is desire, lust is lust, everyone has different tastes regardless of gender, and every group is always going to touch upon every kind of sexual preference. Gender and outer personality don't always define one's sexual tastes. Take me for example: I appear as your typical, almost stereotypical, white male gamer. You'd think my sexual tastes would seem straight forward..

Nope! I'll love the feminine form as much as the next guy ..but there's only one instrument out there I'd want Link to blow on personally, forget that ocarina...mmmmmmyes.

The best way to fight sexism (and racism) is with moderation. If too much porn seems aimed at masculine taste, equalize it with some new productions/companies that aim for a feminine taste. Nothing needs to change with what's already established, the less-acknowledged groups just need to be reached out towards more frequently.

 

[Inglorious891]

Objectification for everyone! Scratch that, objectification for no one! That could be just as much a celebration if one isn't into objectification, yes?

Heh, that's actually a good point. If everyone's objectified, no one's objectified.

*OP*

This is a fallacy that I see way too much of in "us vs them" discussions of feminism in general and feminism as it pertains to entertainment industries in particular.

Nobody wants to take your porn away. Nobody wants to take your action movies away. Nobody wants to take your video games away. Nobody wants to take your TV or your books away.

All anybody advocating for female representation in games wants is for developers to commit upfront to chasing a general audience or catering to a specialist audience. As porn has done for as long as we've had cameras.

Feminism isn't a binary property that can be true or false about a society as a whole. Sexism isn't something you can just purge from a culture. You can't turn it on or off by flipping a switch. All you can do is recognize that some interests are more niche than others, and that's okay. You can still have those things exist. Even if it's not popular, even if it's not mainstream, even if it's not generally considered to be good taste.

As long as there's a market for it or at least one artist passionate about making it, it'll still be around.

That's only one viewpoint of how media should change to make it less harmful to those who view it; I've seen plenty of people who suggest changing media is the way to go. I'm not saying they're the majority, just that they do exist. The point of this thread is more to respond to them versus respond to people with viewpoints like yours.

And I realize that we'll never be able to completely remove sexism in society, but if society is really striving to purge as much of it as it humanly can, would pornography have to be removed? That's more what I'm referring to.

The best way to fight sexism (and racism) is with moderation. If too much porn seems aimed at masculine taste, equalize it with some new productions/companies that aim for a feminine taste. Nothing needs to change with what's already established, the less-acknowledged groups just need to be reached out towards more frequently.

That's... an interesting idea. The big problem with more feminine porn are the questions: who's going to view it, and what is it going to consist of? There are way more men who view porn that women, so making more porn that appeals to women isn't going to be a very quick fix. The other idea is to make porn aimed at men more feminine, although what kind of porn would that be? Porn where the guy is more submissive?

I really like your idea though; it'd be especially neat if men actually started viewing more "feminine" porn.