RE:"free speech"

[More Fun To Compute]

I don't think peoples minds will change in places such as Japan were it is a very respected medium

In what way? Some games that are easy to buy in the US and UK are rated Cero Z in Japan and can only be bought under the counter. They are less on display than porn mags are here in UK stores.

 

[jackpipsam]

I don't think peoples minds will change in places such as Japan were it is a very respected medium

In what way? Some games that are easy to buy in the US and UK are rated Cero Z in Japan and can only be bought under the counter. They are less on display than porn mags are here in UK stores.

I have seen plenty of game stores in Japan and lots of people walk around with DS/PSP with pride with no hate or funny looks on them.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I have seen plenty of game stores in Japan and lots of people walk around with DS/PSP with pride with no hate or funny looks on them.

Maybe that is because they view people who play violent and pornographic games on consoles as weird and separate from people who play handheld games.

 

[DracoSuave]

maybe we could look on the pros if this happens, we could lose some very tasteless games e.g Manhunt (but is that Rockstar North or not I forgot). also we could find better ways to make games such as braid. indie devs may get the breakthrough there after. after all wouldn't ban ALL games. only the ones witch "have no value". maybe if a game has lots of moral reasons behind it then a game like that could go though.

Bullhonky.

Here's the problem in a nutshell.

State passes a law stating that a form of entertainment is not protected under free speech. This makes it so that companies that seek to distribute entertainment need to make sure it's properly sanitized under government mandate. Elements that are 'anti-social' can be censored.

This, in turn, gives that government control over what entertainment can say or not say. Anti-social could mean pornography, or violence, but could also include political ideologies that are opposite to the regime in charge. See; McCarthyism. This means that elements of videogames get undue scrutiny, driving costs of video games that market to the US up as they attempt to sanitize them. It means higher costs -globally-.

Look at the videogame market in Australia. They have a simple control... games cannot exist in Australia above a certain age limit. They simply cannot be sold. This makes the process of getting video games into Australia a lot longer, and it drives the costs up, which is bad for the consumer.

The funny thing is... it won't make games better. Companies that make shovelware now will continue to make shovelware... putting restrictions will not make their games better. Companies that make good games now, however, will more often run afoul of censors, and will find themselves trying desperately to sanitize their products...

Sure, games like Braid will be fine. But games like Silent Hill, like Heavy Rain... these games could not exist. Companies will be less inclined to push the envelope and explore the fringes of game play for adult gamers, and will instead stick to kiddy games because they'll never have to pay to remake it when the censor says no.

And with videogames, a reedit isn't just a splicing of film... it's a million dollar money pit.

The costs of games WILL go up. The number of games that push boundries and explore their genre WILL go down. Experimentation and innovation WILL go down.

 

[Albino Boo]

But the EU countries already have this law and yet the same games sell. In fact if you add up the countries that already have legally mandated age limits if far exceeds the population of the US.

EU 500
Canada 33
Australia 21
S Korea 48

total 602

US 307

Even if take into account that the greater wealth of the US, it can't represent more that 50% of the world market. I'm being conservative here, I haven't added in anyone from one of the emerging markets (or Japan, because I'm not sure of the regulations there). The global games industry already operates in the environment of legally mandated age limits without any trouble.

wrong the issue in Australia is that R games are not aloud at all. so 21 is wrong

There isn't legally mandated restriction of games in Australia? Valve sells TF2, portal and hl2 but not L4D, so its STILL SELLS GAMES THERE.

 

[TheRundownRabbit]

Dude, we Americans do not have total free speech, people claim we do but they are dirty liars.
Especially when it comes to games, lets face it, games are a farely new media form and are there fore immature to thge eyes of the people so it is more likely that people will freak out cause a game has sex or violence than a book or a show.

 

[StriderShinryu]

EDIT: I would also like to mention that this sort of farsical shite would never happen in the UK because both the queen and prime minister have and enjoy playing games (the queen has a DS and a Wii and David Cameron has a PS3)

Just as a note, the American president has a Wii too.

maybe we could look on the pros if this happens, we could lose some very tasteless games e.g Manhunt (but is that Rockstar North or not I forgot). also we could find better ways to make games such as braid. indie devs may get the breakthrough there after. after all wouldn't ban ALL games. only the ones witch "have no value". maybe if a game has lots of moral reasons behind it then a game like that could go though.

That's the biggest problem with the way this issue is being brought forward though. It's not just about the ramifications on what games will or will not get made, it's about who gets to decide that. This ruling doesn't state that only games with excessive gore or full blown sex will be restricted, it simply says that games with offensive/harmful content will be restricted (and those who actually make and/or play games aren't going to be the people making that call). Sure it will start with games like Manhunt or Postal getting restricted but once you open that door it's pretty easy to see how it will go down the line. First it's excessive violence, then maybe violence against authority figures, then violence maybe against humans, etc. and pretty soon anything but My Little Pony adventures may be facing restriction.

 

[jackpipsam]

But the EU countries already have this law and yet the same games sell. In fact if you add up the countries that already have legally mandated age limits if far exceeds the population of the US.

EU 500
Canada 33
Australia 21
S Korea 48

total 602

US 307

Even if take into account that the greater wealth of the US, it can't represent more that 50% of the world market. I'm being conservative here, I haven't added in anyone from one of the emerging markets (or Japan, because I'm not sure of the regulations there). The global games industry already operates in the environment of legally mandated age limits without any trouble.

wrong the issue in Australia is that R games are not aloud at all. so 21 is wrong

There isn't legally mandated restriction of games in Australia? Valve sells TF2, portal and hl2 but not L4D, so its STILL SELLS GAMES THERE.

Yes, but we still have 99% of games in full tack. only games like Grand Theft Auto get trimmed down. what happened with L4D2 was a very rare case of BS and can't think of any like it.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Yeah ... but I kinda agree that violent videogames shouldn't be sold to minors. I mean I wouldn't want my 8 year old going to the cinema and watching the Saw or Hostel movies.

Fact of the matter is that if we want to have p[eople see videogames as a valid artistic expression we should also agree that it's content should be restricted if found too graphic. Not unlike other forms of entertainment.

As I said ... gamers whinge that their games aren't view in the same artistic light as, say, movies ... but they want to also whinge that games should be treated as though they aren't visual entertainment?

For fuck sake ... I think we can agree that some videogames shgouldn't be played by minors shouldn't we? If only for their graphic content. At the very least I think we can all agree that it would be nice that videogames are seen in the same light as other forms of artistic expression.

Can't have it both ways fellow gamers ... if you want games to be viewed in terms of artistic expression like how film is viewed, then we must accept that like film there are certain stuff that should be removed from a child's access.

Albeit I believe if this bill was enforced it would be good for gaming. Now devs should have a good argument for "Now we can put anything in games we want without censorship because we know that legally only adults will be in receipt of them... like film and tv".

 

[mgs16925]

The question is parental responsibility and right to choose really. If a parent let's their kid read those nasty Sleeping Beauty books or watch Saw it's considered them being bad parents, but if they let their kid play manhunt then apparently it is not to most people. Apparently looking at the pictures on the back of the box is to much to ask, and it has to be regulated while no other media does in this country.

 

[jackpipsam]

Dude, we Americans do not have total free speech, people claim we do but they are dirty liars.
Especially when it comes to games, lets face it, games are a farely new media form and are there fore immature to thge eyes of the people so it is more likely that people will freak out cause a game has sex or violence than a book or a show.

true, It has happened many times before and chances are it will happen again. HOWEVER something has changed now, the interactivity. true people only look at things at one angled views e.g Carns Carman Edit (or Bully) to an "advrige" person it looks like a horrible game however really it is a quite a fine game.

who knows in say 50 years we could all be shunning some new type of media and they will be having issues and talks like this.

 

[jackpipsam]

Yeah ... but I kinda agree that violent videogames shouldn't be sold to minors. I mean I wouldn't want my 8 year old going to the cinema and watching the Saw or Hostel movies.

Fact of the matter is that if we want to have p[eople see videogames as a valid artistic expression we should also agree that it's content should be restricted if found too graphic. Not unlike other forms of entertainment.

As I said ... gamers whinge that their games aren't view in the same artistic light as, say, movies ... but they want to also whinge that games should be treated as though they aren't visual entertainment?

For fuck sake ... I think we can agree that some videogames shgouldn't be played by minors shouldn't we? If only for their graphic content. At the very least I think we can all agree that it would be nice that videogames are seen in the same light as other forms of artistic expression.

Can't have it both ways fellow gamers ... if you want games to be viewed in terms of artistic expression like how film is viewed, then we must accept that like film there are certain stuff that should be removed from a child's access.

Albeit I believe if this bill was enforced it would be good for gaming. Now devs should have a good argument for "Now we can put anything in games we want without censorship because we know that legally only adults will be in receipt of them... like film and tv".

I could not agree more, I think kids should not play GTA. regardless if it does anything to them or not. Kids are growing up too fast, for better and worse.

 

[jackpipsam]

maybe we could look on the pros if this happens, we could lose some very tasteless games e.g Manhunt (but is that Rockstar North or not I forgot). also we could find better ways to make games such as braid. indie devs may get the breakthrough there after. after all wouldn't ban ALL games. only the ones witch "have no value". maybe if a game has lots of moral reasons behind it then a game like that could go though.

Bullhonky.

Here's the problem in a nutshell.

State passes a law stating that a form of entertainment is not protected under free speech. This makes it so that companies that seek to distribute entertainment need to make sure it's properly sanitized under government mandate. Elements that are 'anti-social' can be censored.

This, in turn, gives that government control over what entertainment can say or not say. Anti-social could mean pornography, or violence, but could also include political ideologies that are opposite to the regime in charge. See; McCarthyism. This means that elements of videogames get undue scrutiny, driving costs of video games that market to the US up as they attempt to sanitize them. It means higher costs -globally-.

Look at the videogame market in Australia. They have a simple control... games cannot exist in Australia above a certain age limit. They simply cannot be sold. This makes the process of getting video games into Australia a lot longer, and it drives the costs up, which is bad for the consumer.

The funny thing is... it won't make games better. Companies that make shovelware now will continue to make shovelware... putting restrictions will not make their games better. Companies that make good games now, however, will more often run afoul of censors, and will find themselves trying desperately to sanitize their products...

Sure, games like Braid will be fine. But games like Silent Hill, like Heavy Rain... these games could not exist. Companies will be less inclined to push the envelope and explore the fringes of game play for adult gamers, and will instead stick to kiddy games because they'll never have to pay to remake it when the censor says no.

And with videogames, a reedit isn't just a splicing of film... it's a million dollar money pit.

The costs of games WILL go up. The number of games that push boundries and explore their genre WILL go down. Experimentation and innovation WILL go down.

OHH NO! NO HEAVY RAIN! (ok ok I will put away mah fanboyism for this topic)
while I agree, I still think devs will be forced in a way to try something new... or fail.
I don't know about you but I am getting bored of FPS.

 

[SonicWaffle]

true, It has happened many times before and chances are it will happen again. HOWEVER something has changed now, the interactivity. true people only look at things at one angled views e.g Carns Carman Edit (or Bully) to an "advrige" person it looks like a horrible game however really it is a quite a fine game.

OK, sorry, I couldn't let this pass. It's 'Canis Canem Edit', meaning 'dog eat dog' in Latin. Also, it's a brilliant game. It's just the fact it was named Bully that upset the kind of nobheads who get upset about such things. If you make a farming sim about growing flowers and donating to charity but call it Rapefest 5000, people will be up in arms about what a terrible rape simulator it is. The people who complain about this sort of thing never actually seem to play the game in question.

who knows in say 50 years we could all be shunning some new type of media and they will be having issues and talks like this.

That's a certainty. Remember, when the novel was first introduced, Moral Guardians reacted to it as if it was going to cause the fall of society. Eventually, the current hullabaloo will be forgotten, and it'll be holographic £D pornography that is the society-destroying evil.

 

[Mr Pantomime]

the law has already been passed in the UK, most of europe, Japan, new zealand and austrailia and with exception of the latter two it hasn't made a single iota of a difference. It simply restricts the SALE of a violent game to someone under a cirtain age, it won't stop them actually playing it if it is bought for them by a parent or guardian.

The above regions represent a not-insignificantly larger market than the USA and games are still made for and sold in these regions that are restricted (with the aforementioned exception)

Wait.Do you mean to tell me that the USA has no legal age restriction for Video Games, or other types of media?

 

[SinisterGehe]

Basically if the USA passes this then it will spread.

This is not true. I think in EU that is against the law, and In Finland it is 100%
And if something like that would be even planned in EU Germany would go running up the barricades first following the rest of us. Mainly because USA is one single culture, EU got many each of them share different views about this subject.

And on Topic:
IF USA passes this all the big companies are running off to Europe doing a "slight" damage to your economy.
Why are violent movie legal, Or books and comics containing violent material?

And on the topic of minors buying K18 games, It is stupid. The seller and the parents that buy their kids those games should be slapped nice hefty ticket... (Ofc... monitoring this is impossible)

 

[jackpipsam]

true, It has happened many times before and chances are it will happen again. HOWEVER something has changed now, the interactivity. true people only look at things at one angled views e.g Carns Carman Edit (or Bully) to an "advrige" person it looks like a horrible game however really it is a quite a fine game.

OK, sorry, I couldn't let this pass. It's 'Canis Canem Edit', meaning 'dog eat dog' in Latin. Also, it's a brilliant game. It's just the fact it was named Bully that upset the kind of nobheads who get upset about such things. If you make a farming sim about growing flowers and donating to charity but call it Rapefest 5000, people will be up in arms about what a terrible rape simulator it is. The people who complain about this sort of thing never actually seem to play the game in question.

who knows in say 50 years we could all be shunning some new type of media and they will be having issues and talks like this.

That's a certainty. Remember, when the novel was first introduced, Moral Guardians reacted to it as if it was going to cause the fall of society. Eventually, the current hullabaloo will be forgotten, and it'll be holographic £D pornography that is the society-destroying evil.

sorry, I didn't have mah game box

 

[jackpipsam]

Yes. But the US is unfortunately a large market. So if they can't buy the stuff it won't get made. Supply and demand. If 60% of your respective clientèle just stopped being able to buy your product. You change your product.

It will have a knock on effect to the rest of us.

Completely unrelated to the thread, but every time I see your posts it seems like you're on probation for something. Am I imagining this?

I've had a grant total of 3 probations. 2 of which were for low content post's. So I'd say a big old yes.

Edit: Oh wait. I forgot one.

Reason: Don\'t insult others, even in the Pulp Fiction ************ context.

So the totals 4.

I had a probation for "being obnoxious"; I cried.

OP: The recession had nothing to do with videogames. Or did it.....

Everyone! Videogames are to blame for the recession!

THE... CAKE... IS... A... LIE!

 

[DracoSuave]

OHH NO! NO HEAVY RAIN! (ok ok I will put away mah fanboyism for this topic)
while I agree, I still think devs will be forced in a way to try something new... or fail.
I don't know about you but I am getting bored of FPS.

Censorship will not make FPSs go away.

It just means that FPSs will be less likely to go beyond the norm. No more BioShock. No more Half Life 2.

Just an endless wake of shovelware fpss that stay 'family friendly' by having no gore or message.

 

[jackpipsam]

OHH NO! NO HEAVY RAIN! (ok ok I will put away mah fanboyism for this topic)
while I agree, I still think devs will be forced in a way to try something new... or fail.
I don't know about you but I am getting bored of FPS.

Censorship will not make FPSs go away.

It just means that FPSs will be less likely to go beyond the norm. No more BioShock. No more Half Life 2.

Just an endless wake of shovelware fpss that stay 'family friendly' by having no gore or message.

I could see them having an issue with Bioshock, but maybe not HL2. but then again to them all games are "the work of the devil"