Poll: Videogames and Women

[Jinxzy]

It's sad to say but sex sells in advertisement. I mean look at any axe commercial they show that if you spray your body with the stuff, woman fall all over you. Even though I think the stuff smells awful. Even for woman, go look at any romance novel in a book store and there are men with perfect abs. Unfortunate we became a world based on sexual images.
It comes down to how mature people are and take theses images. Most people know it's something to ogle over and not really real. I mean even magazines mostly everything is photoshopped to look better.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I don't hate anyone who doesn't share my views (my opinions tend to be rather niche, to say the least) and I'm not force-feeding my views down anyone's throat.

Actually, when you imply that because it doesn't personally bother you, the complaints aren't valid? That's exactly what you're doing.

I'm uncertain about the validity of this complaint. It seems to me that the sexist pigs who fuck with women for being women are oftentimes the same people who fuck with everyone simply because they're hidden beneath a veil of anonymity. As a man who plays online I've gotten a fair share of abuse from trash-talking simpletons merely for existing. People calling me a fag, kicking me for winning a game, sending me insulting messages, etc. Vitriol is nigh omnipresent in the multiplayer community.

Yes, the nature of insults hurled at women is different than those lobbed at men but I believe the reason for this is that the English language has gendered insults.

So, I'm not certain that the vitriol women get in multiplayer games is symptomatic of a pervasive sexist attitude against women so much as being the fault of the same immature punks who insult everyone.

Trash talk or no, gendered insults and calling people "fags" are symptomatic. The implication is that if the insults have any truth to them, you're inferior.

We really don't need to stick to sexual images though and can object to so much of it. And romance novels don't really work as a good example because the product is kinda geared that way itself.

Also it is quite centric to heterosexual males when it comes to video games. It isn't just sexual imagery, it's sexual imagery trying to appeal to heterosexual males specifically for the most part.

It doesn't just come down to how we take these images, there's responsibility on the part of the people making these images.

Precisely.

So what would you have me do, then? Change everything about myself and report to you? Then run out and change again until you, personally, are satisfied? Seems reasonable.

I'm curious, when did it become your goal to convince me that this is such a gigantic issue? Are you confused? Do you think I have a major role in the industry that makes me responsible for this heinous problem you're clearly quite upset by?

No, it's far simpler than that: You could simply acknowledge that just because it doesn't personally bother you doesn't mean that it's not valid.

In other words: stop trying to shout people down, being condescending, setting up strawmen (i.e. that wanting as much variety in female characters as one sees in male characters = wanting all female characters in games to be ugly), and so on.

It's cool though, you need someone to take this frustration out on and looks like I won that prize.

Not really; you simply don't seem to know when to quit.

I'm fine with that but don't get too upset after you spend all this time going off on me only to find that there are still girls in video games who can't live up to your high standards for women, okay? (I like you!)

Again: it's certainly your right not to be bothered by it. But railing against the very suggestion that there is any sort of a real issue at all? That's another matter altogether.

 

[Savagezion]

It's sad to say but sex sells in advertisement. I mean look at any axe commercial they show that if you spray your body with the stuff, woman fall all over you.

Yeah, I got a bottle of axe and just stood outside spraying it all over me and everything around me and not one horny girl showed up. I was so pissed. I will say that men get those ads thrown at us more because the response (Commercially) is higher, usually between ages 16-24.

I wonder how many women thought that a Diet Coke in an elevator would lead to this:

 

[Jinxzy]

It's sad to say but sex sells in advertisement. I mean look at any axe commercial they show that if you spray your body with the stuff, woman fall all over you. Even though I think the stuff smells awful. Even for woman, go look at any romance novel in a book store and there are men with perfect abs. Unfortunate we became a world based on sexual images.
It comes down to how mature people are and take theses images. Most people know it's something to ogle over and not really real. I mean even magazines mostly everything is photoshopped to look better.

We really don't need to stick to sexual images though and can object to so much of it. And romance novels don't really work as a good example because the product is kinda geared that way itself.

Also it is quite centric to heterosexual males when it comes to video games. It isn't just sexual imagery, it's sexual imagery trying to appeal to heterosexual males specifically for the most part.

It doesn't just come down to how we take these images, there's responsibility on the part of the people making these images.

Romance novels are the number one top selling gene in books. But if that doesn't count then there's other commercials that sell hot sexy men to woman. Like the I can't believe it's not butter "french toast" advertisement. They use a shirtless bulky guy to sell butter to woman. If your going to find people responsible for selling these images you have to look at all types of media, not just video games.

So what if it's geared to heterosexual males? When your advertising you find the biggest pool of who is buying and sell to them. It's like selling any type of ad during the super bowl. Most of the commercials are towards men even thought woman watch the super bowl. Just like life time, oxygen all advertise woman products and spike tv, g4 advertises to men. Even though everything is becoming uni-sex, it's not going to stop people from selling sex or to certain groups. It's just how advertisement works.

 

[Savagezion]

I'm uncertain about the validity of this complaint. It seems to me that the sexist pigs who fuck with women for being women are oftentimes the same people who fuck with everyone simply because they're hidden beneath a veil of anonymity. As a man who plays online I've gotten a fair share of abuse from trash-talking simpletons merely for existing. People calling me a fag, kicking me for winning a game, sending me insulting messages, etc. Vitriol is nigh omnipresent in the multiplayer community.

Yes, the nature of insults hurled at women is different than those lobbed at men but I believe the reason for this is that the English language has gendered insults.

So, I'm not certain that the vitriol women get in multiplayer games is symptomatic of a pervasive sexist attitude against women so much as being the fault of the same immature punks who insult everyone.

Trash talk or no, gendered insults and calling people "fags" are symptomatic. The implication is that if the insults have any truth to them, you're inferior.

That's too mature an argument geared at immature minds.** That is also reading way too much thought process into an act of passion/hate. Someone just beat him at his favorite game, he is pissed. He calls them a "fag", they happen to be gay. So what? Does that mean being gay clearly IS something inferior? No. It just means this dude is pissed and wants to piss you off. Just send back "You are the one who can't beat a fag at this game." Watch him get even more pissed (fun) or watch him become cordial and turn out to be pretty cool. Don't online rage personal.

**I'm not calling Iron lightning immature, I actually agree pretty strongly with him. If someone sends me a text that says "Eat me, *****!" I don't take any offense. Hell, I actually take nothing but joy. A woman might very well read that and take personal offense because she is female, which honestly, is stupid. Because "*****" could just have easily been "******", "cracker", or "fag" or any other derogatory term. His intention was to insult the 'victim', not do it properly. If that happens to have weight, I am sure its just a bonus to him. The intention of the insult is to make you feel degraded. That's what insults are and why people say them.

 

[Jinxzy]

It's sad to say but sex sells in advertisement. I mean look at any axe commercial they show that if you spray your body with the stuff, woman fall all over you.

Yeah, I got a bottle of axe and just stood outside spraying it all over me and everything around me and not one horny girl showed up. I was so pissed. I will say that men get those ads thrown at us more because the response (Commercially) is higher, usually between ages 16-24.

I wonder how many women thought that a Diet Coke in an elevator would lead to this:

I'm going to drink diet coke all day long till he shows up. :x

 

[Riddle78]

We have some strong female characters that either weaponize their sexuality to intimidate the audience,like Bayonetta (the Game OverThinker picks this one apart,so check him out about that particular argument),while others simply throw sexuality aside,like that angel person in League of Legends,whose default skin is a suit of androgynous platemail armour and face-concealing helm. People watching the game,or players who've never used her,would assume she's a guy,and Alyx Vance of Half-Life 2 is among the most badass characters in the games,and dressed appropriately for her role in the game; The companion character who's more mobile than Gordon.

However,these examples are few and far between. Yes,the treatment of women needs to improve in games,but the removal of pandering eye candy in games shouldn't be erased. It can still exist. Just in MUCH smaller dosages,as to avoid being the norm.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

That's too mature an argument geared at immature minds.**

I'm sure every little XBL snot isn't intentionally a bigot. But intent isn't magic.

Yes,the treatment of women needs to improve in games,but the removal of pandering eye candy in games shouldn't be erased. It can still exist. Just in MUCH smaller dosages,as to avoid being the norm.

Hell...if the fanservice were more equal-opportunity, I don't think I'd care.

Of course, there are always a certain contingent of fans who freak out whenever a male character actually is designed to look seductive.

 

[DarkRyter]

I think I understand your point completely.

Men need to start looking sexier in video games.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I think I understand your point completely.

Men need to start looking sexier in video games.

That would mean the designers would have to start ignoring the little group of fans who, whenever they see something [http://oi55.tinypic.com/xe0w94.jpg] like [http://oi41.tinypic.com/155th4w.jpg] these [http://oi52.tinypic.com/k50foz.jpg], start going off about how "gay" it is.

Of course, that word choice is quite telling: it's almost as if those fans are so used to fanservice being strictly for guys that they actually can't conceive of it being otherwise.

 

[soulonfire]

I don't have an issue with how women are portrayed in games, it's a game after all, nothing real. But i find it's more the attitude towards female gamers that is the problem, like we aren't supposed to be any good at them...and i'm not saying all guys have that attitude but i definitely know a few that do :/

 

[Dogstile]

As my husband would put it: men the fanboys want to be, women the fanboys want to do.

I was going to agree, then I remembered gears and remembered a montage of Marcus being angry. Oh man, anyone who wants to be a guy who sounds no different when being angry about loss to being angry because he has to walk around an obstacle is someone i'm worried about

OT:

I would say to her to just avoid the sexualised games. The sex thing is prevalent in any industry so avoiding it seems to be the way to go. And no people, i'm not arguing that it's there and its not changing so we shouldn't try, but I am saying their are alternatives.

Also, as a final point, that ass shot made me laugh out loud with how ridiculous it is. Oh Bioware, if I hadn't seen the artwork of neverwinter nights, I would be complaining that you had fallen

 

[spartan773]

I say hell yes because for every few scantily-clad female, there's a couple more reasonable ones in reasonable clothes.

 

[Grospoliner]

Firstly, that BF3 "Launch Party" was a Texan gamer group that did in fact ban females from their party. http://www.neoseeker.com/news/16956-texas-gaming-group-bans-women-from-battlefield-3-launch-lan-party/ Rather than being any sort of official channel, not that EA's selection of music for the release trailer of BF3 was any sort of appropriate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o08S7LRglro

Secondly, irony much! The Soul Caliber series does indeed feature beautiful women but most of the female characters do not typically feature skimpy impractical outfits. Of course this isn't the case for the poster child for complaints about sexualization of women in gaming that is Ivy [http://soulcalibur.wikia.com/wiki/Ivy] even though at no point is she ever subservient or demure, though is somewhat tortured and neurotic but still finds resolve to do what she must. I don't think most people ever look past her rack.

Never mind that the majority of the female characters are not overly sexualized in the game, and heavens forbid we mention the ultimate desexed female warrior Hilde [http://soulcalibur.wikia.com/wiki/Hilde] who happens to wear plate armor as her default costume (and manages to look cooler than all the other characters combined). I guess we can go through pointing out all the flaws perceived in a game with regards to this subject without pointing out any of the things they did right.

While we are at it, let's also ignore the atrocity which is American media and the pervasiveness of shallow, vapid, egotistical women who plastered all over the television that mistakenly foster the belief that this is the way women should act. I am of course referring to all the Kardasians, Hiltons, Spears, and every empty husk that appears on any MTV reality show.

The problem isn't unique to gaming alone, neither are the attitudes, the problem is systemic within the culture itself and it is a byproduct of generations of psychological abuse stemming from medieval traditions, Abrahammic religions, greed, fear, and biological instinct to procreate.

We should be aiming at the source of the problem (the psychological problem), not the delivery vehicle (the media).

 

[Savagezion]

That's too mature an argument geared at immature minds.**

I'm sure every little XBL snot isn't intentionally a bigot. But intent isn't magic.

Oh don't get me wrong, they are intentionally assholes. I am simply pointing out that bigotry is the easiest way to be an asshole. Pig, Dog, and the theme of only being able to use 1 head are common female bigoted statements for men. Women will state these things as fact when no male around them has done anything offensive. The whole "women are smarter than men" thing. Women got a fair amount of bigotry in their circle. Just like any other social group.

I am not saying you deny that, I am just bringing that up for the discussion on social behavior. I have had women tell me to suck their cock online. My friend calls me a *****, and is a woman.

I guess my point in response is, intent is key to context. If you WANT to see that as offensive, go ahead I guess. However, a lot of times it isn't meant like that but rather as banter. Sometimes it is meant to be offensive, but only because of their inadequacy being exposed, they feel the need to lash out and do it back at you.
If I was a chick, the constant "show me your boobs" type stuff would get annoying as hell. That is something I think is worth getting worked up over and voicing up about more. Being called a *****, stick and stones. Just listen to "I am beautiful" by Christina Aguilara and feel better. (JK) The other is more along the lines of sexual harassment. That should be an insta-ban worthy offense.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Firstly, that BF3 "Launch Party" was a Texan gamer group that did in fact ban females from their party. http://www.neoseeker.com/news/16956-texas-gaming-group-bans-women-from-battlefield-3-launch-lan-party/ Rather than being any sort of official channel, not that EA's selection of music for the release trailer of BF3 was any sort of appropriate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o08S7LRglro

Everyone knows that. Not everyone thinks that excuses it. It was wrongheaded and chickenshit of them at best.

Secondly, irony much! The Soul Caliber series does indeed feature beautiful women but most of the female characters do not typically feature skimpy impractical outfits. Of course this isn't the case for the poster child for complaints about sexualization of women in gaming that is Ivy [http://soulcalibur.wikia.com/wiki/Ivy] even though at no point is she ever subservient or demure, though is somewhat tortured and neurotic but still finds resolve to do what she must. I don't think most people ever look past her rack.

Never mind that the majority of the female characters are not overly sexualized in the game, and heavens forbid we mention the ultimate desexed female warrior Hilde [http://soulcalibur.wikia.com/wiki/Hilde] who happens to wear plate armor as her default costume (and manages to look cooler than all the other characters combined). I guess we can go through pointing out all the flaws perceived in a game with regards to this subject without pointing out any of the things they did right.

I wouldn't call Hilde "desexed," just not at all fanservicey. You can still tell there's a pretty lady under that armor. (And that juxtaposition is a good thing.)

As for Ivy, refer to what Moviebob said about Mai Shiranui:

...if you know anything about [her], it's because you looked it up.

The same applies here.

While we are at it, let's also ignore the atrocity which is American media and the pervasiveness of shallow, vapid, egotistical women who plastered all over the television that mistakenly foster the belief that this is the way women should act. I am of course referring to all the Kardasians, Hiltons, Spears, and every empty husk that appears on any MTV reality show.

The problem isn't unique to gaming alone, neither are the attitudes, the problem is systemic within the culture itself and it is a byproduct of generations of psychological abuse stemming from medieval traditions, Abrahammic religions, greed, fear, and biological instinct to procreate.

We should be aiming at the source of the problem (the psychological problem), not the delivery vehicle (the media).

For the most part, I agree (although I'd say the drive to procreate has screw-all to do with anything but your typical straight guy's tendency to notice hips). The media is a symptom, not a cause.

But pretending that the symptom doesn't exist, or is irrelevant, is also no way to go about it.

I guess my point in response is, intent is key to context. If you WANT to see that as offensive, go ahead I guess. However, a lot of times it isn't meant like that but rather as banter. Sometimes it is meant to be offensive, but only because of their inadequacy being exposed, they feel the need to lash out and do it back at you.
If I was a chick, the constant "show me your boobs" type stuff would get annoying as hell. That is something I think is worth getting worked up over and voicing up about more. Being called a *****, stick and stones. Just listen to "I am beautiful" by Christina Aguilara and feel better. (JK) The other is more along the lines of sexual harassment. That should be an insta-ban worthy offense.

This has nothing to do with whether or not I'm personally offended. (I actually tend to report the worst shit and move on.)

But the fact still remains that...well, let's say someone flings a racial slur. It makes no difference whether or not it was intended as a generic snarl word; it's still racism.

 

[Lerasai]

I've said my piece on this subject many times before. Basically, men and women should get the same treatment in gaming whether it's to make them sexy or not. Most games have a pretty sizable female audience and we are just as shallow and depraved as the guys. If you need proof as to the numbers and sexual interest, just check out the slash fanbase for any game. Look up what a kink meme is. Or go to tumblr or deviantart. Chicks love video games. Some of us also have a fixation on dudes doing each other, but that's not always related. We're here, we're a bit weird, and we want scantily clad men. So sex them mofos up and get twice the marketing power.

 

[Iron Lightning]

I'm uncertain about the validity of this complaint. It seems to me that the sexist pigs who fuck with women for being women are oftentimes the same people who fuck with everyone simply because they're hidden beneath a veil of anonymity. As a man who plays online I've gotten a fair share of abuse from trash-talking simpletons merely for existing. People calling me a fag, kicking me for winning a game, sending me insulting messages, etc. Vitriol is nigh omnipresent in the multiplayer community.

Yes, the nature of insults hurled at women is different than those lobbed at men but I believe the reason for this is that the English language has gendered insults.

So, I'm not certain that the vitriol women get in multiplayer games is symptomatic of a pervasive sexist attitude against women so much as being the fault of the same immature punks who insult everyone.

Trash talk or no, gendered insults and calling people "fags" are symptomatic. The implication is that if the insults have any truth to them, you're inferior.

I would agree with you that the insults in multiplayer games do mostly attack the victim for being feminine (not necessarily female, mind you.) However, we must realize that competitive multiplayer games are a masculine (again, not necessarily male) enterprise and therefore the best insult is one that derogates the victim for apparently exhibiting feminine qualities (e.g. "fag," "*****," "cocksucker," etc.) Some idiots attribute femininity to all women and therefore choose to call them out for this perceived failing. These same idiots will oftentimes do the same thing to men also automatically because of their shallow need to exert alpha status.

I suppose my main point is that it's mostly immature little snots who automatically fuck with women for being women in order to exert their masculinity and this is not a pervasive trend of inherent misogyny. In fact, I'd hazard that most of the men that you've met online have not been sexist wankers towards you.

If the situation was that men never got denigrated in the online community but women routinely did then you would have more of a point. I'm also willing to admit that there are actual misogynists who play games but outside of them I don't see very much sexism from other players. Even the punktards are more usually the type that insults everyone and not really sexists.

Spoiler: and just for fun

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

[I would agree with you that the insults in multiplayer games do mostly attack the victim for being feminine (not necessarily female, mind you.) However, we must realize that competitive multiplayer games are a masculine (again, not necessarily male) enterprise and therefore the best insult is one that derogates the victim for apparently exhibiting feminine qualities (e.g. "fag," "*****," "cocksucker," etc.) Some idiots attribute femininity to all women and therefore choose to call them out for this perceived failing. These same idiots will oftentimes do the same thing to men also automatically because of their shallow need to exert alpha status.

I suppose my main point is that it's mostly immature little snots who automatically fuck with women for being women in order to exert their masculinity and this is not a pervasive trend of inherent misogyny.

Well, here's the thing: Equating femininity (whatever the heck that means) with weakness, and needing to "exert" one's masculinity? That seems pretty sexist in its own right.

In fact, I'd hazard that most of the men that you've met online have not been sexist wankers towards you.

No, but I'm also aware that I've been at least reasonably lucky in that regard.

If the situation was that men never got denigrated in the online community but women routinely did then you would have more of a point. I'm also willing to admit that there are actual misogynists who play games but outside of them I don't see very much sexism from other players. Even the punktards are more usually the type that insults everyone and not really sexists.

Again: automatically equating being female or feminine with being incompetent or ineffectual is sexism. Even if it's not the intent, and the punklets are just trying to boost their own egos.

The comic is funny, by the way.

 

[LilithSlave]

I know that nobody wants to hear this coming from me, considering I'm a loudmouth non-fan of first person shooters. But first person shooter fans, way to throw your image in the gutter with things like this. Hearing about things like that almost make me feel ashamed to be a gamer. And certainly don't make me want to try a first person shooter more.