Poll: Skyrim: The Armour complaint.

[Exosus]

Here's my timeline of what occurred at Bethesda:

People talked about how awesome it was to be able to completely customize your armor and weaponry in Morrowind. Morons talked about how putting things on was le hard.

In Oblivion, they bowed to the fucktard demographic and took out an entire class of armor, several classes of weapons, and combined L+R to make one thing. People complained about how they took away one of the best aspects of Morrowind, calling Oblivion everything from an insult to the ES series to Morrowind Lite. Morons ate paste.

Then, they took on board all the complaints about excess simplicity and lack of customization in Oblivion, and decided the solution to that would be to keep all the things that made Oblivion shit, and remove some of the customization to make up for it. They did this for Skyrim, and those of us who loved ES from the beginning bought it anyway because we hate ourselves. Morons complained about how you were always having to click things.



Next, people complained about how Skyrim was Morrowind Lite cut 50/50 with watery jism, and taking that on board Bethesda took armor out of ESVI (setting it in Elseweyr and claiming it was because the Kajiit haven't invented armor) and made it an idle game that played itself. Those of us who loved ES from the beginning realized that they were just fucking with us, and quit buying it. Morons bought it as hard as they could, and Bethesda profit margins increased 5000% because the moron demographic is by far the biggest lobby in gaming.

The world of gaming sputtered and died, breathing its last under an uncaring sky made up entirely of boredom and failure. Profits rose 8%.

 

[Hertzila]

I think it's because of the enormous, but IMO somewhat justifiable, fear of simplification. The general opinion (AFAIK) is that 'more is better' and the more options there are the more depth the game can have and hence, the better the game can be. So when an option is axed, some people will not really look it in reference to everything else and see if it was a big or small thing, but instead react to it as if the dev team just admitted that they'll dumb the game down silly. It is an overreaction but there's no real way around this.
(See the "Easy Games" Extra Credits episode for a better explanation of depth.)

In this case it's an overreaction IMO. Granted, at it's worst, it could make armor nigh-useless but somehow I doubt Bethesda would fail that badly. Still, I do kind of wonder why they decided to axe seperate armor pieces in favor of, say, better tech.
I'll wait for the reviews.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

What does this have to do with pants?

What do you mean? Are you quoting me just for a chance to use that bad joke? It's pretty clear what my comment has to do with this thread.

Its less customization. Oblivion decreased the armor slots from 11 to 6 (I think it was 11), and now it is down to 5. Skills and stats are being constantly mutilated and stripped. There's a huge difference "action game with RPG elements" and "action RPG"... Bethesda is intent on pushing that difference as far as they can. I sincerely doubt they give a shit about making their game an RPG anymore. They just want to make a shallow and pointless action game under the pretense of an RPG to sell to the masses. Fucking sell-outs.

Five seperate pieces of armor could actually be considered an improvement, seeing as Fallout 3 had a grand total of three armor slots (counting glasses as a type of armor). As long as I can have asymmetrical arms, I'm happy.

Morrowind was the last TES game that let you have asymmetrical arms, IIRC (talking about vanilla versions of the game, of course).

You trollin'?

Anyway, good. That means that I don't have to spend my time searching around for individual pieces.

It seems to be this way. Bethesda is cutting out most of the BS in most of the ES games and now people are whining about it.

 

[Hal10k]

Five seperate pieces of armor could actually be considered an improvement, seeing as Fallout 3 had a grand total of three armor slots (counting glasses as a type of armor). As long as I can have asymmetrical arms, I'm happy.

Morrowind was the last TES game that let you have asymmetrical arms, IIRC (talking about vanilla versions of the game, of course).

Oh yeah. I guess that if you use a mod enough, you forget what the game is like without it.

Anyway, I like what I've seen so far with Skyrim. Stats are improved (Branching paths in skills, meaning you can specialize in what you like without having to decide as much up front), there seems to be a greater emphasis on world building and atmosphere, and combat seems to be more than just a means to the end of buffing your stats.

 

[Naeo]

Well I'm still annoyed that Oblivion had no spears or halberds and that I couldn't wear my robes over my other things, but meh, I adjusted. I figure I'll adjust to this, too, once I get the game. It'll be weird and annoying and what have you, but I can bet you that one of the first mods will revert it back to how it was in previous games. And most armor mods will probably use that as a base.

Though, some degree of this I agree with. Like in Morrowind, you had a left glove and a right glove. But "boots" instead of left boot/right boot. So it made it easier to assemble full sets of armor when you just had "gloves"/"gauntlets". It also made it less infuriating. But removing legs versus torso armor distinction just seems...weird. I'm not angry, it just seems like a really, really strange thing to do.

 

[Exosus]

Also, I'm henceforth referring to this as the 'armor onesie' system. Fair warning.

 

[Slowpool]

Morrowind was not an RPG either, at least not by your standards.

I'm sorry.

Where did I define an RPG in my post? How did you manage to extrapolate that from my post at all? All I said was that Skyrim was removing more and more What does Morrowind have to do with my post at all? It was only tangentially mentioned. Morrowind had about as many skills as Daggerfall is you don't count the skills that are checks against various races being hostile or not (since that was a big reason Daggerfall had so many skills). It has about as many, if not more armor slots than most RPGs since you can have right/left arm armor, as well as being able to wear shirts and pants (if you count that, then Morrowind has upwards to 13 armor slots). Are you trolling, or just this stupid? I'm sorry to be blunt like that, but I honestly fail to see what that has to do with my post, other than trying to work me up and get a reply since you probably were able to assume that I am in the Morrowind camp.

The subtraction is such a minor difference that only min/maxers would get angry over the issue. Anything that pisses them off makes me even happier.

Well, I am glad that you get such shallow and pointless enjoyment out of other people's anger. Honestly... why would you get joy out of something that bothers someone else? That's just sad at the end of the day.

The ways I see it, the aesthetics are more important to the developers than the extra armor slot. Sucks if you don't like it, but that's your opinion, and it's probably not going to change anything. I for one could not care less, and am still eagerly anticipating the game.

Did you just say aesthetics are more important than customization in an RPG? Pardon my brevity, but how long have you been playing RPGs? I'd much rather have horrible looking armor with tons of customization and depth any day. I'll take Morrowind's 11 armor slots with horrid looking armor over Skyrim's 5 any day. RPGs aren't about looking good-- it's about building your character, and customizing them to the letter. From what I have seen, Bethesda is intent on restricting your scope of customization as far as they can do still remain in the realm of an RPG... maybe they'll even strip it so far such that Skyrim is just an action game.

This is what I was talking about-- they just want to make action games for people like you. People who really aren't into RPGs. I'm glad you acknowledge that I am reserved to hold my own opinion however.

HAH. This made me laugh a little.

I am incredibly into RPGs; it's just that I understand that RPGs are about ROLE PLAYING, and not STATISTICAL CUSTOMIZATION. If this removal of ONE armor slot is really important to you, then you do not love RPGs, you love mathematics. It's about putting you into the shoes of your character; when your character is aware of the numerical attack value of their sword or the chameleon value of their pants, it's a disconnect. I'm not saying that you should totally ignore stats, but its secondary to enjoying the experience of chasing down a pickpocket in a crowded market and braining him with your orcish hammer of braining.

TL;DR? Roleplaying is more important in an RPG than stats. It's right there in the title.

 

[Stall]

Five seperate pieces of armor could actually be considered an improvement, seeing as Fallout 3 had a grand total of three armor slots (counting glasses as a type of armor). As long as I can have asymmetrical arms, I'm happy.

Morrowind was the last TES game that let you have asymmetrical arms, IIRC (talking about vanilla versions of the game, of course).

Oh yeah. I guess that if you use a mod enough, you forget what the game is like without it.

Anyway, I like what I've seen so far with Skyrim. Stats are improved (Branching paths in skills, meaning you can specialize in what you like without having to decide as much up front), there seems to be a greater emphasis on world building and atmosphere, and combat seems to be more than just a means to the end of buffing your stats.

Yeah, I know that feeling. It's kind of hard to remember anything about vanilla Oblivion since modding is so heavily ingrained in that game.

And I am not sure how to feel about the stats and such in Skyrim. I personally really enjoy having to sit down and plan out of my character. It adds a lot of depth for me, and really makes me think about how to progress and move forward. The butchery of all the stats sort of hurt, but there may be hope for perks (though that seems much more action game than RPG to me). I guess we'll see, but at this rate, I am really worried about how Skyrim is shaping up. If the whole stripping down and simplifying continues, then I might have to put it on my "wait until the GOTY edition is 5 dollars on Steam" list.

 

[Jessta]

as I'm sure has been and will be said a million times, its all about customization, which is one of the biggest parts of the elder scrolls game. This is a game where they start you off with no personality, no previous background, no anything really, you are a blank slate character who just popped onto earth one day. This means that generally speaking people will want to dress and build their character to their specifications as much as possible to make them into the person they want them to be.
For example one of my personal preferences in oblivion was to wear a heavy curious and gauntlets, no helmet, and linen pants, because I thought the linen pants looked cool, this brought on a little more customization and personality, it was the little thing that made him more 'me'.
Of course you could counter argue that some players will be all like ooooh this piece gives me 3 more armor so I have to wear it and wearing it me look stuuuupid, and that's why they decided to do this... Although I only really found that a real problem in games where your power is heavily reliant on gear and fucking up is not an option like World of warcraft, honestly those afore mentioned pants didn't really drop me any armor at all since I just enchanted them with shield 15%, and heck even without that I already had max armor...

As for the idea of people complaining about this simply because it is a change, that is REALLY thoughtless comment seeing as how just about everyone who is complaining is giving a pretty darn good reason for their complaints. That would be like me stealing all your shit and then saying your just complaining because 'I'm better than you'. If they were complaining about everything that is a change then chances are they would just play more oblivion and not care about skyrim in the first place...

 

[LegionDre]

All that matters to me is if my character can have a killer long and hoboish beard. I am a fan of the nordic/viking styles of armour so what ever lets you have more people on screen to fight I am down for. Mount and Blade had some pretty terrible graphics for this generation but having a full 1000 soldiers on screen at once was pretty damn impressive... and fun... and frantic... and awesome... all in a nice ball of amazing I call Flufferspiggles.

As long as the armour is a tad on the low fantasy side I will be fine for appearances and customization. For those that are truly upset by this, Sorry can't win them all... but the game will be amazing.

 

[evilneko]

-snip-
I just don't understand...:<

You just don't have the right mindset. You're looking at it from the perspective of someone who plays the game as it is, just for fun, without really thinking about all the options that could be explored or the world in which it takes place or even the possibilities mods offer. You may even be thinking of it from a munchkin's point of view, not even caring about story elements but just the next level up. Heck, you might even be a console player. I'd bet 90-100% of the people complaining are PC players upset at the loss of slots because it restricts a modder's options.

To see how much PC players (like myself!) love these things, one need only look at the massive popularity of Tailor Maid for Fallout 3 and New Vegas. While it couldn't actually add slots, it did make use of left-over slots from Oblivion to tremendously expand customization possibilities.

There are also a lot of people who really don't care about the look the devs are trying to get, and want to mix and match denim shorts and a bikini top or a vest with a pleated schoolgirl skirt.

Then there's the modders who may want to release "just bottom" and "just top" pieces and not do an entire set of clothing...

Yeah, there's plenty of reason to be annoyed.

 

[Slowpool]

All that matters to me is if my character can have a killer long and hoboish beard. I am a fan of the nordic/viking styles of armour so what ever lets you have more people on screen to fight I am down for. Mount and Blade had some pretty terrible graphics for this generation but having a full 1000 soldiers on screen at once was pretty damn impressive... and fun... and frantic... and awesome... all in a nice ball of amazing I call Flufferspiggles.

As long as the armour is a tad on the low fantasy side I will be fine for appearances and customization. For those that are truly upset by this, Sorry can't win them all... but the game will be amazing.

This. I salute you sir.

 

[Inithra]

I don't particularly mind about the armour, but I worry that this is just the tip of the iceberg in modifications that severely reduce the complexity of the game. I realise that a company pretty much exists to make money, but Bethesda were always able to manage that before without massively comprimising the games they made.
Now we see dual wielding, crafting (I really fucking hope it's not like in Fable 2, but in the E3 videos with Todd Howard that is EXACTLY what came to mind), companions, relationships. Ugh. Next they will go full on multiplayer, then Team Deathmatch, then they will add Prestige...)

Sorry, that second paragraph got away from me and all I could think about was things in other games that I absolutely despise and would make me physically ill to see in a TES game. I've been up for 20 hours and am slightly sleep deprived.

 

[Stall]

HAH. This made me laugh a little.

I am incredibly into RPGs; it's just that I understand that RPGs are about ROLE PLAYING, and not STATISTICAL CUSTOMIZATION. If this removal of ONE armor slot is really important to you, then you do not love RPGs, you love mathematics. It's about putting you into the shoes of your character; when your character is aware of the numerical attack value of their sword or the chameleon value of their pants, it's a disconnect. I'm not saying that you should totally ignore stats, but its secondary to enjoying the experience of chasing down a pickpocket in a crowded market and braining him with your orcish hammer of braining.

TL;DR? Roleplaying is more important in an RPG than stats. It's right there in the title.

Well, I am going to be applying to Masters/PhD programs in Statistics this fall, so I suppose that accusation isn't baseless heh.

Anyways, I've always seen the stats part just as being synonymous with the roleplaying part. Being able to fine tune my character's stats and have more and more control over their armor and such lets me roleplay better. If I don't have enough control, then it ends up feeling like I am just controlling the character, instead of actually roleplaying. Anything that gets taken away just gives me less and less control, and that statistical control is imperative to my roleplaying.

I suppose it ends up being two different ways to view the same thing perhaps. Maybe I'm wrong and you're totally right. Who knows? All I can be sure about is that I think the deep customization (including the statistical part) is really needed to roleplay.

 

[Beertaster]

The only REAL problem I see about this is when it comes to modding. Bethesda has been very welcoming to a modding community with their games. As such I feel this is limiting what modders would like to do with armor. But as far as game play is concerned, no this isn't bad at all.

However I like to play my Bethesda games on the computer so I can download 50 mods and have a whole new play experience. So I would wish for Bethesda to simply keep two upper and lower separate and have all their armors cover both spots at once.

 

[Legendairy314]

Had even less options in Fallout 3 and I was fine with it. I don't see it being even less of an RPG because of it. In fact, Fallout 1 and 2 had even LESS customization than 3 and people still consider them great RPGs. As such I don't think less pieces of armor make the game any worse or less RPGish. I don't think the gameplay implications will be severe enough to make an impact either.

 

[Jfswift]

I have to admit I do like to play around with how I look in RPGS. It's part of the game.. of the feeling of immersion, that this is your character, that *you* are in this scary, yet fantastic world of demons and monsters. And your armor is pink.. because you can paint it pink. To be serious for a moment though, I really did like the setup in say.. Soul Caliber for the custom character creation part. That was fun.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

-snip-
I just don't understand...:<

You just don't have the right mindset. You're looking at it from the perspective of someone who plays the game as it is, just for fun, without really thinking about all the options that could be explored or the world in which it takes place or even the possibilities mods offer. You may even be thinking of it from a munchkin's point of view, not even caring about story elements but just the next level up. Heck, you might even be a console player. I'd bet 90-100% of the people complaining are PC players upset at the loss of slots because it restricts a modder's options.

To see how much PC players (like myself!) love these things, one need only look at the massive popularity of Tailor Maid for Fallout 3 and New Vegas. While it couldn't actually add slots, it did make use of left-over slots from Oblivion to tremendously expand customization possibilities.

There are also a lot of people who really don't care about the look the devs are trying to get, and want to mix and match denim shorts and a bikini top or a vest with a pleated schoolgirl skirt.

Then there's the modders who may want to release "just bottom" and "just top" pieces and not do an entire set of clothing...

Yeah, there's plenty of reason to be annoyed.

Actually I'm a PC gamer (I have played on all types of systems since 1985) who is getting a new rig (probably especially for Skyrim but don't tell anyone lol.)

Playing through Oblivion my armour was never a big issue. Most of the time I just wore the Dark Brotherhood stuff. I think I changed my armour drastically about 3 times in the entire game.

I just don't thinking this change effects actual game play enough to be scarmongering about streamlining and suchlike.

The modding thing I can kind of understand but I think they will figure out a way around it.

(cringes at schoolgirl outfit description)

I don't really apprieciate that you assume I am superficial about my gaming just becuase I can't see how a minor cosmetic issue will ruin the game.

The Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale series are some of my favourite games. I played Morrowind when it was released.

I hate assumption...

 

[Stall]

Because it's a simple enough assumption to make. RPG stands for Role Playing Game. In Skyrim, you will be able to play a role to a far greater degree than in previous Elder Scrolls games, judging from all the given information. You implied that Skyrim would be less of an RPG due to the lack of armour slots, implying that your view of an RPG is pretty much a DnD clone. As in skills/data/armour slots make a game an RPG. Which is not the case.

Ability to role-play makes an RPG an RPG. This is why Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2, and Fable can all be classed as RPGs. My reasoning for the Morrowind statement was that you exhibited your preference for Morrowind's armour slots, so I decided to tell you that by the standards that I gleaned from my reasoning in the previous paragraph, Morrowind was not an RPG either. It made the classic levelling system horrible and designed to appeal to casual players who didn't want to bother to even design their characters.

Oh wait, the general term for that is 'revolutionising'.

Believe me, I'm saddened by the loss of armour slots. But it DOES NOT make Skyrim any less of an RPG. That's just stupid.

Closest I've ever come to playing DnD was BG2 and NWN2. I can't say a game HAS to be a DnD clone to be an RPG, but stat building is nonetheless an imperative part of the genre. And I've only played Fable 1 out of those. I don't care for MODERN (edit) Bioware.

Anyways, so when I am saying insults towards the enemies I'm killing in God of War in low, gruffy Kratos-esque voice, then does that make God of War an RPG? As paradoxical as this sounds, just because you CAN rolelay doesn't mean the game is an RPG. The interactivity of video games makes it fairly easy to roleplay in virtually any game if you have enough of an imagination. RPG is a genre with certain characteristics often ascertained to it. One of which happens to be a heavy dependence on stats and customization. Roleplaying is also a characteristic, but you can't have one without the other. So no, the ability to roleplay isn't the sole qualifier of an RPG, at least in my eyes.

 

[Terminal Blue]

It has been awhile since I played(never played Morrowind so your safe at least from me) but I thought there were enemies that could dispell which would make it so you have to recast.

There are enemies who theoretically can dispel. There may even be a mod which makes them do so. It will never happen in vanilla though.

And the main issue is permanent enchantments, which can't be dispelled. A full suit of 'shielded' clothing is better than the best suit of armour in the game, and because it's so light I can also carry around my 'resist magicka' suit of clothing for when I fight mages, and my 'chameleon' suit of clothing for when I want to stealth and still be a fraction of the weight of a single suit of armour.

Dispels are also levelled. Powerful effects require powerful dispels, and since getting those powerful effects is laughably easy I seriously doubt dispelling would ever cause you any inconvenience even the AI knew how to do it.

Forget about wearing robes though, or a nice suit/dress. No, those would take up precious enchantment slots on your hands and feet. Bethesda pretty much designed the game so that the optimal strategy is to walk around looking like a tramp wearing the handcuffs you broke out of jail with because they're the only non-armour wrist item. Go hero go!