Poll: Should feminists be involved with anime mediums?

[raikagetaicho]

Of cource no, they are at best an annoyance and in the worst a time bomb(dont forget rapelay).
and if you bring out hayao miyazaki:

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/07/13/miyazaki-ipad-users-nothing-but-chronic-masturbators/

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/131872-Hayao-Miyazaki-Anime-Suffers-Because-the-Industry-is-Full-of-Otaku

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/02/10/miyazaki-stone-age-skills-more-important-than-literacy/

He doesn't like tecnology and his relation with the anime industry is problematic at best.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

I think they should be focusing on the middle-east and doing something, y'know, useful; instead of profiting off making a fuss over first world problems (half of which are made up). Granted, I might just be hearing about the deeds of the morons closer to microphones (buzzfeed, gawker, huffpo, etc.). I wonder if there's a publication that focuses on feminism in the middle east (the places that actually need it).

However, are you in the right for flinging shit at a shit flinger? No. Bad move mate. You don't counter incivility with incivility.

]I've liked some ecchi anime before. One of my favorite anime series is the Monogatari series, which can get very fanservice-heavy at times. I just don't care. If an anime has fanservice, I'll just shrug and go along with it. At this point I'm desensitized to it and just accept it as a part of the medium. I know not everyone is like that, but I don't concern myself with what others think.

"Heavy" is an understatement hahaha.

 

[Queen Michael]

Of cource no, they are at best an annoyance and in the worst a time bomb(dont forget rapelay).
and if you bring out hayao miyazaki:

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/07/13/miyazaki-ipad-users-nothing-but-chronic-masturbators/

This is offensive! I do not own an iPad!

 

[Soviet Heavy]

.....It's like the anime equivalent of EternalNothingness.

Personally, I think that feminists should be involved with whatever they think they need to be involved with. I don't say this as a feminist myself, but as someone who sees it as a basic human right to hold an opinion. If that involves anime, so be it. It's an industry that could seriously use a few kicks nowadays.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

.....It's like the anime equivalent of EternalNothingness.

Personally, I think that feminists should be involved with whatever they think they need to be involved with. I don't say this as a feminist myself, but as someone who sees it as a basic human right to hold an opinion. If that involves anime, so be it. It's an industry that could seriously use a few kicks nowadays.

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything here, I'm just curious. When you say this, do you mean "a person who just happens to be a feminist can have an opinion on something outside of feminism", or do you mean something along the lines of "the feminist movement should get into whatever they want"?

 

[Queen Michael]

.....It's like the anime equivalent of EternalNothingness.

Personally, I think that feminists should be involved with whatever they think they need to be involved with. I don't say this as a feminist myself, but as someone who sees it as a basic human right to hold an opinion. If that involves anime, so be it. It's an industry that could seriously use a few kicks nowadays.

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything here, I'm just curious. When you say this, do you mean "a person who just happens to be a feminist can have an opinion on something outside of feminism", or do you mean something along the lines of "the feminist movement should get into whatever they want"?

Sorry to butt in, but how do you mean when you say "get into"?

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

.....It's like the anime equivalent of EternalNothingness.

Personally, I think that feminists should be involved with whatever they think they need to be involved with. I don't say this as a feminist myself, but as someone who sees it as a basic human right to hold an opinion. If that involves anime, so be it. It's an industry that could seriously use a few kicks nowadays.

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything here, I'm just curious. When you say this, do you mean "a person who just happens to be a feminist can have an opinion on something outside of feminism", or do you mean something along the lines of "the feminist movement should get into whatever they want"?

Sorry to butt in, but how do you mean when you say "get into"?

I'm thinking as in the movement getting socially and/or politically involved.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Oh boy, where to start

Yes, I absolutely believe that Feminism should be involved in anime. There are various aspects of Japanese culture represented in anime that should not be hand-waved with an excuse of cultural difference.

While Japan does have far more liberal views on sex and the traditional dichotomy in households is that the women reins supreme, other aspects are problematic. Women don't have as many chances for work as men not just because of the inherent dichotomy of men being workers but because of a lack of cheap child care facilities which force women to make a choice of work or children and rather poor career support. In addition, the attitudes towards rape and sexual violence are horrific with many ignoring it or even accusing the victim and many incidents not being reported due to societal pressures against public court cases or reliance on external forces to resolve issues. The country has a severe problem with human trafficking being a teir 2 country and having no support for victims. (source [http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/japan])

As it applies to anime, this results in some rather blurry character types and poor narratives. Yamato Nadeshiko [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YamatoNadeshiko] in particular is default as it's supposed to be a humble mature wife but one who can still exert an edge should something happen. This is a difficult trope to do right and even anime can make those that are too docile and meek to qualify and end up being doormats. In addition, the self-insert fantasy and wank fantasy anime portray women with an extreme lack of independent agency and just seem to revolve around a male character. This focus on pure gratification really doesn't improve our narratives and makes the medium more juvenile (along with the "grim and gritty" shows but that's another day). Rape is also an issue and while Japan is more liberal in portraying sex and having it seen as a natural part of life, a lot of rape in anime can be shown to be framed as a way for people to get off rather than emphasize with the victim. It also is used as a lazy way to up the stakes and ties into "grim and gritty" again.

as for your conduct, OP, do not insult people for presenting ideas or opinions counter to yours, it makes our medium's growth grind to a halt.

 

[raikagetaicho]

.....It's like the anime equivalent of EternalNothingness.

Personally, I think that feminists should be involved with whatever they think they need to be involved with. I don't say this as a feminist myself, but as someone who sees it as a basic human right to hold an opinion. If that involves anime, so be it. It's an industry that could seriously use a few kicks nowadays.

The last thing anime/manga need is a group that tried to limited creative freedom.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

There's something particularly ironic about calling Fate sexist, when the story pretty much beats you over the head saying "don't be sexist and stupid like this guy".

Whenever I want to insult someone on the internet, I just ignore the person instead and that seems to work pretty well, so I'd say you were in the wrong on that front.

There's nothing wrong with feminists (or anyone for that matter) being involved with any medium, if you don't like the way things are done, do it the way you think is right, and if your way really is better it will succeed. It's when they start trying to decide for other people what sort of media they should or should not consume, whether through actual censorship, through coercive boycotts (not sure if there's a word for it but when someone goes "don't sell X or I'll gather a group of people and we won't go to your store" as opposed to simply not buying whatever it is you don't like), or even through pushing their morality onto people that I think they cross a line.

I agree with the latter part about having feminism in anime but you do have to admit that Fate doesn't really help it's own case when it's narrative has Shirou say some of the most baffling and stupid things ever. yes, having a narrative that talks against a sexist character is fine but Nasu's dialogue is not that great in the VN and there are other questionable things (Saber's treatment under Caster in UBW, Sakura's backstory and the side effect of having increased lust due to the worms, the design of the worms) that could be aimed at it.

Honestly though, I don't want that debate because I love Fate/Zero and the new Fate/stay night and I am too tired to get into that discussion.

 

[Risingblade]

Only Japanese feminists who actually give a shit about anime should be involved in it.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

@Queen Michael

I see all feminists as extremists. Given the way they act, it's hard not to come to such a conclusion and view them with the highest disdain. Don't forget there's a topic describing how they've extended their antics to children's toys, or how Grand Theft Auto V is getting boycotted.

For the love of god

What you are refering to is the most fanatical 0.1% of all feminists in the world. Most feminists qualify as humanists and would see the advancement of human rights and improvement for all genders. This is like watching Transformers: Revenged of the Fallen and assuming that all movies are like that: it's narrow minded and unacademic.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

@Queen Michael

I see all feminists as extremists. Given the way they act, it's hard not to come to such a conclusion and view them with the highest disdain. Don't forget there's a topic describing how they've extended their antics to children's toys, or how Grand Theft Auto V is getting boycotted.

For the love of god

What you are refering to is the most fanatical 0.1% of all feminists in the world. Most feminists qualify as humanists and would see the advancement of human rights and improvement for all genders. This is like watching Transformers: Revenged of the Fallen and assuming that all movies are like that: it's narrow minded and unacademic.

Again, not trying to start a fight.
Could you refer me to a publication where these reasonable feminists are? Maybe I've just been stumbling upon the crazy arse "false rape accusations aren't bad", "male tears", "patriarchy", "male gaze", sites one after another. I used to call myself a feminist until these nutty things started popping up en masse in media. So if you can recommend a reasonable publication, that'd be nice.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

I really think it's just the fact that I am Asian, and have always been with animated media, and you're just a Westerner, who's likely only known Marvel or DC. I don't find it strange if you can't get into anime, but don't claim things that aren't true like everything being pandering.

"Who's likely only known Marvel or DC?" First of all, why no Image comics? You think I'm the only one not to love Saga and The Walking Dead?

Spoiler: Secondly, check this out.

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2426_zps921d393e.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2427_zps2c0eba96.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2428_zps5fd6b801.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2429_zps4f6e45d5.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2430_zpsfa082c9f.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2432_zps7b2d5e6a.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2431_zpsd5bb38eb.jpg.html]

Those were a few pics of my collection. Now do you believe me?

Yes I do. I just don't get why you would hate anime then, since it's a medium strongly tied to manga.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

]I forgot. What was this thread suppose to be about again?

OT: Whatever. Let people enjoy what they like. If there are some feminists that like anime or want to get into anime, I say go right ahead. They're not hurting me. I don't feel like I have a say as to who can watch anime or not.

As for the medium itself and whether it's sexist or not, I'm just looking to be entertained. I've liked some ecchi anime before. One of my favorite anime series is the Monogatari series, which can get very fanservice-heavy at times. I just don't care. If an anime has fanservice, I'll just shrug and go along with it. At this point I'm desensitized to it and just accept it as a part of the medium. I know not everyone is like that, but I don't concern myself with what others think.

To be fair, entertainment and quality are not mutually exclusive and while people may think of me as an asexual nutjob, I do in fact think that some characters are cute or that some look hot. The issue for me with anime is that so much of it is based on what I call substances-less sexiness or substance-less cuteness. If I was to take a character from something like Infinite Stratos, the characters would have a very well designed exterior that would make men like them but to me, they are hollow with no real personality or growth.

Compare that to say, Rin Tohsaka (yes, I'm on a Fate/stay night train, just go with it), she has internal conflict and growth rooted in both events in Fate/Zero and her relations to both Sakura and Archer in all the routes. She also has a well defined personality with some nuance.

To make a long point short, fanservice in and off itself is not the issue, the issue is if it only has fanservice.

 

[Queen Michael]

I really think it's just the fact that I am Asian, and have always been with animated media, and you're just a Westerner, who's likely only known Marvel or DC. I don't find it strange if you can't get into anime, but don't claim things that aren't true like everything being pandering.

"Who's likely only known Marvel or DC?" First of all, why no Image comics? You think I'm the only one not to love Saga and The Walking Dead?

Spoiler: Secondly, check this out.

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2426_zps921d393e.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2427_zps2c0eba96.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2428_zps5fd6b801.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2429_zps4f6e45d5.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2430_zpsfa082c9f.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2432_zps7b2d5e6a.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2431_zpsd5bb38eb.jpg.html]

Those were a few pics of my collection. Now do you believe me?

Yes I do. I just don't get why you would hate anime then, since it's a medium strongly tied to manga.

I don't hate anime. Anime's great. Granted, I've only watched a few series, thirty at most (and I'm not claiming to have finished them all either), but I like what I've seen.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

I really think it's just the fact that I am Asian, and have always been with animated media, and you're just a Westerner, who's likely only known Marvel or DC. I don't find it strange if you can't get into anime, but don't claim things that aren't true like everything being pandering.

"Who's likely only known Marvel or DC?" First of all, why no Image comics? You think I'm the only one not to love Saga and The Walking Dead?

Spoiler: Secondly, check this out.

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2426_zps921d393e.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2427_zps2c0eba96.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2428_zps5fd6b801.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2429_zps4f6e45d5.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2430_zpsfa082c9f.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2432_zps7b2d5e6a.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2431_zpsd5bb38eb.jpg.html]

Those were a few pics of my collection. Now do you believe me?

Yes I do. I just don't get why you would hate anime then, since it's a medium strongly tied to manga.

I don't hate anime. Anime's great. Granted, I've only watched a few series, thirty at most (and I'm not claiming to have finished them all either), but I like what I've seen.

Didn't you just go on a rant of how misogynistic, sexist, and or childish the medium is not too long ago? I may have forgotten.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

@Queen Michael

I see all feminists as extremists. Given the way they act, it's hard not to come to such a conclusion and view them with the highest disdain. Don't forget there's a topic describing how they've extended their antics to children's toys, or how Grand Theft Auto V is getting boycotted.

For the love of god

What you are refering to is the most fanatical 0.1% of all feminists in the world. Most feminists qualify as humanists and would see the advancement of human rights and improvement for all genders. This is like watching Transformers: Revenged of the Fallen and assuming that all movies are like that: it's narrow minded and unacademic.

Again, not trying to start a fight.
Could you refer me to a publication where these reasonable feminists are? Maybe I've just been stumbling upon the crazy arse "false rape accusations aren't bad", "male tears", "patriarchy", "male gaze", sites one after another. I used to call myself a feminist until these nutty things started popping up en masse in media. So if you can recommend a reasonable publication, that'd be nice.

Believe me, I dislike those insane idiots as much as any reasonable person but there are still reasonable people out there (not sure if this fits but give it a shot:http://www.feministpress.org/)

Also, I suggest avoiding the media and asking people in real life. Face to face contact implicitly imparts social rules that are not enforced on the net so most people hold their tongues better.

 

[Queen Michael]

Didn't you just go on a rant of how misogynistic, sexist, and or childish the medium is not too long ago? I may have forgotten.

Nnnnope. That was not what I was saying. At all.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I really think it's just the fact that I am Asian, and have always been with animated media, and you're just a Westerner, who's likely only known Marvel or DC. I don't find it strange if you can't get into anime, but don't claim things that aren't true like everything being pandering.

"Who's likely only known Marvel or DC?" First of all, why no Image comics? You think I'm the only one not to love Saga and The Walking Dead?

Spoiler: Secondly, check this out.

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2426_zps921d393e.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2427_zps2c0eba96.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2428_zps5fd6b801.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2429_zps4f6e45d5.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2430_zpsfa082c9f.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2432_zps7b2d5e6a.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2431_zpsd5bb38eb.jpg.html]

Those were a few pics of my collection. Now do you believe me?

Yes I do. I just don't get why you would hate anime then, since it's a medium strongly tied to manga.

I don't hate anime. Anime's great. Granted, I've only watched a few series, thirty at most (and I'm not claiming to have finished them all either), but I like what I've seen.

Didn't you just go on a rant of how misogynistic, sexist, and or childish the medium is not too long ago? I may have forgotten.

Have you ever heard of "I hate it because I love it"

In this case, I hate the pandering, idiotic elements of anime that seek only to satisfy the minds of nihilistic teenagers but love anime for it's potential to tell stories and themes in a way that live action can't

Pointing out flaws within a medium does not make you a hater; if so, then Ebert would have been the most well known hater of movies ever and I remind you that he helped in several productions and even made a movie (admittedly, it's a bit of an oddball).

Edit: Thinking back, I'm not even sure that Queen said all those things and even if he did, I would probably back him up on certain examples.