Poll: Would you date a transgendered person?

[Buffoon]

I would not. For me the psychological barrier would just be too much. Which is a pity, really, as it narrows the field, and frankly the number of people who could tolerate me as a partner is pretty limited already

 

[Spy_Guy]

Personally, I'd rather avoid the problem outright by imposing laws that reconstructed genitals must be marked with a tattoo, or similar.

Or maybe transexuals should wear a badge.

Spoiler: Large image

For the good of everyone else, ya?

You seem to have missed the reasoning behind this. I see no reason to ostracize transpeople, however I believe that if they end up in a sexual relationship with a person, then that person has the right to know of their status as such.
If they had been open about it in the first place, this should not come as a surprise or matter to whoever they are with... and if they haven't been open about it, well, shame on them.

However, unlike your example of people being branded for being a certain way [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodwinsLaw], there is a biological difference between born males/females and FTMs/MTFs.

To quote Wikipedia:

Many people also see "sex change" as factually inaccurate.[3] Sex in humans is usually determined by four factors:

• 
  [li]Chromosomes[/li]
  [li]Gonads (Ovaries and/or testicles)[/li]
  [li]Hormone status[/li]
  [li]Primary sex characteristics, sometimes also secondary sex characteristics[/li]

Not all of these factors can be changed, however:

• 
  [li]Chromosomes cannot be changed.[/li]
  [li]Gonads can be removed, but not replaced[/li]
  [li]Hormone status is easily changed[/li]
  [li]Existing secondary sex characteristics can to some extent be changed; existing ones mostly through surgery, non-existing ones can be induced to grow through hormones.[/li]

Comparing a relatively non-intrusive marker to the star Jews wore during the Holocaust is shaky at best, especially considering that I'm not proposing we ship them off to camps and gas them. I'm just requesting a bit of honesty, really.

-snip-


So, let me ask you a question:

Do you think it's morally sound to enter into a relationship with someone and not telling them that you weren't born as your current gender?

-snip-

And it isn't a shame that the burden to spread this information should fall on your shoulders. You are the person who doesn't like trans people, it's your responsibility to inform people of your insecurities. Just because it might be slightly inconvienient for the priviledged majority, doesn't mean you should be able to pass the burden onto a minority, especially when that burden is much greater (revealing you're trans > revealing your insecure)

I took the liberty of fixing the formatting in the above quote, I hope you don't mind.

First of all, let me tell you that I find that condescending attitude rather offensive. I think there are better ways to get your point across than to argue ad hominem, don't you agree?

With that out of the way, I'd like to argue that you chose to become part of the minority in question and chances are you knew that some things just are never going to be the same as it is for people like me or my girlfriend.

I personally find it distressing that people these days have no way of knowing if someone is a biological male or female and actually have to stoop to asking. I don't think it should be a surprise that a lot of people might overlook asking on account of not having all their bases covered, yet still not want to date a transperson.

In that case, it would fall to you to not waste their time, or yours.

We live in a world where trans people are judged for not passing as their gender, but then when they do pass as their gender, they are called out for trying to "trick" people.

By looking like someone who might be able to give the person a long-term relationship and the possibility of giving them children, yet knowing from the start that they cannot.
Also by looking like something they are not, I believe they're their biological gender in disguise.

As has previously been mentioned here, it's not possible to turn a man into a woman, or vice versa, but they can be made to look the part (see my quote from Wikipedia above)

...yes, they are trying to "trick" people.

Look, let's imagine a dating profile. On this dating profile the person says they are interested in women. A MTF transperson should be able to apply to this dating profile without revealing she is trans, because that profile's only specification was that the partner had to be a woman, and MTF people are women.

Sure, an MTF who feels like they could apply can feel free to do so. Then again, if they say that they are MTF and ask if that's alright at some point that could save both parties a lot of headaches and time.
Plus, if the person who put the profile up doesn't mind isn't that the best outcome for the both of these people?
The transperson doesn't have to worry and there's no risk that the one who put up the profile is going to get a nasty surprise one day.

Don't you think it's better to just come out with that sort of thing ASAP, to save both of them the trouble?

It's quite selfish to think "It's very private to me and they don't need to know" because in my mind I interpret that as:

Me getting laid > The other person's feelings.

Is this a misunderstanding on my behalf, and if so, could you explain what it is instead?

 

[Ledan]

*snip*
Gender duality doesn't exist but theres a sliding scale of masculine and femenine which can be considered a ratio. It's like saying gay people are just lying to themselves about what they are and pretending.

Please provide further arguments for the sliding scale of gender. I understand that people can be more masculine or feminine (please use auto correct), but that does not affect their gender. Masculine men and feminine men are both male. Sexual orientation does not have to do with gender. Homosexual and heterosexual men are both male, and both can be feminine or masculine. As of yet I see no argument that would change one's classification from male to female.

Indeed it appears you can't stand anyone having a different view from yours, and you are being immature, inconsiderate and obnoxious.

Please, have a different view. Have a happy life. Go have sex with whoever you want, marry whoever you want. It's your life. I am not trying to impose my opinion over others, and in comparison to my opposition I have been far more tolerant and mature than them.
I am only debating the argument that transgender people are not the sex of which they identify. A male is always male. His cultural identification does not change it, nor does his sexual orientation. Nor does his masculinity or femininity. There are all kinds of men and women, but men and women they are.

What you accused Montezuma's Lawyer of doing is exactly what you just did, making everything you have said as invalid as anything else. I may disagree or have my own views, but i am neither gay or a transgender, and i expect neither are you, nor have you done any serious scientific study into the area, in neurology or i expect biology deeper than photosynthesis.

Again with the random judgment. I've studied biology extensively, and I have a deep interest in psychology. I do not declare myself an expert in either field, but as of yet I have not encountered an argument beyond the scope of what I know.

Biology is an interesting thing as there is no defined rule for anything that is absolute and exceptions always exist, right down to the ratio of various hormones that control gender and how the mind is wired for gender.

Ah! And now we come to the crux of the argument. I do not agree that there is no defined rule for anything in biology, nor that nothing is absolute. Many things are not, and the biology as a science would not work without these absolutes, but some biological topics are as you say not set in stone. But that is not the crux.
The crux is that the brain is not wired for gender. Now the ratio of hormones in your body does affect your sex, just as your DNA has a large say in it. Biology is very messy, because we like to categorize life which doesn't care about our categories. Hermaphrodites are of course an example of how sex isn't just XX and XY.
Femininity and masculinity does not affect your gender. Your brain is not pre-wired for a specific gender, and there is no evidence for this.

If a man undergoes the operation and lives a much happier, fuller life how they want...how can you call them out on it and call them false pretenders and not be offensive?

Again, I'm not against them having a happy life. I wish for them to have a happy life. Live it however you want. When it comes to the philosophical and scientific issue of their gender, they are still male. They have not changed it.
I'm equally happy for people who undergo operations to look like cats, lizards, or vampires. They understand that they are not cats, lizards, or vampires. Society does not need to treat them like cats, lizards or vampires. They can of course believe whatever they want, but there is no scientific evidence that a transgender person is of another gender. They are men who culturally identify with female culture, probably rather feminine (but there are women who are very masculine, so it would be unfair of me to say that all transgender males are feminine in their mannerisms). None of these people should be discriminated against, but none of them have changed their gender, sex or species.

You are the kind of person that propagates your bullshit Black and White argument with people who agree with your argument, it's called LikeThink and it doesn't make it any less Bullshit.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say... So i only argue with people who agree with me? Well that's not true. I'm trying to argue with you, debate and come to some sort of conclusion, either where I'm wrong, you are wrong, or we both agree that we need more evidence.

Enjoy the utter contempt anybody who isn't a bigot will look at you with.

Because believing that no transgender person should be discriminated against is bigoted, right? (In case my opinion isn't clear: TRANSGENDER PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE TOO AND SHOULD NOT BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST IN ANY MANNER OR FORM. THEY HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS EVERYONE ELSE, AND SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO PURSUE A HAPPY LIFE).
I'm only debating that a transgender male does not qualify as a female. He is a transgender male, not a female who was once male. You can have loads of different types of males, with varying sexual orientations, varying degrees of masculinity and femininity, varying beliefs and opinions, different in almost every way. All of them are men.
For all those comparing me to thinking that black people are inferior to whites, I disagree. My argument is on the same level as saying that skin color affects how much the sun burns you.

 

[Ledan]

Male here. I would NOT date a MTF (or FTM for that matter). Romance is out of the question if my significant other has a Y chromosome. Nothing personal.

You might want to check quite a few women then - the XXY genetic mutation actually results in females...

False- Y is dominant over double XX. XXY results in males.

 

[MartianWarMachine]

>.>

<.<

Yup.

Ex-um-bits! You're here! And alive! YAY! *Huggles and cuddles and squeezes and snuggles* ^w^

So many walls of angry text from all sides. Makes my brain hurt.

D=

*Massages brain* =3

 

[ezaviel]

Only very recently it was declassified as a mental illness. So irregardless as to what it "fits into" it's not a mental disorder anymore. BDD could be anyone who has a body life after loosing weight, or a face lift that changed their appearance. or breast augmentation, to me those are all drastic.

Actually if you read the definition they wouldn't fit. The fact that they have to specifically state "except for GR surgery" and they don't have to for the rest shows even the authors were clear that GR fit into the BDD definition, or should have if not for current trends.

We don't consider it a "trend", we consider it to be a different issue.

To quote the DSM IV:
"here the concern is secondary to the patient?s conviction either that he is actually a female and that his penis is a mistake or, conversely, that she is actually a male and that her breasts are a mistake."

You make it sound like the DSM is just trying to be PC about the issue. Which is not the case.

/is a registered psychologist

 

[Stephanos132]

If they were upfront about it, I'd be polite but I would not pursue it any further. Such matters are not to my tastes.

 

[Batou667]

Grr! Argh!

The Opinion Police strikes again!

I'm not bigotted, unlike a bigot I'm willing to read what people have to say; but I completely reserve the right to listen to what you have to say AND reject it as unscientific, or biased, or whatever.

At the moment, the trans-acceptance argument seems to hinge not on scientific issues but on social issues. "I'm a woman now, play along with my fantasy or I'll be offended at you!" And you know what? Nine times out of ten, I'd probably find myself "playing along" out of courtesy. I'm not a complete monster in real life, I don't take it upon myself to crush people's harmess delusions (whether it's Santa Claus, God, or pretending to be a woman). But when push comes to shove, I just CAN'T reconcile it within myself to say that black is white and up is down just for the sake of ingratiating myself with the most liberal-thinking member of the group. Like I said, if that offends you, I'm sorry - but as you correctly deduced, I'm also unapologetic about my position.

Counter-example: If I painted myself dark brown and started speaking with a Nigerian accent, that wouldn't make me African. If people pointed out that I was a deluded white geek with make-up they wouldn't be wrong, or bigotted, or hateful, or insecure in their own race. And what's more, I could be offended til the cows come home, and I still wouldn't be African.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

It is obviously a problem. Any evolutionary benefit homosexuality may have had, and it may not have even had any, is no longer relevant. People are too stuck in their PC mindset to step outside and look at what they are. And deviation from heterosexuality is an error and should be fixed. People argue about gay rights when in reality the problem IS homosexuality.

I mean you say its not a choice, your born that way, so its obviously something that can be fixed when we find the right variables. But this generation is too engrained in PC and afraid to think so maybe the next generation will realize, hey, this is not how my body is supposed to work and I would like it to be fixed, what can we do about this? People make homosexuality who they are rather than a part of them, so they can never let go of it.

Doesn't matter really, I mean how many people who are afflicted by this would take a pill to stop it? I'm sure a lot of people hate they are homosexual or w/e. And in 50yrs once people stop being PC retards they will find a cure for it and this will be archived in libraries where few people even know about. I'd almost be willing to vote for gay rights to accelerate the process.

Alright lets deal with this.

Why is it a problem? A lot of things have NO evolutionary benefit, you liking ANYTHING that isnt food, sex, shelter or science has NO evolutionary benefit. Why does liking firefly help you? It doesnt. It isnt helpfull to the species so you shouldnt like it. Apparently.

Homosexuality ISNT a problem at all. You can see it as an error sure but WHY does it need to be fixed. Why? What is SO URGENT about making sure we maximise the number of sexuality active members in our now HUGELY RISING population? Why is it an issue we dont have enough? For it to be a problem it needs to cause HARM. Outline the HARM it does.

My friends who are gay LIKE being gay and thats awesome! Who CARES if he likes it? Why do YOU? Why do you care at all? Why not let him be happy with who he is and stop talking about it like homosexuality is going to cause society to come crashing down around us? Why does it hurt you so?

I am no PC retard. I just KNOW that in a modern free society people should be allowed to be who they are and be happy with it without being told they are a "problem" irrationally by bigots hiding behind the flimsey rhetoric of "PC" to make up for their lack of conviction behind a hateful and intollerent point of view.

And suddenly YOU define how a body is MEANT to work? What is "right" to be? Is it "RIGHT" to be white? Black? Have blue eyes? Whats RIGHT for my body to be? Its not up to you to decide how we should ALL be like according to your perfect arian standards of what humans should be. And thank fuck for that. People can be whatever they want. The only reason we are fighting errors like downs syndrome and bad eyesight is because people dont LIKE having these things. People LIKE being gay. A good error? Impossible, its a good thing for someone to be happy with what they are.

 

[Something Amyss]

If you're born as a male then feel like you should be a female, you're the one choosing to change into a female so it is essentially a lifestyle choice, in the same way homosexuality is. oh and before you say i'm insulting anyone else, I love people for who they truly are, regardless of gender. I just feel that someone who is transgender isn't completely true.

I love people for who they truly are, but dismiss serious issues as "lifestyle choices" anyway.

Huh. Kinda incongruous.

Now if you want to argue about this then please argue about it to someone else.

"Hey guys, don't point out that what I'm saying is ridiculous."

 

[Phoenixlight]

Absolutely not no, no fucking way. It's sick how some people change gender.

 

[Something Amyss]

People are too stuck in their PC mindset to step outside and look at what they are. And deviation from heterosexuality is an error and should be fixed. People argue about gay rights when in reality the problem IS homosexuality.

I love trotting out the PC bogeyman as a pre-emptive strike right before saying something that really is closed-minded and bigoted. Sorry, man, I'm sure you believe it, but disagreeing with you is not inherently PC.

We're not a PC culture, we're a borderline sociopath culture. Sorry.

 

[sinterklaas]

I could not. Unless I didn't know that my partner was trans, but that wouldn't really be a healthy relationship, would it?

Regardless, love works in strange ways and an exception could always be made.

And for the record, there is nothing wrong with being trans, sure, it may even be an 'illness' or whatever, but that doesn't make it any less real. Plus it's uncurable and the change in gender doesn't harm anyone so I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

[xmbts]

Reading through this forum, I consistently see the argument: "I was born with a y brain into an x body". We both agree this is not a factual statement. I fully agree that they are identifying with the cultural/social construct of the gender their biological sex isn't. There is nothing wrong with that.

Actually it is a factual statement, Those brain imaging things showed that a transgendered persons brain reacts to stimuli in the same way as the gender they identify with rather then their birth gender.

Just throwing that out there. >.>

 

[s0p0g]

i am not really sure, as the only mtf i know is a friend of mine
but i *could* imagine that if a woman "turns out" to be a mtf, and she was interesting and i liked her and all before i got to know that, why not.
not sure about it, but hell.

 

[MartianWarMachine]

Reading through this forum, I consistently see the argument: "I was born with a y brain into an x body". We both agree this is not a factual statement. I fully agree that they are identifying with the cultural/social construct of the gender their biological sex isn't. There is nothing wrong with that.

Actually it is a factual statement, Those brain imaging things showed that a transgendered persons brain reacts to stimuli in the same way as the gender they identify with rather then their birth gender.

Just throwing that out there. >.>

Watch where you're throwing, you almost hit me!

...But as long as we're throwing stuff...

*Throws a year's worth of hugs at you* ^-^

 

[Kennetic]

No, without question. I could not do it. The fact that someone used to be a dude/chick is literally the only thought going through my head when I meet a transsexual. It isn't something I can get passed. I don't know why. I am a terrible person >.>

I like to think myself an open-minded person, but I clearly hit the limits of that quickly.

That doesn't make you a terrible person. You can't expect people to be completely open-minded about something as strange as gender changes since it's not something you generally encounter on a daily basis.

 

[MartianWarMachine]

Yes.

You kinda... need to add more to your post... =/

 

[Kroxile]

uh, no, I wouldn't. Because how can I potentially love and trust someone who is a walking lie?

 

[CrystalShadow]

MTF people are women.

No, they aren't. They like to call themselves that and they feel that, but they are no more a woman than an 85lb anorexic is fat. Both may believe it with all their heart, but its still not true.

I assume you consider yourself a straight man. For the sake of argument, lets assume you believe this. Well, you're not. You're in fact a homosexual, no matter how much you claim to be straight, you cant change the fact that you're gay. You are not straight, nor will you ever be straight. You may believe it with all your heart, but its still not true.

How does it feel to be treated this way?

Your assumption about me is about as far from correct as possible lol.

But, assuming for the moment I was a straight man in that scenario... your comparison is silly. Only you can say what you feel emotionally, I don't deny that trans people feel the way they do. The question of changing sex however is physical and can be verified by medical examination. Their gender didn't change. Their chromosomes didn't change. They just had cosmetic surgery and hormones to mimic what they would like to be.

snip

I don't think he knows bodubuilders taking steroids will develop breasts and lactate. I expect he is also 12.

Breasts are a secondary sexual characteristic, and do not determine whether a person is male of female. Genetically transgenders are still their original gender, physically they are transgender. That is why they have that word, it is a qualifier, like black, white, Hebrew, Christian.

It has been disproven that there is a difference between a male to female transsexual and a female on a genetic level. While this may not be every case, it only needs one exception to disprove flawed logic, and there have been exceptions.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Mind explaining this part a bit more?

Certainly. Under the rules of logic, it only takes a single exception to disprove a rule. If you say something like "All Bings are Bongs" then it only takes one example where a Bing is not a Bong to disprove that rule.

Kendarik argued that MtF transsexuals may say they are women, but will never be women, and is inferring this is a case for all MtF transsexuals. This is a gross overgeneralization, since I have already stated the case of the sheer diversity of the transgender community, to which the poll refers to, of which transsexuals are actually a subset, even though the causes of transsexuality are just as equally just as diverse.

Thus, as long as one example exists where there isn't a genetic difference between a female a male to female transsexual, I can logically refute Kendarik's argument. Such an example does indeed exist.

There is a condition based on the inability of the body to register certain sex hormones. It exists in both a form which fails to register androgens (male sex hormones) and gynogens (female sex hormones) the result is that regardless of the sex chromosomes the person actually has, this insensitivity will cause the individual to grow either female or male, respectively. It is not unheard of for patients suffering from this condition to become transsexual, albeit with some difficulty, since the hormonal insensitivity is an obvious issue that needs working around.

Thus, you have a male to female transsexual who is genetically identical to a genetic female. At least, genetically identical as far as the sex chromosomes are concerned. It could be argued they are not exactly genetically identical, but unless you are expecting to be dealing with genetically identical twins, chances are any argument based on this level of genetically identical subjects is going to be virtually impossible.

That said, given the nature of shared environments in the womb and hormonal imbalances, identical twins do actually tend to result in a slightly increased number of homosexual males and male to female transsexuals. There's not enough samples to do a real study on this though.

Except that anyone with XY chromosomes is genetically male, even if they are born with female sexual organs

Wow. I could go on and on with the inane logic this thread presents...

It is of course inevitable, because there is no proper definition of male & female that isn't circular.

So many people seem to want to argue that 'You are a woman if you were born as one', or something logically equivalent.

Yet, the boils down to the definitions being:
You are a man if you are a man
And...
You are a woman if you are a woman...

Which are empty, meaningless statements.

... As for being genetically male? What relevance does this have to anything whatsoever?
It's like some magical definition that has no grounding in reality.

Consider an architect that designs a building.
This person creates a set of drawing showing what the building is supposed to look like, and some blueprints...

And hands it over to the contractors who actually have the task of building what the architect designed.

However, being somewhat indifferent to the plans they've been given, and having their own ideas, they build something quite different to what the plans said they should have.

Now... Upon inspecting the finished building, and comparing it to the plans, it's found they don't actually match.
So... If you were the inspector, and had to describe this building, would you claim the building is actually consistent with the original plans, despite obvious evidence to the contrary?

Or, to give a slightly different example, let's say an old building has had extensive renovations done.

Let's say it was a hotel, with two floors and 50 rooms...

Somewhere along the line, most of the walls were knocked through, and it's now a cinema with 5 large theatres....

Now, are you going to get the original plans for the building, go up to the building, do a comparison, then conclude, well, according to the plans it's a hotel with 50 rooms...
I know it doesn't look anything like one anymore, and people tell me it's now a cinema...

But the plans say otherwise, so clearly, those people must be wrong.

It's just beyond belief that people can make this kind of insane jump in logic, then sit there and claim it's the only true answer.

But, I've really given up expecting anyone to use logic in this matter.

"You're not really a woman"
"Why not?"
"well uh... Because..."
"So... What makes someone a woman then?"
"Um..."

Yeah. Still waiting for someone to give me a proper definition here. But clearly that's never going to happen, because any definition that is actually logically consistent is incompatible with the weird ideas people seem to want to insist as being true.

Not that anyone will pay any attention to this of course.

But, while I'm talking into the wind anyway, I might as well put up this video too...
Zinnia Jones may not always say things I agree with, but what he does say, he says clearly, and in a well thought out manner.

This video isn't directly related to the subject at hand, but it's quite clear on some very important issues.