Poll: Lack of basic mathmatical skills

[barbzilla]

c) Understanding the probability of random drops. An example is the Reins of the Ravenlord in WoW (a mount). It had like a 4% drop chance? You could only do the thing which gave a chance of it dropping once per day.
It was correct to assume that statistically you had a better chance of obtaining it within the first 25 days then any days after that.

Unfortunately, when it came to 'coming back the next day', some people believe that magically they had a greater chance of getting the mount based on the facts of the first day. They thought that they will get it by x days. No. Sadly and depressingly, every-time you return and kill the boss, it's a fresh 4% chance and a fresh 25 days FROM THAT NEW TIME.


Statistics are constantly misunderstood by humans beings who subconsciously believe in an aspect of fate or luck. At the end of the day statistics are about perspective.

Actually if you take Euler's Constant into account for statistics it does mean that they have a greater chance the next day, but this goes off of the probability of the same event occurring multiple times. You should take a look at Euler's writings on lotteries.

At the same time I agree with you, people tend to think that if the stars align properly then all of creation should be bestowed upon them. I think that is a subject for another discussion though.

 

[mad825]

You don't come off as snobish here. It would be perfectly fine if people who are unable to complete basic math problems left it alone, but the issue is people think they are right. This means that our society is unable to process basic mathematical functions such as budgeting.

I am sure it probably has something to do with the school systems, given the level of aptitude I have seen lately.

If they can't budget then they're screwed for life, right? It means nothing and you're over looking the problem.

Honestly, BIDMAS (P.E.M.D.A.S or whatever) is overrated and isn't used in day-to-day life for everyone therefore not many people care too much. It's the sort of thing you're taught in maths then forget about before the term is over when the exams are done.

I am sure you are right about me over thinking the issue. It just seems a bit off. It was drilled into my head through out school (though I didn't go through public school for most of it), and I am amazed at how few recognize the issue.

I realize that the Order of Operations may not be a major day to day issue, but it is required for you to figure out things like interest and probability. So, unless people wish to go about trusting that all is well with the people that handle their money, they should really look into improving their math skills.

Don't get me wrong I am not a math whiz by any means, I just find it deplorable that people would neglect basic arithmetic to this level.

Again, it isn't really needed. If needed be, it can be easily re-learnt (and forgotten) when necessary.

Unless you're going to open a new bank/trust account, get a new loan/mortgage or seriously going into debt then there isn't really much uses for it.

 

[Mr_Spanky]

Snip

Ok dude. Since weve now descended to the level where you just want to insult me im gonna leave it there.

I will reitterate one last point though:

There is a reason why nodoby writes things like

1+1+1+1+1+1-1+1+1+1+1+1+1-1+1x2 = ?

In a textbook or in mathematical prose. Since youre obviously a genius who doesnt need to think about making mistakes or getting things wrong it may not be obvious to you that this is simply a dumb way to write a mathematical expression. For us mere plebs anyway.

Seriously the superiority complex is just dripping off you.

Ok im done.

 

[Acton Hank]

I can do everything up to medium difficulty algebra.
I'm relatively decent at equations and expressions.
Math was never my strong suit.

 

[Ymbirtt]

What, they're crawling through all your code line by line? I think you're not telling the truth. Certainly best to be clear, but I highly doubt they'd throw your project out for a single line like that and I'm doubtful they'd necessarily scrutinize it enough to see that.

There's more to maths and CS than writing code; sometimes I have to write maths, sometimes I write reports on my code, which involves plucking out particular sections and dissecting them. In that case, if I were to consistently write statements like x+y*y-z/a*b, they would mark me down. Yes, I was exaggerating when I implied I'd be instantly failed for writing one particular line, but for my maths projects I'd be seriously penalised if every statement was written obtusely, even if it's still possible to understand it with liberal application of BIDMAS. Also, indentation isn't necessary for code to compile in a lot of languages, and it's still possible for humans to read it without indentation.

Which is an inaccurate comparison. Parentheses really aren't required to be there in certain cases by convention.

In the same way that commas aren't required to be there in certain cases by convention. I'm not saying that every single bracket is 100% necessary, in the same way that a lot of the commas I used weren't necessary. None of the brackets in 1+(5*5)-((7/1)*9) are necessary if you follow BIDMAS, but the statement is suddenly so much easier for everyone to read.

No, it means that some people made a mistake. What you wrote isn't really that hard to read at all.

Bear in mind that you read the entire thing with punctuation first, and also that just because you (one person) could read it that time doesn't mean that it's a sensible thing to write and expect everyone to be able to read. We don't write things down to be elitists and say "well I can read it so obviously everyone else can. We write things so that other people can read them and learn the same things we learned. To that end, if there's any opportunity to make your writing less obtuse, you must take it.

 

[Syzygy23]

The Mnemonic method I was taught was

Please
Excuse
My
Dear
Aunt
Sally

I find it much easier to remember the order of operations with that rather than PEMDAS.
What the FUCK is a PEMDAS?

My issue with such things, like the order of operations, is nobody will explain WHY we HAVE to use the order of operations. Why is using any other method not legitimate?

The op says that PEMDAS is simply an acronym of Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally.

As to why we use orders of operations, it's established convention. If everyone did maths however they felt like they'd get different answers. That wouldn't bode well for anything involving maths with multiple people involved (like engineering, programming or a multitude of other occupations). It's all about consistency.

Nah, I realized it was an acronym, I was just following up my statement with my reasoning as to why I found the Aunt Sally method easier to remember.

But to the meat of my question, if PEMDAS is simply there as a common method to keep people from getting off track, does it REALLY matter what order you perform an operation in? To an extent, I'm sure, but is it possible to get better, more accurate, or faster results using alternate methods?

 

[barbzilla]

The Mnemonic method I was taught was

Please
Excuse
My
Dear
Aunt
Sally

I find it much easier to remember the order of operations with that rather than PEMDAS.
What the FUCK is a PEMDAS?

My issue with such things, like the order of operations, is nobody will explain WHY we HAVE to use the order of operations. Why is using any other method not legitimate?

The op says that PEMDAS is simply an acronym of Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally.

As to why we use orders of operations, it's established convention. If everyone did maths however they felt like they'd get different answers. That wouldn't bode well for anything involving maths with multiple people involved (like engineering, programming or a multitude of other occupations). It's all about consistency.

Nah, I realized it was an acronym, I was just following up my statement with my reasoning as to why I found the Aunt Sally method easier to remember.

But to the meat of my question, if PEMDAS is simply there as a common method to keep people from getting off track, does it REALLY matter what order you perform an operation in? To an extent, I'm sure, but is it possible to get better, more accurate, or faster results using alternate methods?

As long as you follow the grouping (parenthesis) (exponents) (multiplication and division) (addition and subtraction). Inside each grouping everything is equal in importance and should be done from left to right, but each group needs to be done in their individual placement. I am sure there is a better way to learn the O of O, PEMDAS is just how I learned it.

As a side note, to the people taking this personally and going at each other, can we keep it civil in here please?

 

[barbzilla]

Lately I have been noticing a disturbing trend on Facebook. People post simple math problems, and others will post the answer. The issue being that usually 60% or more of the people commenting get these problems wrong.

The order of Operations dictates what order you should follow when calculating a string of basic function math (I.E. 1+5*5-7/1*9). Many people on Facebook are doing the problem from left to right, and this is just not the correct way to do math. When you get a multiple function math problem you follow the Order of Operations to ensure you end up at an accurate number.

The Order of Operations is P.E.M.D.A.S.
Parenthesis
Exponents
Multiplication
Division
Addition
Subtraction

An easy way to remember the order is with the phrase Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally (I thought everyone was taught this in elementary school). By doing your math in this order you will ensure an accurate result, and we can all rest a bit easier knowing that our country will at least be able to balance their checkbooks.

To encourage discussion what is your highest level of Mathematical knowledge, and how do you use it in your job/hobby/every day life?

Poor people, those stupid math problems on facebook are deliberately poorly written. Real mathematicians like to make things looks neat and simple, they use parenthesis to divide the numbers and to make it easy to look at.

The facebook ones do the exact opposite. And math education these days being what it is, many do indeed not know the order of calculating properly =/

I'm studying to become a civil economist, so math is fairly important. First semester now, I'm studying national economics as the first course. I've never been good at math, but I'm starting to get the hang of it.

I've actually been seeing a lot of this style of response. I actually agree that these problems use poor syntax. The issue is that people should know the O of O for this very reason. Not every problem they receive in life will be wrapped up in a nice neat package. I know when I am in a hurry I often don't use proper syntax (personal problem as I am the only one that reads my equations).

So I guess it goes back to the simple problem of should a person be expected to be prepared for another person's mistakes?

 

[M920CAIN]

Wait, I thought you guys were talking about trigonometry, integrals, limits, polynoms... that makes my head hurt but I get it... uhm most of it. But the usual algebra and geometry? bring it on!

 

[barbzilla]

Wait, I thought you guys were talking about trigonometry, integrals, limits, polynoms... that makes my head hurt but I get it... uhm most of it. But the usual algebra and geometry? bring it on!

This is where I expected the average person to be. Most people don't use high level math in their daily lives, so no real reason to retain all of that knowledge. But basic math skills taught to you in elementary school and then used in the subsequent years should be retained just from the frequent usage (or so I thought).

 

[Yopaz]

It makes no difference what order multiplication and division come in your acronym. They have the same operational rank.

I think it's hilarious to see discussions between people who are REALLY FUCKING good in math discussing what comes first of those two. I guess they have never tried to see for themselves that there's no difference and just remembered the acronym.

 

[FoolKiller]

I have an engineering degree and I teach high school math and physics. Needless to say, I think it is really important.

The problem I find is that the school system doesn't seem to stress the importance of mathematics enough. Nor do they understand what it is. Mathematics is the language of science. And just like English, fluency requires lots of practice.

The other problem is the social implications of being weak/strong at math aren't the same as being weak/strong in English. Take the following two examples:

It's not considered a laughing matter when a member of society can't speak or read the language. Everyone would try to help this person if they could.

Now go to a restaurant and its a joke when someone can't split the bill and tip properly because they can't do the math. Some people even wear it as a badge of honour that they are weak at math.

Until that mentality changes, there will be problems with understanding basic math.

 

[BrassButtons]

Lately I have been noticing a disturbing trend on Facebook. People post simple math problems, and others will post the answer. The issue being that usually 60% or more of the people commenting get these problems wrong.

There's nothing disturbing about this. Those math questions on Facebook don't tell you anything reliable about how good people are at math; they just tell you how good people are at switching mental processes. Facebook deals primarily with reading and writing, and if you're browsing Facebook your brain is going to be in that mode. When you encounter a math problem that exists specifically to test understanding of the Order of Operations you have to switch mental gears from "read things left to right" to "look at the entire line and figure out which part to read first". Some people switch those gears easily while others don't. Those problems are specifically designed to trip up people who are in "Reading Sentences" mode rather than "Reading Math" mode.

 

[Tiger Sora]

The Order of Operations is P.E.M.D.A.S.

Parenthesis
Exponents
Multiplication
Division
Addition
Subtraction

I would also like to point out that Parenthesis is often known as Brackets to many. BEMDAS.

I'm not sure if parenthesis uses "*" like you did. Everything uses "()" for any math involving I did.

I.E.: 7(42 + 9)(50 - 21) - 2 =

And I'm not great at math at all. Can't do anything but the simple stuff in my head, and I'm slow at it. I'm a calculator guy.
I had to write a math equivalency test for college, I only had a basic grade 11 math and I needed grade 11 college or university grade. I just got the results in the mail a few days ago and I passed with a 53%. The test was 100 questions but I only needed to do 72/100. I did them all but I'm not sure if the other 28 questions counted towards the absolute total. 53% was what I got on the 72/100 questions. I passed and I can stay in so thats all I care about.

 

[Johnny Impact]

Well, division is multiplication by the reciprocal. I'm not entirely sure when the order of the two would matter that much. I'm pretty sure you can switch subtraction/addition around and it would still give you the same result.

Only real difference is subtraction and division are associative (2/3 is not 3/2, 10-2 is not 2-10), while multiplication and addition are commutative (2*3=3*2, 2+10=10+2).

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Powers (forgot what the word was but it's exponents)

Woulda been 'order', I think.

 

[MyNameIsNowNotMyName]

I'm a huge fan of mathematics, and I view that I'm quite good at it, last year I won a conference math-meet, and I made it to the final 3 in State. This was against people who had an extra year on me, I plan on winning this year. I want to become a computer hardware engineer, so math is quite important.

 

[Zantos]

Just finished a theoretical physics masters and starting on a biological physics PhD. So I use maths quite a lot. What I don't use however, is expressions like 1+1+1+1-1-1+1+1+1*1+1, because it's annoying to read when I could just have 6*1. Or 6. Because when I'm doing my partial derivatives of something by something with something constant to get something else then anything I can do to make it look nicer is appreciated.

Also, this reminded me of this

Spoiler: xkcd

 

[barbzilla]

I'm a huge fan of mathematics, and I view that I'm quite good at it, last year I won a conference math-meet, and I made it to the final 3 in State. This was against people who had an extra year on me, I plan on winning this year. I want to become a computer hardware engineer, so math is quite important.

Awesome, I hope you go all the way with it.

There seems to be a trend starting where people think I believe everyone needs to be able to do advanced mathematics. I really do not, I was mostly posting on the level of retention people have with something that was (likely) drilled into their heads for 8-12 years.

 

[Euryalus]

Don't give up! Even Einstein was pretty shit at the maths

Expect that's a myth, Einstein was very good at math. To quote him when he was shown an article making those claims: ?I never failed in mathematics, before I was fifteen I had mastered differential and integral calculus.?

Who's dumb enough to believe that, he was a physicist, maths is a large percentage of what he would be doing, he could not have been bad at it.

Sorry for being a moron then. Did I offend you