Red Dead Redemption Upsets the Irish
- Thread starter Logan Westbrook
- Start date
Oh for fucks sake, suck it up! So it's a stereotype big deal. Complain when it's a derogotory word/name like gook or wetback or ******...not that I use those, I just know them. Blame Comedy Central and the internet.
Actually Most of us Americans do have a huge boner for the Irish. Not sure why. Historically we seemed to go from hating everything about them to idolizing them pretty abruptly.Mr Companion said:
In all honesty the current media seems to enjoy portraying them as extremely charming handsome party boys who drink hard and live for the moment (I say 'boys' because you see Irish women in TV shows and movies about as often as you see bigfoot in real life)which is what the majority of the current generation seem to be aspiring to (every time you see some frat boy douchebag, or some guido from the Jersey shore playing beer pong rest assured he wears a green hoody with the words "I'm Irish" on it on St. Patrik's Day.)
Rest assured it's just as annoying as it sounds when the majority of your peers think the fact that they're an eighth Irish entitles them to wear clothing labeling them as bigger Micks than anyone in the IRA and drink heavily. Honestly I love America, I really do, but no country will ever be populated by people more pretentious than those who inhabit the land of the free.
(For the record I have more Irish blood in me than most people in america who claim that they are from the land of shamrocks. Hell my last name is Shea, it used to be O'shea until my ancestors dropped the O and got jobs.)
um... i don't really know what to say. I'm about 3/4 Irish and I love all the stereotypes. I mean really, I'm pretty proud to say I can drink enough to float a small warship. as for Irish I think they should leave him in the game. Drinking is just what Irish people do, probably drinking as they were complaining about Irish.
Given the fact that, during the second World War, Belgium was perfectly willing to be crushed in open conflict than act as a willing highway for the Nazi's earns them some respect from history. Combine that with the fact I've never actually met someone from the country (the internet doesn't exactly count) nor have I met someone who has means any sterotype I've ever heard about them would be hard to make stick. In fact, I am utterly ignorant of sterotypes regarding the nation or it's people.Thibaut said:
No one complained about the ultra-British Jack Swift in Red Dead Revolver. He was an Old Etonian, and I'm fairly certain he was gay (he seems like he's trying to avoid Kate when he rescues her from Prof. Perry and co.). He gets completely pissed and calls Red "me old china". Although he was completely awesome, so I didn't mind.
Haven't you played a Grant Theft Auto game? American stereotypes are everywhere. And I'm fairly certain a least a few of the Rockstar guys will have Irish heritage.Ungenericteen said:
As an Australian, I can totally understand where the offended people are coming from. We too are ceaselessly stereotyped as big drinkers, and for those of us who only have a glass of wine once a week or less, it's very over the top.
On the other hand, though, the setting of the Wild West is intrinsically racist, so we're talking about something that realistically fits the characters that you're likely to see.
Look at Gun, the last decent Western I saw come out. In that game, who was fighting who was almost entirely defined by race. American Indians fought with the white settlers, the Chinese settlers were civilians who never fought, leaving the only (personality-wise) multi-racial character - the protagonist, thankfully - to try to bring together his European and Indian heritages. That's how the developers of Gun avoided being too racially offensive; by showing an inner struggle with the protagonist deciding who and what he really is in a world divided by the lines going straight through his centre.
Despite how intrinsic ethnic conflict is to realistic presentations of that setting, I still think that there's just no need to cover that conflict. You can avoid it and still make a good game, or film. So if you're not going to subvert stupidity or racial ignorance, why cover it? It's not worthy of attention just for humour's sake. Satire is a different matter, but from what I've read so far this isn't satire.
When you make a work of fiction that can reach the lowest common denominator, you have to expect those people to do the worst possible things with it. That's why avoiding racist humour is generally a good idea in the world of mainstream fiction. You're reinforcing ethnic stereotypes, and for what? A few cheap jokes? Please.
We're better off without this kind of thing in our games. Simple as that.
On the other hand, though, the setting of the Wild West is intrinsically racist, so we're talking about something that realistically fits the characters that you're likely to see.
Look at Gun, the last decent Western I saw come out. In that game, who was fighting who was almost entirely defined by race. American Indians fought with the white settlers, the Chinese settlers were civilians who never fought, leaving the only (personality-wise) multi-racial character - the protagonist, thankfully - to try to bring together his European and Indian heritages. That's how the developers of Gun avoided being too racially offensive; by showing an inner struggle with the protagonist deciding who and what he really is in a world divided by the lines going straight through his centre.
Despite how intrinsic ethnic conflict is to realistic presentations of that setting, I still think that there's just no need to cover that conflict. You can avoid it and still make a good game, or film. So if you're not going to subvert stupidity or racial ignorance, why cover it? It's not worthy of attention just for humour's sake. Satire is a different matter, but from what I've read so far this isn't satire.
That might be true for you, as you've taken a measured approach to thinking about it, but it won't be for others. Others will take the stereotype at face value and believe that it applies to all Irish people.USSR said:
When you make a work of fiction that can reach the lowest common denominator, you have to expect those people to do the worst possible things with it. That's why avoiding racist humour is generally a good idea in the world of mainstream fiction. You're reinforcing ethnic stereotypes, and for what? A few cheap jokes? Please.
We're better off without this kind of thing in our games. Simple as that.
This is just another example of a business needlessly giving in to special interests. I have a Irish backround but I'm not offended. But since those haitians got the part that offended them taken off, if they don't take Irish off, I WILL be offended!
I always gave credit to Rockstar for trying to be edgy. However, this proves that they are all just wussy corporate pushovers.
AND I DO LOVE TO DRINK!
I always gave credit to Rockstar for trying to be edgy. However, this proves that they are all just wussy corporate pushovers.
AND I DO LOVE TO DRINK!
While perhaps contreversial, I will point out that one can also look at things like this as showing how far a people have come.Silva said:
To put things into perspective, let's take Native Americans, an example I will use only because I have now worked on TWO indian reservations, and known people from probably a dozen tribes since a lot of differant tribes came down to visit for various functions. I've also read a number of Native-related newspapers and such, and have seen several differant perspectives on the entire thing.
There are several differant current Native American stereotypes you can use (sociologically not just one. However one think you'll notice rapidly is that not all of them are massively anti-white, or have a chip on their shoulder about white expansion and such. Many do, there is quite a bit of racism, but you'll find a surprising number are very objective about the massive benefits that have come as a result of conquests, reservations, and oppertunities that never would have been presented otherwise. Especially when you consider that the Native civilizations were never quite as advanced as many politically correct versions of history will try and present things. In absolute terms there are more natives alive than there were centuries ago, they live better lives, and probably would never have obtained most of the things they have now due to reluctantly admitted cultural stagnation. I will be quite blunt in saying that while you have a lot of people who like to try and "ruin" Thanksgiving for non-natives due to later events, sometimes, especially around that time, you run into Native Americans who will point out that they themselves DO have a lot of things to be grateful for when viewed from a certain perspective. I've seen "was it worth the deaths" weighed both ways in various articles, and talking to differant people.
You sit back and watch an old Western, where Natives are not exactly portrayed well, and some will scream "OMG that's racist", however in a surprising number of cases it's accurate as a lot of westerns, including some pretty old ones, tried hard to be accurate to the period including the natives (though there are cases where this is not true). Instead of looking upon such a stereotype as offensive, it can also be viewed as how things have changed.
The same can be said when looking at desperate and uneducated immigrant cultures. Irish, Italians, Polish, Chinese, back in the old days when those people were new, they *WERE* a desperate, unwashed, uneducated, group of vagabonds. These were people who were fleeing to the US in vast numbers due to wreched conditions, not people from a peaceful country moving down here because they found a job, or wanted a shot at a piece of free land under homesteading laws. Tramp freighters were full of well... tramps.
Sure showing some of these people circa 1911 accuratly, along with the score they received might not be nice, but that doesn't make it true. It also makes what happened later all the more powerful, and shows why America is the land of oppertunity that has inspired so many people.
I've said a lot of this before, but the bottom line is that I'm against historical reinventionism. When dealing with something that is trying to be "historical" there is no reason not to present it accuratly.
Incidently, that can also involve some rather unflattering portrayals of the US. We were not the dominant world power before the end of World War II, and Britan and the rest of Europe had some rather unflattering opinions of us and our revolution. For a long time, we were viewed as upstart hick farmers with delusions of grandeur. Heck, we were pretty much viewed as an extension of Britan, and for a long time despite our "independance" we pretty much survived due to their largesse and protection.
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Oh and as a final note, to be honest I'm not sure if the "fat, lazy American" thing is a real stereotype to be honest, as much as a general stereotype, simply because it can be applied to pretty much any one, and any (generally successful) nation. I think people saying it is, is largely because some Americans tend to be sensitive about it, where it's a problem affecting the entire first world to one extent or another. The downside of technoloty (sort of like the song 2525).
Holy crap, are people still talking about this?
Sheesh, no wonder people get so offended. It gives them something to yammer on about endlessly.
Sheesh, no wonder people get so offended. It gives them something to yammer on about endlessly.
Wasn't racism common in that era and part of the setting since it is a western? Also I notice how this is a big deal, yet no one gets pissy over the fat (funny thing about this, there are quite a few other countries close or surpassing our obesity levels here in the States, to name one South Korea. Just something that happens to developed countries that if culture does not intervene then it adapts to do so), stupid, ignorant, gun toting bible loving American stereotype that seems to be all the rage. Confirmation bias aside living in the States my whole life it definitely is not the truth. Just really different and diverse people.
Edited: (Forgot Thailand isn't considered first world)
Edited: (Forgot Thailand isn't considered first world)