No, it hasn't. Just because something gets a below or around average season does not spell doom and gloom.
Poll: MLP Has Jumped the Shark
- Thread starter Drathnoxis
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Yes, it has. Discord becoming a good guy? Shark. Jumped.
Everyone says 'well Trixie reformed and she was a villain'. No. Okay, Trixie was a bully. A misunderstood bully who just wanted ATTENTION.
Now, Discord? Legit. Threat. He DEPOWERED the Mane six. COMPLETELY. The only reason they came back and beat him was because Celestia managed to pull a massive Batman Gambit. Had that not happened? Equestria=doomed. He should have remained stone and then be shattered into dust.
But no, we get, "You can reform Discord through friendship. Get to it." Just. WHY THE FUCK? They just demeaned my favorite villain.
I'd rather he come back, be evil, and get destroyed by Vinyl Scratch's BASS CANNON than be 'reformed'.
All this reforming shit does is teach bad life lessons. "Look, kids, he was a monster, but he's good now!" NO.
No. No. No.
If Lauren Faust was still involved, she would have put a stop to this BS I think.
Everyone says 'well Trixie reformed and she was a villain'. No. Okay, Trixie was a bully. A misunderstood bully who just wanted ATTENTION.
Now, Discord? Legit. Threat. He DEPOWERED the Mane six. COMPLETELY. The only reason they came back and beat him was because Celestia managed to pull a massive Batman Gambit. Had that not happened? Equestria=doomed. He should have remained stone and then be shattered into dust.
But no, we get, "You can reform Discord through friendship. Get to it." Just. WHY THE FUCK? They just demeaned my favorite villain.
I'd rather he come back, be evil, and get destroyed by Vinyl Scratch's BASS CANNON than be 'reformed'.
All this reforming shit does is teach bad life lessons. "Look, kids, he was a monster, but he's good now!" NO.
No. No. No.
If Lauren Faust was still involved, she would have put a stop to this BS I think.
3 has not been my favourite season...Keep Calm and Flutter On made me officially stop following show cannon, it was just that bullshit. And I'm not liking the massive amount of focus on the side characters. Or the plotholes. A lot of the shows this season have made me rant, yeah.
But it's a kid show, so you're not going to get the perfection of Buffy or Firefly.
That said, no. I don't think they've jumped the shark yet. I was expecting that with the Alicorn Twilight BS, but that seems to have disappeared off to the straight-to-dvd 66 minute movie thing so it should be reasonably ignorable.
But it's a kid show, so you're not going to get the perfection of Buffy or Firefly.
That said, no. I don't think they've jumped the shark yet. I was expecting that with the Alicorn Twilight BS, but that seems to have disappeared off to the straight-to-dvd 66 minute movie thing so it should be reasonably ignorable.
For those of you saying that episodes like Magic Duel and whatnot are pandering, are you aware of how long it takes to actually pitch an episode and when it gets to be written up and/or finished? Magic Duel at least was pitched on January 2011. Hell it was originally going to be a season 2 episode. The fanbase was very small back in Jan of 2011 too. I bet some of the other season 3 episodes were the same way. Dunno about Keep Calm and Flutter on though. But yeah, this fanbase does a lot of overanalysing for a show that is at it's core, a kids show and I too think the writers shouldn't allow themselves to get influenced by bronies any more than perhaps minor visual gags and such ( which isn't even their department really) . While season 3 has been of a lesser quality than the previous two overall it's far from the worst possible thing, that being the future season 4 being consistently the same quality or being of a lesser quality than S3 was. It's still good enough for my and many others enjoyment.
This is exactly how I feel about the show except for I don't believe season 1 is flawless, season 2 I thought was average but looking back on it now I feel that there are very few episodes that I would go back and rewatch and still enjoy. Season 3 though just plain sucks.Coldster said:
But that's the thing, I'm talking about the episode concept here, (sorry, should have specified better) that being that Trixie was going to make a return and not so much about the as then unwritten script. Trixie's return was one of the things that the fans wanted the most and they got it. Though not necessarily due to their own wishes but rather because it was planned all along.CriticKitten said:
You're more than welcome to your oppinion (YAY! INTERWEBZ!) but it just seems to me like you were looking for reasons to not like the show, and found little nit-picks to blow into massive problems.Drathnoxis said:
With Lesson Zero: Twilight has always been an obsessive freak about her studies. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, she refuses to believe that Celestia will always be happy with her performance. Given that she wouldn't have even been enrolled in the academy if it weren't for Dash's first ever Sonic Rainboom, Twilight feels like she always has to prove herself to the Princess. And since she had started up a tradition of sending a report back every week, she suddenly feels like she HAS to do that or Celestia will once again be disappointed in her. This wouldn't be the first time that Twilight has gone insane over something trivial, and that's the joke: she's such an egghead that it's easily within her character to go insane over trivial, insignificant matters.
With Baby Cakes: Changing diapers with your face is just wrong. HEAVILY implying that Ms. Cakes has been having an affair with both a pegasus AND a unicorn might have been a humorous little joke meant for the older members of the audience, but I still think it was a bit much for what's supposed to be a kids' show. In short: I agree with you that this was a bad episode.
With Friend in Deed: Pinkie didn't hatch a plot thinking "Alright Pinkie, this new donkey in town is the only person you haven't met and befriended. The best way to go about befriending him is to ABSOLUTELY RUIN HIS LIFE!!!" A more adult-worded version of this episodes moral would be "The Path to Hell is Paved With Good Intentions". Everything Pinkie tries is meant to be a happy, friendly gesture. It just so happens that everything she tries only makes things worse. Pinkie's only problem in this episode is that she's Pinkie, she can't stand to not be someone's friend, and that's why she keeps trying. She doesn't WANT to piss him off and get into a bigger mess, it's just that everything she tries blows up in her face. She finally gets her way at the end because she finally does something right: she reunites the donkey with his long-lost love, the very reason he became such a sad-sack was because he was separated from the female donkey. If reuniting someone with their long-lost love isn't worth that person declaring you a friend, then I don't know what is.
With Putting Your Hoof Down: That's what Fluttershy's day-to-day life is. You rarely ever see her away from her house (unless she's with the other mane six) and now we see why: she's such a pushover, HARDLY out of character for her. We just finally got to see how other random ponies react to easily being able to push her around because of her meek personality. There's numerous episodes in which her friends all try to get her to stand up for herself, this episode shows what happens when she finally decided to do just that.
With MMMystery on the Friendship Express: You say that half the mane six decide to just go along with whatever selfish desire pops into their heads. Well considering the fact that Pinkie couldn't stop raving about how amazing the cake was, I'd say the temptation factor was pretty high. They couldn't stop themelves, Pinkie made the cake sound positively orgasmic to taste. The lesson is about forgiving your friends when they do something wrong, and that out of disaster even better things can arise, such as the combination of all those treats to make the final presentation that wins first prize.
With The Royal Wedding: Your biggest complaint about this episode is simply that Twilight's brought shows up out of nowhere? Could it be that Twilight has never had a need to mention her brother? Yes, she loves him very much, but they're both adult ponies now, they both have their own separate lives and they're off doing their own thing. Do you (or anyone you know) talk about your (or their) siblings all the time? Especially when those siblings live in a different part of the country? She has fond memories of her childhood with her brother, yes, but beyond that they both have their own lives to live now. That's why Twilight is so upset at the beginning of the episode, she clearly hasn't even heard from her brother in a very long time and all of a sudden she finds out that he's getting married.
And finally, with Keep Calm and Flutter On: If Celestia proved correct in her belief that the mane six - specifically Fluttershy - could rehabilitate Discord, think of all the good that couuld come from a reality-shaping god using his powers for good rather than pure chaos. It was a gamble, to be sure, but there was always a fail-safe: the elements of harmony. If it proved to be a failed experiment, they could just seal him away once more. The episode is to show the unrivaled power of Friendship. And in the end it pays off. Discord - a being who has never had a true friend before - finally sees that while he thought he didn't even care about friends, actually losing someone that claimed to be his friend was something that he just couldn't take. Fluttershy had shown him nothing but kindness and he used her kindness against her, it was her open honesty about wanting to be his friend that chipped away at his heart and he just couldn't stand to lose the only friend - or pony that was trying to be his friend - that he had ever had. And so the story proves Discord's proclamation at the end and the show's title to be correct: Friendship Is Magic.
With Baby Cakes: Changing diapers with your face is just wrong. HEAVILY implying that Ms. Cakes has been having an affair with both a pegasus AND a unicorn might have been a humorous little joke meant for the older members of the audience, but I still think it was a bit much for what's supposed to be a kids' show. In short: I agree with you that this was a bad episode.
With Friend in Deed: Pinkie didn't hatch a plot thinking "Alright Pinkie, this new donkey in town is the only person you haven't met and befriended. The best way to go about befriending him is to ABSOLUTELY RUIN HIS LIFE!!!" A more adult-worded version of this episodes moral would be "The Path to Hell is Paved With Good Intentions". Everything Pinkie tries is meant to be a happy, friendly gesture. It just so happens that everything she tries only makes things worse. Pinkie's only problem in this episode is that she's Pinkie, she can't stand to not be someone's friend, and that's why she keeps trying. She doesn't WANT to piss him off and get into a bigger mess, it's just that everything she tries blows up in her face. She finally gets her way at the end because she finally does something right: she reunites the donkey with his long-lost love, the very reason he became such a sad-sack was because he was separated from the female donkey. If reuniting someone with their long-lost love isn't worth that person declaring you a friend, then I don't know what is.
With Putting Your Hoof Down: That's what Fluttershy's day-to-day life is. You rarely ever see her away from her house (unless she's with the other mane six) and now we see why: she's such a pushover, HARDLY out of character for her. We just finally got to see how other random ponies react to easily being able to push her around because of her meek personality. There's numerous episodes in which her friends all try to get her to stand up for herself, this episode shows what happens when she finally decided to do just that.
With MMMystery on the Friendship Express: You say that half the mane six decide to just go along with whatever selfish desire pops into their heads. Well considering the fact that Pinkie couldn't stop raving about how amazing the cake was, I'd say the temptation factor was pretty high. They couldn't stop themelves, Pinkie made the cake sound positively orgasmic to taste. The lesson is about forgiving your friends when they do something wrong, and that out of disaster even better things can arise, such as the combination of all those treats to make the final presentation that wins first prize.
With The Royal Wedding: Your biggest complaint about this episode is simply that Twilight's brought shows up out of nowhere? Could it be that Twilight has never had a need to mention her brother? Yes, she loves him very much, but they're both adult ponies now, they both have their own separate lives and they're off doing their own thing. Do you (or anyone you know) talk about your (or their) siblings all the time? Especially when those siblings live in a different part of the country? She has fond memories of her childhood with her brother, yes, but beyond that they both have their own lives to live now. That's why Twilight is so upset at the beginning of the episode, she clearly hasn't even heard from her brother in a very long time and all of a sudden she finds out that he's getting married.
And finally, with Keep Calm and Flutter On: If Celestia proved correct in her belief that the mane six - specifically Fluttershy - could rehabilitate Discord, think of all the good that couuld come from a reality-shaping god using his powers for good rather than pure chaos. It was a gamble, to be sure, but there was always a fail-safe: the elements of harmony. If it proved to be a failed experiment, they could just seal him away once more. The episode is to show the unrivaled power of Friendship. And in the end it pays off. Discord - a being who has never had a true friend before - finally sees that while he thought he didn't even care about friends, actually losing someone that claimed to be his friend was something that he just couldn't take. Fluttershy had shown him nothing but kindness and he used her kindness against her, it was her open honesty about wanting to be his friend that chipped away at his heart and he just couldn't stand to lose the only friend - or pony that was trying to be his friend - that he had ever had. And so the story proves Discord's proclamation at the end and the show's title to be correct: Friendship Is Magic.
But then again, like most popular things, we love to build them up to godly status only to tear them right back down. I'd imagine that MLP will suffer this same fate, but I don't think it's there quite yet.
*re-reads his post* Wow, and here I wouldn't even really call myself a "brony", just someone who enjoys the show.
Most of my issues with ACW comes from the last act of part 2. After Chrysalis's reveal, her IQ drops like an anvil and Celestia gets literally knocked out in one hit from a very anticlimactic beam battle. Some of the really stupid mistakes Chrysalis makes are as follows:mronoc said:
- Telling her entire plan to all of the ponies bar Luna that can stop her, including her biggest threat Celestia.
- After capturing the Mane 6, she doesn't restrain them like she does Celestia and Cadence, nor does she separate them. All of her enemies together in one room and within five meters from her, and she lets half of them roam free together.
- Neither she nor the other changelings bother to pay any attention to their prisoners, or at the very least none of them bothered to stop Twilight from freeing Cadence while she's openly talking about freeing her so she can go save Shining Armor.
- The classic example - Chrysalis laughs at and underestimates the power of love when it's the very source of her own power. You know, the very thing that supposedly let her beat Celestia. She then sits there and watches while Shining Armor and Cadence charge up their Love Nuke, instead of trying to stop it at all.
There's also numerous other plotholes in this part, like Luna's unexplained absence and - my personal favorite to ***** about - two half-dead ponies being able to one-shot the entire changeling army, including the queen, when a perfectly healthy Celestia got completely curbstomped by the queen alone. I think you got the idea though, so I'll quit rambling about part 2's climax for now.
As for part 1, it has some plotholes of it's own but does do a good job of establishing the new characters as much as possible in a 22-minute span and leaves us with a flat-out awesome double-twist ending that also gives some personality to Shining Armor. The songs in both episodes were really good as well; if a bit repetitive (This Day Aria), nonsensical (BBBFF), or pop-music like (Love's in Bloom). I still listen to two of them often, so that's a good sign. The background music by William Anderson is nothing short of phenominal (I even listen to that often; just listen to the music during Chrysalis's reveal XD). The humor in both episodes is severely lacking, but Twi's character arc is spot on and makes this very enjoyable to watch. Lastly, Chrysalis, before we even know who she actually is, is established as very intelligent and deceptive, managing to fool all of Canterlot without raising any suspicions; which is why her later mistakes irritate me so.
I'm going off on a tangent here, aren't I? Still, I don't hate ACW, but wow does it have some issues. I guess what really irritates me is how it had so much potential, but mucked that up so badly at the end. The two-parter is not bad, but it's so very far from being among the best of FiM when it very well could have been. It also gets far more credit than other episodes that I feel are underrated, such as Sisterhooves Social, which irritates me even further.
Is MLP past it's prime? In one man's opinion, not at all.
Now, I like season 1 as much as the next fan, but in all honesty, I feel that season 2 was even BETTER. The number of episodes I liked VS the number of episodes I didn't like was much higher in season 2 for me, and it also gave us the first CMC episode that I actually LIKED (Hearts and Hooves Day).
Season 3 has been a bit more of a mixed bag for me, kinda split evenly between episodes I liked, episodes I didn't like, and episodes I'm indifferent to. But that hardly means that the show is past it's prime.
The writing is still top-notch, the characters are still entertaining and enjoyable, and the animation is better than ever. Really, I thought that all this talk of "The show will suck without Lauren Faust" was over by this point. Of course she's important, but there are still plenty of very talented people who work on the show, and WANT to make it succeed.
Really, I feel like the TC is complaining about the details, while losing sight of the big picture.
Now, I like season 1 as much as the next fan, but in all honesty, I feel that season 2 was even BETTER. The number of episodes I liked VS the number of episodes I didn't like was much higher in season 2 for me, and it also gave us the first CMC episode that I actually LIKED (Hearts and Hooves Day).
Season 3 has been a bit more of a mixed bag for me, kinda split evenly between episodes I liked, episodes I didn't like, and episodes I'm indifferent to. But that hardly means that the show is past it's prime.
The writing is still top-notch, the characters are still entertaining and enjoyable, and the animation is better than ever. Really, I thought that all this talk of "The show will suck without Lauren Faust" was over by this point. Of course she's important, but there are still plenty of very talented people who work on the show, and WANT to make it succeed.
Really, I feel like the TC is complaining about the details, while losing sight of the big picture.
This statement is painfully wrong. Season 2 introduced neat characters like Discord and Iron Will while Season 3 brought back Trixie and, well, had more Discord. (You can never have too much Discord.) The show has been improving ever since the limitation of Friendship Letters has been almost removed in S2-E3. Sure, not every episode is amazing, but most of them have been a fun ride and this ride hasn't shown any signs of slowing down.Caramel Frappe said:
People are taking this awesome show too seriously.
I too felt that after the first season it went down a bit.
Some of that had to do with the change in staff, Hasbro getting involved with Derpy along with Bronies no longer making the amazing 'WOW' stuff they used to.
The opening and ending of the season was great though.
Season 3 had a good opening, but apart from that... I am not feeling it anymore.
I am not going denounce myself being a Brony, but I have noticed that the writing has gone downhill.
I hope that the show focus on good ideas and goes with that, me think one of the problems is that now the show is trying to appeal to a wide audience.
Some of that had to do with the change in staff, Hasbro getting involved with Derpy along with Bronies no longer making the amazing 'WOW' stuff they used to.
The opening and ending of the season was great though.
Season 3 had a good opening, but apart from that... I am not feeling it anymore.
I am not going denounce myself being a Brony, but I have noticed that the writing has gone downhill.
I hope that the show focus on good ideas and goes with that, me think one of the problems is that now the show is trying to appeal to a wide audience.
Very true, I found that Dexter and Breaking Bad both got really boring in Season 3, but MLP doesn't seem to have done that, so it may have been getting more off the wall and ridiculous, but I don't see that as a bad thing.Madmanonfire said:
I don't think I'm overanalyzing. I really can't see how you can interpret the moral of the story in any other way than "belief is better than the pursuit of knowledge".erttheking said:
Lauren Faust even agrees with me on this, the only objection she raised in her response is that belief and faith doesn't necessarily have to apply to religion.
The point is that Twilight spends the entire episode trying to use her rationality and critical thinking and in the end it turns out to be a waste of energy since there was no explanation and "you have to choose to believe". The story punishes Twilight (physically) everytime she tries to find the truth and and (arguably) vilifies her by making the moral of the story contradict her morals.
I do agree that I was overreacting, I don't care for MLP that much, but it frustrates me to see that so many adults are willing to praise a show like MLP without any critical thinking or criticism. It's not the end of the world, it's only a very questionable episode of a childrens cartoon.
klaynexas3 said:
Yeah, maybe I was too harsh in calling it religious propaganda, since it isn't openly referring to religion, but rather "faith" which you could argue isn't exclusive to religion. But I definitely think that the episode's moral is anti-critical thinking.Aeonknight said:
The reason for this is that Twilight is physically punished everytime she tries to research the situation using logic and reasoning. In a story with a clear moral to it, which all MLP episodes have, the person who isn't following the moral of the story is punished. This is to illustrate how the moral the story is teaching is correct. By punishing Twilight they are saying that she is wrong and Pinkie is right.
Yeah, I'd certainly never say it was great, just that kind of works in it's own way, a very broad, melodramatic, Disney-ish kind of way. I think the reason I tend to be lenient towards ACW, is that my expectations were thoroughly lowered by the fact that I found so many of the later season 2 episodes unbearably dull, specifically Dragon Quest, Hurricane Fluttershy, and MMMystery on the Friendship Express.V da Mighty Taco said:
PFFFFFFFFT HAHHAHAHAHAHAHA....
oh man, the freakouts people are having are hilarious.
Back in season 2 i was thinking that the show might lose some luster in season 3 since its completely without faust's input, but these past few weeks have just proven that the only thing losing ground are the absurdly critical fans.
Every single major complaint that I have heard of all the episodes this season are so arbitrary and dumb that I'm convinced that people are just trying to invent problems with the show.
Now BRB, gonna go rewatch some season 1 then maybe go outside and fly a kite and pretend its rainbow dash.
oh man, the freakouts people are having are hilarious.
Back in season 2 i was thinking that the show might lose some luster in season 3 since its completely without faust's input, but these past few weeks have just proven that the only thing losing ground are the absurdly critical fans.
Every single major complaint that I have heard of all the episodes this season are so arbitrary and dumb that I'm convinced that people are just trying to invent problems with the show.
Now BRB, gonna go rewatch some season 1 then maybe go outside and fly a kite and pretend its rainbow dash.
Admittedly I liked MMMystery and Dragon Quest, though I can see how the later was dull. Hurricane Fluttershy I couldn't agree with more - though the interactions between RD and Flutters were very enjoyable, the episode overall felt forced and lackluster. Season 2 in general felt like it was going in the wrong direction or that the team was getting burned out, with the greater emphasis on flanderization and an overall far less lighthearted tone. Season 3, to me anyways, is for the most part a massive improvement; though I still say that Season 1 was the best. It feels like the characters are much less flanderized this season and the comedy is generally more creative (Magic Duel and Crystal Empire aside, though I do give the two-parters some slack on the comedy department).mronoc said:
My main thing though is the lightheartedness of the show and keeping true to the characters; and while it's much more lighthearted than much of Season 2 (especially the later half of S2), it's still not quite as lighthearted as Season 1. Character wise, it's possibly the most spot on yet with again a couple notable exceptions - particularly "Magic Duel" in general, Spike in "Spike at Your Service", and Twi in "Crystal Empire". Seeing things like RD, Rarity, and Applejack talking to each other casually about AJ's predicament with Spike (and the little part about RD's fanfiction, with Rarity's lovely retort XD) or how Pinkie's back to her old school comedy (the mustache!) really has warmed me up to this season.
I tangented again, I think. Sorry about that, but this whole conversation is fun and is reminding me why I watch this show. Thanks for that.
Speaking as someone whose job revolves around subtext, I think the show has just begun to be ground breaking. It's dealing with more symbolism and artistry then ever before, and to be blunt, there was basically no major transition. Discord, then the changelings brought in A LOT of more adult subtext and symbolism. These things have become more frequent with some more heady concepts in Season 3: Double gangers that represent your worst traits (which happened twice, once literally with Pinkie and once metaphorical with Rainbow's dramatic foil, Lighting), Chaos becoming harmony, dreams revealing subconscious fear, etc.
This is juxtaposed to more...typical episodes like Apple Family Reunion or the one that just aired today. There's nothing wrong with them, they can be funny or charming and what not, but that IS quite the contrast. I'm sure that's throwing some people off. It's a show with some major variety, and it no longer consistently aims itself at a broad base. Scootaloo's dream episode to me is what all episodes should be, a balance of jokes and subtext and artistry that all audiences will get, with only some things that only adults will figure out.
The show is growing. Rapidly. REALLY rapidly. It's going to change, and I can see some growing pains, but I still like the direction it's going. Not sure what my favorite season would be honestly. I praise season 2 for a strong start AND finish though.
This is juxtaposed to more...typical episodes like Apple Family Reunion or the one that just aired today. There's nothing wrong with them, they can be funny or charming and what not, but that IS quite the contrast. I'm sure that's throwing some people off. It's a show with some major variety, and it no longer consistently aims itself at a broad base. Scootaloo's dream episode to me is what all episodes should be, a balance of jokes and subtext and artistry that all audiences will get, with only some things that only adults will figure out.
The show is growing. Rapidly. REALLY rapidly. It's going to change, and I can see some growing pains, but I still like the direction it's going. Not sure what my favorite season would be honestly. I praise season 2 for a strong start AND finish though.
Change of staff (especially higher up), safe marketing attempts, and short seasons often lead to plot holes and poor development. I wasn't enthused after watching season three, but I'm not surprised either. It's happened over and over and over again in so many shows, regardless of fanbase. If it picks back up, great! If not, then I'll still appreciate the show for the seasons I've enjoyed