Poll: Would we all be cool with a female Link?

[thenoblitt]

no i wouldnt be cool with a female link, for the same reason i wouldnt like a male samus, ruining someones creation to appease and audience or group of people is stupid.

 

[Olas]

Snip

Please, I implore you, read some LoZ lore, digest it, make your own arguments from the source material. Offhand comments prove nothing either way, they just lead to frustration.

Okay, first of all I'm far more familiar with Zelda lore than you probably think. I'm maybe not quite as invested as you are, but I'm not some outsider looking in, so there's no need to tell me that I'm too ignorant to understand you or that I need to educate myself

Okay, with that out of the way I'll respond to your arguments.

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

The second is the long standing connection between feminine and divine.

What are you even talking about? Gods can be male or female. In some cultures certain genders may be more attributed to divinity than others but what does that matter to the Zelda series or the matter at hand? It seems like you're taking a bunch of old cultural stereotypes and treating them like they're some sort of unbending set of rules for how a fictional story is allowed to work.

The discussion of Link's attributes was not a standalone discussion, it was connected, quite intimately, to the intro discussing duality, and placed as a direct foil to Zelda's characteristics because that's how it is in the series The hero complements the reincarnation of the goddess, they complete each other, bolster the weaknesses of one another, and that is why they succeed.

And please explain how any of what you just said makes it impossible for Link to be female?

Also I remember you saying the following in your long first post:

Zelda, physically, is timid and weak, yet she knows far beyond her years and is an accomplished sorceress.

Would you describe Sheik as being timid and weak? Would you describe Tetra as being timid and weak? Zelda has often appeared as strong and independent throughout the series, and I don't think her entire character and personality immediately changes the minute she puts on different clothes. In most of the Zelda games I've played she actively helps Link fight Ganondorf, often by firing arrows at him with Link's bow. Of course none of this has anything to do with the gender of the characters, I just thought it was something to point out.

 

[qeinar]

For me they would have to have a good reason for doing it, just doing it for the sake of doing it wouldn't be enough.

 

[Savagezion]

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

Woah, now. That isn't how reincarnation works. If Zelda is a reincarnated Goddess then all of them are automatically. Reincarnation means same person, different body. It doesn't have to say it anywhere else. If it was ever officially said that Zelda IS a reincarnated Goddess, then all of them are.

You are maybe thinking of manifestation or possession. Reincarnation refers to multiple people are really the same soul in a different body at different times.

Unless you can grasp that, you have no hope of following the logic behind the rest of garcian's post. Just a heads up.

 

[AuronFtw]

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

Woah, now. That isn't how reincarnation works. If Zelda is a reincarnated Goddess then all of them are automatically. Reincarnation means same person, different body. It doesn't have to say it anywhere else. If it was ever officially said that Zelda IS a reincarnated Goddess, then all of them are.

You are maybe thinking of manifestation or possession. Reincarnation refers to multiple people are really the same soul in a different body at different times.

Unless you can grasp that, you have no hope of following the logic behind the rest of garcian's post. Just a heads up.

I realize this is a fantasy game and reincarnation is a fantasy concept, but you're mis-applying it even in this case. If you're not aware, Nintendo released an "official" timeline of the zelda games, showing 3 distinct universes where different actions led to different scenarios. It's very possible for a zelda in one of the timelines to be a reincarnation of a goddess without the other zeldas in other timelines also being such; as it is, link is fucking dead in one of the timelines (allowing ganon to gain power), and the other timelines aren't affected by it (since, in those "universes," link never died or had to be revived).

Assuming every zelda is a goddess if 1 is is based on a false premise. Everything built on top of that premise will be equally wrong. I don't particularly like nintendo's timeline idea, but it's "canon" so if you're trying to have e-fights about it, at least keep the canon in mind.

 

[The Wooster]

New Link is a woman? Hell no. Ruins the character.

Windwaker Link is a midget? Sign me the fuck up, son.

 

[Savagezion]

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

Woah, now. That isn't how reincarnation works. If Zelda is a reincarnated Goddess then all of them are automatically. Reincarnation means same person, different body. It doesn't have to say it anywhere else. If it was ever officially said that Zelda IS a reincarnated Goddess, then all of them are.

You are maybe thinking of manifestation or possession. Reincarnation refers to multiple people are really the same soul in a different body at different times.

Unless you can grasp that, you have no hope of following the logic behind the rest of garcian's post. Just a heads up.

I realize this is a fantasy game and reincarnation is a fantasy concept, but you're mis-applying it even in this case. If you're not aware, Nintendo released an "official" timeline of the zelda games, showing 3 distinct universes where different actions led to different scenarios. It's very possible for a zelda in one of the timelines to be a reincarnation of a goddess without the other zeldas in other timelines also being such; as it is, link is fucking dead in one of the timelines (allowing ganon to gain power), and the other timelines aren't affected by it (since, in those "universes," link never died or had to be revived).

Assuming every zelda is a goddess if 1 is is based on a false premise. Everything built on top of that premise will be equally wrong. I don't particularly like nintendo's timeline idea, but it's "canon" so if you're trying to have e-fights about it, at least keep the canon in mind.

Well if you pay attention to the timeline Skyward Sword is where she is stated to be a goddess reincarnated. All alternate timelines branch off of that one. This is stated at the beginning of the timeline before any branching occurs and all branches come from that.

However, that said, what do you guys think reincarnation is? A soul (the thing that makes you, you and me, me) is transferred from one body to a new one. If you are not the reincarnation of the goddess you are not Zelda. That is either true of a character or not. Alternate timelines wont effect that. Your soul is your soul. Without souls, no reincarnation. I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I think despite the vocal douchebags who give the rest of the gaming community a bad name, that if done right a female Link would go over pretty well.
But I'd think it would behoove Nintendo to spotlight Princess Zelda as a protagonist rather than the target of Ganon's ire and rather than substitute Link's gender.
I do feel it would give a different perspective (Sheik anyone?) and a playthrough that would be fun. Just as long as we never ever see a CDi type game ever EVER again. Ye gods did Nintendo drop the ball on that one.

 

[Savagezion]

I think despite the vocal douchebags who give the rest of the gaming community a bad name, that if done right a female Link would go over pretty well.
But I'd think it would behoove Nintendo to spotlight Princess Zelda as a protagonist rather than the target of Ganon's ire and rather than substitute Link's gender.
I do feel it would give a different perspective (Sheik anyone?) and a playthrough that would be fun. Just as long as we never ever see a CDi type game ever EVER again. Ye gods did Nintendo drop the ball on that one.

Wow, really? Anyone who disagrees is a douchebag who gives gaming a bad name... Gotta say, you ain't exactly making the gaming community look fantastic yourself there guy.

 

[Dragonbums]

Well if you pay attention to the timeline Skyward Sword is where she is stated to be a goddess reincarnated.

You do realize that it wasn't up until now that Nintendo even so much as gave a shit about the Zelda timelines right? They even said years ago that they never really cared about which game took place first. However so many people bitched and cried about it to them that they finally slapped something together so people would leave them alone about it.

This is stated at the beginning of the timeline before any branching occurs and all branches come from that.

But branching off is still branching off. When something deviates from the norm that means something different happened from the thing it originated from. Therefore it doesn't automatically invalidate a female Link at all

However, that said, what do you guys think reincarnation is? A soul (the thing that makes you, you and me, me) is transferred from one body to a new one.

A person reincarnated into another form. That can be anything you can possibly imagine. I can reincarnate into the body of a fox. So what would happen if the Goddess reincarnated as a bird? There will obviously still be a Zelda. She will just not be the triforce of wisdom.




If you are not the reincarnation of the goddess you are not Zelda.[/quote]

If Zelda wasn't the reincarnation of the Goddess, then that simply means she does not hold the triforce of Wisdom. She doesn't stop being "Zelda". Zelda's entire existence does not and should not hinge on a single aspect that she has.

That is either true of a character or not. Alternate timelines wont effect that.

Alternate timelines will affect that because they are alternate timelines. In an alternate timeline it is very possible for the Link, holder of the triforce of courage to be the ruler of Hyrule, and Zelda to not.

Which will automatically put you in the position where we basically have a playable female "link" the only difference is that she is Zelda.
You keep acting like everything is set in stone and nothing can change, but there is far too much wiggle room for that to happen.

This on top of the fact that Nintendo does whatever the hell they want for the Zelda series anyway. The timeline theory only matters to people who spend far too much time looking into this stuff.

 

[Dragonbums]

I don't particularly like nintendo's timeline idea, but it's "canon"

The thing is is that Nintendo never really gave a fuck about the whole timeline thing anyway. They said that years ago. The only reason why they did it now is because they still had people whining about them not caring about the timeline, so they just slapped something together.
Any inconsistencies (due to them not caring in the first place) that occur are called alternate timelines.

However I highly doubt Nintendo will really follow that anyway unless they specifically state that such and such game (like Link Between Worlds) was a sequel to a specific installment.

 

[garcian67]

Okay, first of all I'm far more familiar with Zelda lore than you probably think. I'm maybe not quite as invested as you are, but I'm not some outsider looking in, so there's no need to tell me that I'm too ignorant to understand you or that I need to educate myself

In now way did I call you ignorant. I have no idea of your knowledge of the lore, as you have never made an argument, citing examples from the lore, that includes the LoZ universe in a substantive way.

Okay, with that out of the way I'll respond to your arguments

Please respond to the arguments I made in the post where I actually argued, most of what you have quoted as fallacy have been clarifying statements not designed to stand on their own, but act in conjunction with my other post.

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

This point is where our disagreement is, apparently. Zelda, in any game (except maybe spirit tracks, never played that one so no clue) is always Hylia. Just as Link always possesses the spirit of the hero, and Ganon/Gannon is Demise's malice given form. This is nigh on indisputable, as laid down, explicitly, in skyward sword. As hinted at (though in different terms given how the series has evolved) in a Link to the past.

The second is the long standing connection between feminine and divine.

What are you even talking about? Gods can be male or female. In some cultures certain genders may be more attributed to divinity than others but what does that matter to the Zelda series or the matter at hand?

This connection between femininity and divinity is explicit in the LoZ universe, which is what I was referring to. At no point did I bring in outside cultures. If you would like to refute the point that femininity and divinity are equated in LoZ, please present evidence.

It seems like you're taking a bunch of old cultural stereotypes and treating them like they're some sort of unbending set of rules for how a fictional story is allowed to work.

Again, at no point have I brought in outside cultures. The only rules a story has are the ones it sets for itself, and it is those rules which I am arguing from.

I would appreciate you doing the same.

The discussion of Link's attributes was not a standalone discussion, it was connected, quite intimately, to the intro discussing duality, and placed as a direct foil to Zelda's characteristics because that's how it is in the series The hero complements the reincarnation of the goddess, they complete each other, bolster the weaknesses of one another, and that is why they succeed.

And please explain how any of what you just said makes it impossible for Link to be female?

None of that does explain it, because what you quoted isn't my argument, merely a clarifying statement. Please read the post where I laid all this out, it contains my reasoning and my evidence. You can dispute either my reasoning or my evidence, but you will need your own reasoning and evidence.

Would you describe Sheik as being timid and weak? Would you describe Tetra as being timid and weak? Zelda has often appeared as strong and independent throughout the series, and I don't think her entire character and personality immediately changes the minute she puts on different clothes. In most of the Zelda games I've played she actively helps Link fight Ganondorf, often by firing arrows at him with Link's bow. Of course none of this has anything to do with the gender of the characters, I just thought it was something to point out.

Sheik is Zelda's power focused into action. I ask you though, why she didn't use this power to prevent Ganon's rise to power? It is because she lacked courage, as explained in link's first talk with Zelda in OoT. Indeed, she has more than enough influence to stop ganon in those early years, as shown by the timeline branch where link succeeds, returns to the past, warns Zelda, and thereby presents Ganon's rise. Zelda didn't do this on her own, because she lacked the courage. She didn't act soon enough and bad things occurred. This, if you are familiar with LoZ lore, is the entire story.

Wisdom or courage alone will not prevent tyranny at the hands of powerful malice. They are both needed. Personified, as they are, in Link and Zelda.

Tetra is a slightly different case. Hylia was dormant in tetra, and thus she wasn't "Zelda". She was the shell and spirit, but not the person, if you will. When she is awakened later, she doesn't display more bold traits than the typical Zelda such as shooting ganon, possibly due to the strength of tetra's own spirit, but more likely because by the time she is awakened it is already time for the serious business of stopping ganon's plan at its end stages. There simply isn't time to wait, watch, and think: the situation requires immediate action and Zelda acts, importantly, only in coordination with the hero, not on her own.


As to your point about Zelda in the final battles, if I recall correctly (and I could be wrong as it has been a rather long time for some of these) she only helps directly in Twilight Princess and Wind Waker, but her assistance doesn't discredit any of the points made, as that is her purpose, to assist the hero in defeating the evil. Just as it is the hero's purpose to assist her.


Please, if you disagree, find examples in the lore that prove your points, find inconsistencies between my reasoning and the themes of the series, don't just quote this post and say "it doesn't explain why fem link can't exist" because it doesn't. That's not the purpose of this post. I explained, at considerable length, why a fem link would strain credulity when viewed through the established canon. Those are the arguments that should be debunked, not these side conversations about confounding factors with little overall bearing on the subject.

In other words, If you think I'm wrong (as you seem to) explain how the series shows this. As that is the entirety of this discussion, what is shown in the series and thus what can be justified.

 

[garcian67]

You do realize that it wasn't up until now that Nintendo even so much as gave a shit about the Zelda timelines right? They even said years ago that they never really cared about which game took place first. However so many people bitched and cried about it to them that they finally slapped something together so people would leave them alone about it.

Nintendo's timeline is very half-assed, but most of it follows the trend of the games it describes. Also, the statement that Nintendo doesn't care about the story isn't an argument, and it doesn't prove anything.

But branching off is still branching off. When something deviates from the norm that means something different happened from the thing it originated from.

The branching occurs following ocarina of time. Well after the cycle has been established. The struggle we commonly refer to as being between Ganon/Gannon, Zelda, and Link is explained in skyward sword to be a never ending cycle between the pure malice of Demise (ganon), the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia (Zelda) and the spirit of man who proved himself a hero (link). Demise himself states that his evil will continue to come until the world is conquered. The spirit of the hero is therefore preserved by the goddesses and appears when evil threatens the world to help hylia fight back the latest incarnation of Demise's malice.

So what would happen if the Goddess reincarnated as a bird? There will obviously still be a Zelda. She will just not be the triforce of wisdom.

The goddess doesn't reincarnate at random. She chose to be reincarnated as a mortal. The first reincarnation was the titular Zelda, it is in skyward sword the human who serves as a vessel for hylia was given this name and it is her story (the Legend of Zelda) which we are discussing here. Hylia is not the triforce of wisdom. The triforce of wisdom is the physical and terrestrial representation of the power of the Goddess Nayru. Hylia and Nayru are separate beings, and Zelda/Hylia is merely the bearer of the triforce of wisdom.




If you are not the reincarnation of the goddess you are not Zelda

Above all else, this statement holds.

If Zelda wasn't the reincarnation of the Goddess, then that simply means she does not hold the triforce of Wisdom. She doesn't stop being "Zelda". Zelda's entire existence does not and should not hinge on a single aspect that she has.

Zelda's entire existence hinges on her being reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. Hylia chose to take mortal form, she chose it to be as Zelda. Hylia and Zelda are no the same being. That being said, you confuse, again, being the reincarnation of Hylia and being the bearer of the triforce of wisdom. While it is likely that have the soul of a god gave Zelda a slight advantage in the wisdom department, these things are not explicitly linked in any way. The triforce of wisdom chose Zelda because she embodied wisdom above the other virtues and possessed it in great amount.

Alternate timelines will affect that because they are alternate timelines. In an alternate timeline it is very possible for the Link, holder of the triforce of courage to be the ruler of Hyrule, and Zelda to not.

Which will automatically put you in the position where we basically have a playable female "link" the only difference is that she is Zelda.
You keep acting like everything is set in stone and nothing can change, but there is far too much wiggle room for that to happen.

I don't even know what to say here. It is so full of Lore inconsistencies and conjecture that I do not know where to begin to correct it.

I shall try:

Your theories on alternate timelines might hold in a different universe, but the way they are used in LoZ is different. The timeline only branches at OoT, and the events that occur after are known. It isn't some massive paradox where events become "timey wimey" and reality is scrambled. It is rather simple cause and effect. As a side point, you wouldn't want Link (by which I mean the hero), the oafish and simple, as a ruler. It is not his role in destiny, it is not in his blood, and not what his traits are groomed for. A king needs much more than courage.

Nothing is set in stone, that much is certain. I am merely trying to present the case that the current canon is aligned fairly strongly against the possibility of a female bearer of the triforce of courage. It is entirely possible Nintendo will announce the game tomorrow that features a female "Link" in which case that would add to the canon, and require quite a bit of revisionism, but, as it stands, that is rather unlikely.


Again, everyone in this thread, please use the Lore and your own reasoning, there is no point in having wars over conjecture when we have all the evidence readily available.

Edit: I apologize for the double Post

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I think despite the vocal douchebags who give the rest of the gaming community a bad name, that if done right a female Link would go over pretty well.
But I'd think it would behoove Nintendo to spotlight Princess Zelda as a protagonist rather than the target of Ganon's ire and rather than substitute Link's gender.
I do feel it would give a different perspective (Sheik anyone?) and a playthrough that would be fun. Just as long as we never ever see a CDi type game ever EVER again. Ye gods did Nintendo drop the ball on that one.

Wow, really? Anyone who disagrees is a douchebag who gives gaming a bad name... Gotta say, you ain't exactly making the gaming community look fantastic yourself there guy.

Try not reading too far beyond the surface before you reply. I didn't name all dissenters as douchebags, merely failed to mention that I was speaking of the vitriolic purists who have little in the way of tact or social grace and harbor slightly (being kind here) sexist viewpoints. Same as the thinly veiled racists who had issues with Idris Elba's portrayal of Heimdall in Thor. Those people. I thought it was easy to figure out when I said douchebag that it was intended to point out the worst of the lot who have the loudest voices and seem to be the one non-gamers point to as "typical gamer nerd".

 

[Dragonbums]

Nintendo's timeline is very half-assed, but most of it follows the trend of the games it describes. Also, the statement that Nintendo doesn't care about the story isn't an argument, and it doesn't prove anything.

Of course it means something. Taking a timeline that the company in question themselves hardly cared about in the first place highlights just how silly it is to base a game's choice of the sex of the the playable character on from lore that Nintendo will probably follow halfway anyway.

The branching occurs following ocarina of time.

And why exactly can the timeline not branch off at any other point in the Zelda series?

The goddess doesn't reincarnate at random. She chose to be reincarnated as a mortal.

And what if the Goddess chose to be reincarnated into something not mortal. That is the question I presented to you.

Zelda's entire existence hinges on her being reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. Hylia chose to take mortal form, she chose it to be as Zelda. Hylia and Zelda are no the same being. That being said, you confuse, again, being the reincarnation of Hylia and being the bearer of the triforce of wisdom. While it is likely that have the soul of a god gave Zelda a slight advantage in the wisdom department, these things are not explicitly linked in any way. The triforce of wisdom chose Zelda because she embodied wisdom above the other virtues and possessed it in great amount.

So you say Hylia and Zelda are two different beings yet Zelda's entire existence rests on whether or not Hylia decides to take a human form. Which would mean that Zelda and Hylia are the same people because if one's entire existence on said universe hinges on whenever Hylia decides to be human would mean that Zelda is simply a vessel and thus not really a person because she is simply a human costume.

And once again, if the triforces decided that Zelda was the embodiment of Wisdom and give her it's powers that would basically imply that you can have an entire Legend of Zelda game where neither Link, Ganon, or Zelda have the triforce pieces. Which would mean Link could very well be female if the devs wanted it to be.

The timeline only branches at OoT, and the events that occur after are known.

And as I've stated before, what the heck is stopping Nintendo from making a game that features another timeline deviation?

As a side point, you wouldn't want Link (by which I mean the hero), the oafish and simple, as a ruler.

You aren't really using your creative juices. If Link was destined to be the ruler of Hyrule, then it would stand to reason that he was taught and raised to become that proper ruler in the same way Zelda was. He wouldn't be a "simpleton" because he would never of had the background to be such a person to begin with.

It is not his role in destiny, it is not in his blood, and not what his traits are groomed for.

Which again is all of your opinion first off, and secondly traits? What traits? Personality traits? Courage? Yeah, a lot of people got courage to spare in Hyrule.

A king needs much more than courage.

A Queen also needs a lot more than wisdom yet that hasn't stopped Zelda from being the ruler of Hyrule.

It is entirely possible Nintendo will announce the game tomorrow that features a female "Link" in which case that would add to the canon, and require quite a bit of revisionism, but, as it stands, that is rather unlikely.

So what exactly is the problem here? All OP asked is if people are fine with a female Link and everyone gets up in arms and start using timeline reasons for why this can't happen just to conclude in the end that nothing is set in stone. The
Which is basically what most of the supporters for female Link have been saying anyway. Nintendo can just slap another "alternate timeline" add female Link and call it a day.
The only downside that will come from that are people mistaking their creative liberties as "political correctness" agendas, people claiming feminazis forced them to do it, or being just plain angry because their white, male, hero is now a girl. (The same people who would be mad if Link was made black, brown, or anything not resembling a white person.)

Again, everyone in this thread, please use the Lore and your own reasoning, there is no point in having wars over conjecture when we have all the evidence readily available.

So basically your telling everyone who supports female Link fans to shush because as far as I'm conerned it is only the opposition that is really using the timeline to a "T" to tell supporters of a female Link that they are wrong and stupid for wanting a female Link in the first place.

 

[Korten12]

Sidenote: Are there other characters to whom this would apply? Where gender/race/sexuality/etc are so insignificant that changing them would leave the overall character unscathed? Off the top of my head: Chell(Portal), Master Chief (Halo) and Kirby (well, Kirby).

Master Chief actually has a full fleshed out personality, backstory, and likes and dislikes. Unlike the others, he can't be changed.

OT: No, I'm against it. Why change Link when you can make a game with Zelda as the main? That would be fair more interesting than just gender swapping Link.

 

[Asita]

Well if you pay attention to the timeline Skyward Sword is where she is stated to be a goddess reincarnated. All alternate timelines branch off of that one. This is stated at the beginning of the timeline before any branching occurs and all branches come from that.

However, that said, what do you guys think reincarnation is? A soul (the thing that makes you, you and me, me) is transferred from one body to a new one. If you are not the reincarnation of the goddess you are not Zelda. That is either true of a character or not. Alternate timelines wont effect that. Your soul is your soul. Without souls, no reincarnation. I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that.

Problem is that you're invoking a premise that is not a given. Each Zelda is a different character with few obvious connections to one another. That Zelda in Skyward Sword is the reincarnation of a goddess does not immediately translate to Zelda in A Link to the Past being a reincarnation of that same goddess unless you can establish that the Zelda of A Link to the Past is the reincarnation of the Zelda in Skyward Sword. The same principle holds true for Link. While this is often implied to some extent, Twilight Princess throws a monkey wrench into the idea by having the Hero of Time's spirit persist in the world through the events of the game (That spirit who teaches you new moves? Strongly implied to be Ocarina of Time Link in game, flat out stated to be so in Hyrule Historia) thereby making a clear break in any hypothetical reincarnation chain, establishing that the reincarnation relation between installments is not a hard and fast rule that must be adhered to.

Even then, the use of such logic to imply that reincarnation is a gender-locked process doesn't actually follow at all, as the process very rarely implies anything of the sort, in fiction or religion. The identification of one of the Zeldas as the incarnation of a goddess adds nothing to the argument; partially due to the longstanding convention of giving deities in fiction a very fluid concept of sex and gender, and partially because that idea in fiction is based off of real life precedent with religion. Loki fathered Narfi and/or Nari, Fenrir, Jörmungandr, and Hel and mothered Sleipnir, and Vishnu had a female avatar in the form of Mohini...to say nothing of the gods of Hinduism merging into dual sexed entities like Ardhanarisvara. By a similar token on the reincarnation front we have the recent musings of the Dalai Lama that his next reincarnation might well be female (and somewhat implying that the reason none of his prior [supposed] reincarnations had been female was because the world wouldn't have accepted them and the Dalai Lama's nature would naturally steer towards the 'most beneficial' form it could). On no front is there actually a solid reason why either Zelda's connection to the goddess or her presumed nature as a reincarnation of a prior life would gender lock future incarnations. What's worse is that even ignoring all of this, an argument focusing on why Zelda "must be gender locked" is ultimately irrelevant to what the argument is actually trying to prove: that Link rather than Zelda is necessarily gender locked, which is an iffy proposition at best even before we see the manifestation of the Hero of Time's spirit as a separate entity in Twilight Princess.

 

[garcian67]

So basically your telling everyone who supports female Link fans to shush because as far as I'm conerned it is only the opposition that is really using the timeline to a "T" to tell supporters of a female Link that they are wrong and stupid for wanting a female Link in the first place.

I don't understand why you insist on seeing derision and anger in my posts. I am in no way being condescending, nor am I denying anyone's right to have an opinion. I myself in my very first post said a female link wouldn't be an unwelcome change, just an odd choice for a long running series.

I have laid out, using strictly in-universe canon, themes, and chronology why a female link would be incongruous with the established LoZ story. In return, people reply with straight conjecture.

Of course it means something. Taking a timeline that the company in question themselves hardly cared about in the first place highlights just how silly it is to base a game's choice of the sex of the the playable character on from lore that Nintendo will probably follow halfway anyway.


And why exactly can the timeline not branch off at any other point in the Zelda series?


And what if the Goddess chose to be reincarnated into something not mortal. That is the question I presented to you.


And once again, if the triforces decided that Zelda was the embodiment of Wisdom and give her it's powers that would basically imply that you can have an entire Legend of Zelda game where neither Link, Ganon, or Zelda have the triforce pieces. Which would mean Link could very well be female if the devs wanted it to be.


And as I've stated before, what the heck is stopping Nintendo from making a game that features another timeline deviation?

None of these statements follow the lore, many of them are "what-if" scenarios which, since what we know about LoZ is only what Nintendo has shown us. It is simply impossible to answer what would follow should one of your statements occur. What would happen if Hylia chose to be reincarnated as something other than a mortal? No idea, because it has never happened. Why can't the timeline branch off at another point? Nothing saying it can't, but it hasn't been shown to.

Your conjecture is, by it's speculative nature, unanswerable. It is impossible to have a discussion about it because there is no precedent with which to draw conclusions. I would appreciate if you would confine your statements to those which have bearing on the subject. Taking all this time to answer repeated posts containing next to no fact supported arguments is entirely counter productive and merely wastes all of our time.

So basically your telling everyone who supports female Link fans to shush because as far as I'm conerned it is only the opposition that is really using the timeline to a "T" to tell supporters of a female Link that they are wrong and stupid for wanting a female Link in the first place.

Again, for clarity: I have said no such thing. Also, there is no "opposition", we are not competing here, we are discussing something over which none of us have any control. Not once have I told "supporters" (again, there are not two sides here, this is creating a false choice and is a logical fallacy) they are wrong, or stupid. The only statements I have made are those strictly from the Lore and further clarifying statements when someone quotes one of my posts and questions the reasoning.


What I have done, at every point in this thread, is attempted to elevate the discussion above conjecture, to a proper discussion comparing fact-supported opinions on their own merits. Instead, we get dragged into side conversations like this, which serve no purpose towards our goal.

Once more I implore everyone to find examples in the source material that support your positions. Simply stating baseless facts back and forth changes nothing, proves nothing, and wastes everyone's time.

 

[Manji187]

Either Zelda/ Sheik or a new female character would be more interesting instead of some sort of Ranma 1/2 shenanigans.

It's shenanigans because the developer would have to go out of his way to explain to players why, in story terms, Link is a girl this time around. Contrived "just roll with it" scenarios are likely to ensue.

 

[Olas]

Okay, first of all I'm far more familiar with Zelda lore than you probably think. I'm maybe not quite as invested as you are, but I'm not some outsider looking in, so there's no need to tell me that I'm too ignorant to understand you or that I need to educate myself

In now way did I call you ignorant. I have no idea of your knowledge of the lore, as you have never made an argument, citing examples from the lore, that includes the LoZ universe in a substantive way.

You told me I should read up on Zelda lore. Your exact words were:

"Please, I implore you, read some LoZ lore, digest it, make your own arguments from the source material."

So excuse me for misinterpreting that as a statement on my knowledge of the series.

Okay, with that out of the way I'll respond to your arguments

Please respond to the arguments I made in the post where I actually argued, most of what you have quoted as fallacy have been clarifying statements not designed to stand on their own, but act in conjunction with my other post.

What arguments? Your gigantic post was more an analysis on themes you believed you had found in the series than any sort of straightforward argument. For some reason you decided to apply gender stereotypes to these themes so as to explain why Zelda and Link had to be female and male respectively.

If you'll recall I already challenged that point, saying it's borderline sexist to imply that only a woman could embody wisdom and only a man could embody courage.

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

This point is where our disagreement is, apparently. Zelda, in any game (except maybe spirit tracks, never played that one so no clue) is always Hylia.

According to who? You? That sounds like an assumption you've made?

That assumption also brings up the problem of what happens when Zelda births a daughter, because both mother and daughter should inherit the Hylian power, yet they're alive at the same time. Are they somehow both Hylia?

Anyway, even if this were to be true, I still don't believe it necessitates that Zelda always be female. And even if it DID, that wouldn't necessitate Link being male.

Just as Link always possesses the spirit of the hero, and Ganon/Gannon is Demise's malice given form. This is nigh on indisputable, as laid down, explicitly, in skyward sword.

It seems like there's a difference between being possessed by a spirit, and actually being the literal reincarnation of a goddess, which is what you are claiming every Zelda is.

I fully agree that Link and Ganon possess a spiritual connection to their former incarnations, as evidenced by them having the triforce of courage and power, and I don't believe that Zelda is any different.

The second is the long standing connection between feminine and divine.

What are you even talking about? Gods can be male or female. In some cultures certain genders may be more attributed to divinity than others but what does that matter to the Zelda series or the matter at hand?

This connection between femininity and divinity is explicit in the LoZ universe, which is what I was referring to. At no point did I bring in outside cultures. If you would like to refute the point that femininity and divinity are equated in LoZ, please present evidence.

How can I present evidence that something doesn't exist? I can't prove a negative. That's like trying to disprove God, or bigfoot. You're the one asserting a claim, the burden of proof lies on you. Yes it's true that there are lots of female characters in Zelda who are also divine or connected to divinity, but that doesn't mean that femininity itself is devine.

It seems like you're taking a bunch of old cultural stereotypes and treating them like they're some sort of unbending set of rules for how a fictional story is allowed to work.

Again, at no point have I brought in outside cultures. The only rules a story has are the ones it sets for itself, and it is those rules which I am arguing from.

I would appreciate you doing the same.

I'm not trying to bring anything outside the series into it. I only assumed that you were because you kept claiming that femininity and divinity were closely connected, which is true in some pagan religions and cultures, but not in Zelda as far as I can tell.

Anyway, my point is that you can't take these general conceits and treat them like unbending rules laying out what can or can't happen in a Zelda game. When an archetype becomes worn out from overuse it can sometimes be good to turn it on its head. That's why I think a female Zelda would bring some energy to the series.

Would you describe Sheik as being timid and weak? Would you describe Tetra as being timid and weak? Zelda has often appeared as strong and independent throughout the series, and I don't think her entire character and personality immediately changes the minute she puts on different clothes. In most of the Zelda games I've played she actively helps Link fight Ganondorf, often by firing arrows at him with Link's bow. Of course none of this has anything to do with the gender of the characters, I just thought it was something to point out.

Sheik is Zelda's power focused into action. I ask you though, why she didn't use this power to prevent Ganon's rise to power? It is because she lacked courage, as explained in link's first talk with Zelda in OoT. Indeed, she has more than enough influence to stop ganon in those early years, as shown by the timeline branch where link succeeds, returns to the past, warns Zelda, and thereby presents Ganon's rise. Zelda didn't do this on her own, because she lacked the courage. She didn't act soon enough and bad things occurred. This, if you are familiar with LoZ lore, is the entire story.

I don't think stopping the (arguably) most powerful being in Hyrule is a fair requirement for proving that one has courage. Ganon can only be stopped by the power of the triforce, but he's special. I'm talking about one's general personality, not the magical forces they have locked away inside their hand. Anyone can have courage, Link has the triforce of Courage but that doesn't mean he's the only person in all of Hyrule to have any courage. Zelda has proven in many instances that she can be a bold, daring character
At the very least she isn't always "timid and weak" like you described.

Vice versa there are certainly instances where Link appears cowardly. (see anytime he encounters a redead)

Please, if you disagree, find examples in the lore that prove your points, find inconsistencies between my reasoning and the themes of the series, don't just quote this post and say "it doesn't explain why fem link can't exist" because it doesn't. That's not the purpose of this post. I explained, at considerable length, why a fem link would strain credulity when viewed through the established canon. Those are the arguments that should be debunked, not these side conversations about confounding factors with little overall bearing on the subject.

In other words, If you think I'm wrong (as you seem to) explain how the series shows this. As that is the entirety of this discussion, what is shown in the series and thus what can be justified.

That's what I'm trying to do, however it's difficult when you're so vague and longwinded about what your points actually are. Plus you're asking me to provide evidence and examples when the burden of proof really does lay on you to explain why a female Link can't happen. It's hard to provide evidence of something NOT being true.

Not to mention the fact that you yourself have rarely provided any sort of specific examples to back up your points. I'm still waiting to see the evidence that every single Zelda is the reincarnation of Hylia.