Alex_P said:
daheikmeister said:
I love me some bushi. I hate the fanfiction that passes for fact about bushi/samurai, though. To whit...
daheikmeister said:
born the a society where killing was an art
Unlike the rest of the world? All societies with an elite warrior class make a huge deal out of combat training and technique. I'll give historical bushi massive style points for death poems, but it's important to remember that a lot of our tropes about samurai come from shit that samurai did after they no longer had any real battles to fight -- the pointless wannabe wanking of an idle elite in its decadent sunset, not the exploits of real soldiers.
Well considering that ALL that a samurai did was either train for war or be in war until they retired, I would consider them a bit more into it than other societies. To a samurai, war was everything. Hell, they thought that dying in battle was the ultimate glory. They just don't know how to fight, they hunger for it. I know that other societies had their own battle-crazed baddies, but none had the crazy single-mindedness that a samurai had in battle.
Alex_P said:
daheikmeister said:
a samurai know war in all it's forms
Except, you know, truly heavy armor or pretty much any kind of hand-held shield. Those are some pretty big oversights.
I'll give you this, but the samurai never had to go up against heavy armor, as their entire society valued speed over protection due to the "glory in death" thought patterns. I personally argee on the speed, as the heavier the armor, the harder it is to move around in it. Dressed up in full plate mail will weight upwards of eighty pounds, not including any weaponry you might want to carry. I don't know about you, but battling for more than ten minutes in that kind of gear would leave me completely exhausted, and I'm pretty fit.
Alex_P said:
daheikmeister said:
the The katana both light and fast, could cleave through 3 people in less than a tenth of a second
Yeah, great numbers someone made up. Or maybe they came out of watching a video of a dude cutting up tatami mats -- real combat doesn't involve some naked guys lining up next to each other to be cut down, though
You don't quite "cleave" with a katana or tachi, anyway, in the sense of hewing into something straight-on. The technique is closer to what's called a "draw cut", using a lateral motion of the blade across the surface being cut to slice into it rather than relying on the energy of the swing to chisel through it.
Figure of speech dude. I know that a katana doesn't cleave, but the way it can slice through an enemy, it certainly looks like it does. Considering it's weight, that blade can be whipped around at some pretty ridiculous speeds. Heck, there's an entire battle style built around getting the first swing in faster. Oh, and it ain't tatami mats. I saw the guy go through 3 pigs, which means that it has to go through the spinal column, and bone is a whole lot tougher than the leather armor that most troops wore.
Alex_P said:
daheikmeister said:
yet was strong enough to survive hits with much heavier weapons due to it's ability to bend slightly.
Japanese blades aren't uniquely more durable than other weaponry. Hard impacts tend to warp or notch the blade. Japanese martial arts explicitly teach you to whack the back of an opponent's sword if you're trying to damage it. Folks love to wax poetic about the fine craftsmanship while totally ignoring the painstaking maintenance that was lavished on quality nihonto -- the swords don't actually stay awesome all by themselves, you guys.
Oh I know that maintenance is a big issue, though the samurai did consider the blade their life, And considering how long it took for a blade to be built in Japan (up to TWO MONTHS!), weapon quality was pretty much paramount. Also, no swordsman in any society would let the actual blade edge to be hit against a weapon. standard practice would be to catch and deflect along the side of the blade, so the full force doesn't get transferred into the blade.
Alex_P said:
daheikmeister said:
And should the enemy be armored with plate- or chain-mail, the katana could be used to pierce as well.
Just being able to thrust is insufficient. Effectively fighting an opponent in full harness pretty much demands a purpose-built sword. Nihonto were never designed for this purpose. Longsword techniques against plate generally revolve around half-swording to increase how much force you can put into your strike; that's not the kind of thing you can do with a katana.
The katana wasn't designed to pierce, but it certainly was capable of it. As the samurai is usually lighter armored than a knight, he'll aim for the chinks in the plate to bring his target down. Even a knight with full armor will have chinks, and though chainmail can be used to cover those hole in the defense, it is only designed against slices, so [strong]any[/strong] weapon that's stabbing towards that ***** can cause damage. All you need is a single well placed stab to bring the knight down to the ground, and by then it's too late for him.
*aside* man we really picked apart each other's arguments, didn't we?