RPGs Should Ditch the Stats

[yamantaka ishibashi]

Any progress within a virtual system must be quantifiable, for it is the machine you run it on that calculates the outcome of your actions considering the characteristics of your avatar. It works using algorithms and as such must use a specific set of given data. The only form of data that the computer can work with are numerical values.If you have only an arbitrary character and then learn abilieties does it mean that,if you - let's say - learn to play piano, then he/she'll be as good at playing the piano as any other character that has ever been played within the copntext of the game.


If on the other hand you allow for a system like the one in F3, you may end up having to kill a lvl 200.93 dragon to put in 9 skill points into lockpicking so as to be able to open the door to a latrine in X,for you're shtrongg as bull but the game doesn't allow you to force the door open.
People saying that (nearly) every game is based on stats are right.An fps has them only more skill is involved, for you can use the the in-game physics to bunny-hop, maintain certain magnitude and direction of momentum, rocket jump etc.F3 is "stiff" in this aspect,deliberately(or at least I think so) crippling the players ability to use the game controls and manual skills to defeat the enemy and forcing you to build up the avatars characteristics to be able to smoothly progress in the games story.

Finally, if you try to hide the numerical nature of the games world by saying;"this guy was strong but he was killed by the other one because he is very strong" you can always put it like this; very strong>...>strong, so you might think that it allows for a more abstract, ambiguous and somewhat smoother system. But hey - if x and y, y=0 are any positive real numbers
and x>y, why not have a simple formula and so on.Make the intervals as small as you wish(x_2=x_1 + 10^-(some large number ;p )), n>x_(n-1)>...>x_(3)>[(x_(3)+x_(2))/2]>x_(2)...>0 make n be an upper bound of a subset of R+ to limit the abilities and you've got yourself a smooooooooth system, but it's still based on stats.In real life you make leaps, for everything you learn opens up new options at an exponential rate,for there are so many things that can be done.

Or something like that

 

[mikecoulter]

Any progress within a virtual system must be quantifiable, for it is the machine you run it on that calculates the outcome of your actions considering the characteristics of your avatar. It works using algorithms and as such must use a specific set of given data. The only form of data that the computer can work with are numerical values.If you have only an arbitrary character and then learn abilieties does it mean that,if you - let's say - learn to play piano, then he/she'll be as good at playing the piano as any other character that has ever been played within the copntext of the game.


If on the other hand you allow for a system like the one in F3, you may end up having to kill a lvl 200.93 dragon to put in 9 skill points into lockpicking so as to be able to open the door to a latrine in X,for you're shtrongg as bull but the game doesn't allow you to force the door open.
People saying that (nearly) every game is based on stats are right.An fps has them only more skill is involved, for you can use the the in-game physics to bunny-hop, maintain certain magnitude and direction of momentum, rocket jump etc.F3 is "stiff" in this aspect,deliberately(or at least I think so) crippling the players ability to use the game controls and manual skills to defeat the enemy and forcing you to build up the avatars characteristics to be able to smoothly progress in the games story.

Finally, if you try to hide the numerical nature of the games world by saying;"this guy was strong but he was killed by the other one because he is very strong" you can always put it like this; very strong>...>strong, so you might think that it allows for a more abstract, ambiguous and somewhat smoother system. But hey - if x and y, y=0 are any positive real numbers
and x>y, why not have a simple formula and so on.Make the intervals as small as you wish(x_2=x_1 + 10^-(some large number ;p )), n>x_(n-1)>...>x_(3)>[(x_(3)+x_(2))/2]>x_(2)...>0 make n be an upper bound of a subset of R+ to limit the abilities and you've got yourself a smooooooooth system, but it's still based on stats.In real life you make leaps, for everything you learn opens up new options at an exponential rate,for there are so many things that can be done.

Or something like that

Wow, I vote this best first post

 

[Boaal]

Wouldn't it then turn into an action game?

I think the problem with stats is that usually they are just randomly assigned and whatnot.
I think that stat alocation is integral to RPG's in terms of how interesting your character turns out to be. Neverwinter nights did it well, it gave you some very interesting builds.
Shadowbane made stat allocation and skill point allocation a big thign and did it very well. You could be incedibly varied and incredibly viable and it was a great experience testing your build inlarge scale PVP.

When you get stats and skills assigned for you, then it's not worth it.
I agree that the click-attack-wait thing is annoying at times, because unless you actually have things to do that effect the action as it plays out, it becomes boring and repetative and you have little control over it.

 

[TheNumber1Zero]

just because it's old does not mean it's bad.there is an age old saying to this

if it ain't broken don't fix it

 

[yamantaka ishibashi]

I had to let it all out ;p

 

[Alufear]

I think that stats should individually grow depending on your performance rather than being affected by a character's overall level.

Say your fighting a boss. During the fight you don't use a single health potion even though you're low on HP, and you don't use any spells or magic attacks. You're fighting tooth and nail with physical attacks and skillful blocking and dodging. If the boss dies and an orb falls down leveling you up, why should your Intelligence increase? Or your Constitution?

It's just so imprecise.

Would would be cool would be if stats grew depending on action. What if your Strength grew at a certain rate depending on your weapons power or size or weight? What if Intelligence (magic strength) grew based on the strength or complexity of the spells you use in battle? Dexterity? Blocking, dodging, countering.

If it were more realistic, then I think the system would improve.

 

[AncientYoungSon]

Statistics evolved as a means of determining the potential of a character that was independent of the skill of the player. They are a buffer between the human playing the game and the game's ability to determine whether the human playing the game is worthy of completing the game or not.

What do you get when you subtract stats from the equation? You get games that hinge upon the skill of the player and nothing else, games that most "gamers" probably gave up playing a while back because they were too hard for them.

 

[Terramax]

I don't see exactly how else they would do this. It works doesn't it? Why change something that has worked for so long?

Because it hasn't worked. People such as myself gave up on the genre long ago, as many more are.

 

[The Rockerfly]

No, bad idiot
Get back in your cage. Just because you don't want stats doesn't mean you are a popular opinion

 

[theklng]

article

isn't it a bit shameless to do this sort of promotion? i mean, it's not like you don't have this on the frontpage present day or have had in the past - why rephrase it?

stats are what is fun about an RPG. you want the character to match yourself (or match a certain individual) as much as possible.

 

[Amnestic]

I don't see exactly how else they would do this. It works doesn't it? Why change something that has worked for so long?

Because it hasn't worked. People such as myself gave up on the genre long ago, as many more are.

Racing games have always had the mechanic of being "First" in the race to win. I've never found this working and I gave up on the genre, as many other have done.

 

[gim73]

I think that stats should individually grow depending on your performance rather than being affected by a character's overall level.

Say your fighting a boss. During the fight you don't use a single health potion even though you're low on HP, and you don't use any spells or magic attacks. You're fighting tooth and nail with physical attacks and skillful blocking and dodging. If the boss dies and an orb falls down leveling you up, why should your Intelligence increase? Or your Constitution?

It's just so imprecise.

Would would be cool would be if stats grew depending on action. What if your Strength grew at a certain rate depending on your weapons power or size or weight? What if Intelligence (magic strength) grew based on the strength or complexity of the spells you use in battle? Dexterity? Blocking, dodging, countering.

If it were more realistic, then I think the system would improve.

Why yes, you are RIGHT. That is why back in 1988, square came out with a game called Final Fantasy 2. This was a level-less, class-less game. Your characters would increase their stats by using certain abilities more. You would get more hp if you were hit more. Mp would increase by using magic spells more. Specific magic spells would increase in power by increased use as well.

Don't feel bad that you missed this concept by 20 years. The japanese version for ff2 didn't come out in the US until it was ported to the ps1 about nine years ago. It's not a /bad/ idea, but alot of people didn't like it. Same with the jobs system of ff3 and ff5.

Another one I hate is the stupid weapons upgrade system of ff8. Not only do I have to gather body parts from critters all over the place, find it in a weapons monthly magazine, I also have to pay the guy money. Why? Is it really so hard to just buy a new weapon without the hassel?

 

[Susan Arendt]

article

isn't it a bit shameless to do this sort of promotion? i mean, it's not like you don't have this on the frontpage present day or have had in the past - why rephrase it?

stats are what is fun about an RPG. you want the character to match yourself (or match a certain individual) as much as possible.

Not everyone consumes our content the same way. Some people never visit the front page at all. Some people didn't even know we did feature articles before we started these recaps. Also, more than one person has said that the redesign makes it a little difficult for them to find the features, so we thought this would help.

So, no, not really shameless at all. Just helpful.

 

[Mordwyl]

Stats are called RPG elements for a reason.

 

[Guitar Gamer]

don't fix what isn't broken, it works and no one is complaining so why would we?
if someone can find a better way good for them but the system works for me

 

[Terramax]

I don't see exactly how else they would do this. It works doesn't it? Why change something that has worked for so long?

Because it hasn't worked. People such as myself gave up on the genre long ago, as many more are.

Racing games have always had the mechanic of being "First" in the race to win. I've never found this working and I gave up on the genre, as many other have done.

That's a silly comparison. You race to come first to prove you're the most skillful/ the best on the race course. That requires skill and determination.

Stats in RPGs on the otherhand are completely illogical.

How does killing the same creatures 1000s of times somehow make you stronger/ gain more experiece? If I went out with a sword and sliced and diced 1000 rabbits would I suddenly end up stronger somehow. No (don't ask me to prove this! XD).

Stats and battles are merely filler for turning a 10 hour story/ gaming into an 80 hour one. This goes w/o saying most stat based RPGs have battles that require little to no skill or thought at all. And how do wolves you've killed give you money and armor? Completely illogical.

It's worth noting that Shenmue is one such RPG that attempted to eliminate stats. I also consider Zelda to be an RPG also. There are ones that try, and succeed in eliminating this flaw in the genre, but they're too far and in-between.

Why yes, you are RIGHT. That is why back in 1988, square came out with a game called Final Fantasy 2. This was a level-less, class-less game. Your characters would increase their stats by using certain abilities more. You would get more hp if you were hit more. Mp would increase by using magic spells more. Specific magic spells would increase in power by increased use as well.

Don't feel bad that you missed this concept by 20 years. The japanese version for ff2 didn't come out in the US until it was ported to the ps1 about nine years ago. It's not a /bad/ idea, but alot of people didn't like it. Same with the jobs system of ff3 and ff5.

That's one game in 20 years...... and, fair enough, you say people didn't like it, but that's what evolution is about. Trial and error, amending, improving over time.

 

[geldonyetich]

I think that it depends on how well the game uses them.

Your average MMORPG uses statistics as merely a mechanism to forward a grind. Kill monsters to make the little numbers go up to kill more monsters. There's little rhyme or reason to it, players have to craft theories [http://www.wowwiki.com/Theorycraft] to even figure out what those numbers really mean to them.

However, if you're playing a good RPG, each number has significance you can understand well, and is a vital part of game that makes it deep and interesting. There's not many examples, but lets say City of Heroes, a game where you can see the actual percentage difference different choices in your enhancements make, or the actual damage that a power will do.

Overall, RPGs should only ditch the stats if the designers are unwilling or unable to explain them to the players, resulting in them making little to no sense.

 

[metagaia]

I think what they mean is not that they should have numbers, but those numbers shouldn't be visible

The reason everything in D&D is done in such blocky numbers is that all the calculations need to be done by hand. That's why we have just generic hitpoints, and your strength takes larges leaps with single number increases.

Take something like Oblivion, and while the stats are visible, they are far too complex to extensivly metagame while in the heat of battle, and their vast complexity adds to the realism.

Going further, we could model real life more by not telling the user their exact stat (like hidden values in pokemon). We just tell them that they feel stronger etc (chance of improvement when they do something strength based). That way, it can be intricate as needed to be, and much more continuous than discrete. Also, it will add to the sense of realism, and thus roleplaying which is the whole point of RPGS

Therefore, I would have a system where you are not given a score for your attributes, but are merely told how they rank from highest to lowest.

 

[Shycte]

Well without stats it wouldn't be so much Roleplaying now would it?

 

[pantsoffdanceoff]

If it isn't broke, why fix it? Evolving for no other reason than to evolve is stupid. Let games take their own natural course.