San Francisco considering banning circumcision

RelexCryo

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ShakyFt Slasher said:
It should be a right because: 1: It is a religious practice, 2: It can keep it from getting certain diseases, and 3: It makes sex more pleasurable
Um....Several women actually prefer uncircumcised, simply because it is more pleasurable for them. On another note, what I find interesting is that Marvel Comics moved the X-Men to San Francisco, on the grounds that it is open minded and tolerant, as they were on a big pro-gay rights trend at the time. And the creator of the X-men, Stan Lee, is Jewish. So a superhero team created by a Jew are now based in a city where many people are trying to violate the religous rights of Jewish people.

There is a difference between being anti-traditional and being truly open minded. Many of Marvel's current writers don't really seem to understand the difference. The X-men should be moved to Vermont. They respect everyone's rights in Vermont. But I doubt Marvel would be happy with the X-Men dwelling in a strongly pro-gun state.
 

JUMBO PALACE

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I don't know if it needs to be outlawed, but I do believe that it's wrong for parents to decide whether or not their son is circumsised.
 

beema

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As stupid as I think circumcision is, I'm pretty sure banning it goes against freedom of religion. If your crazy Jewish parents want to chop off your dick skin when you're a baby, it's their right under our constitution.
 

DoubleTime

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I think altering a kid's body for aesthetics, whether it's ear piercing or circumcision, especially stuff that's irreversible, is stupid and morally wrong.

That said, if there is a good reason for doing something, like their health is impacted, I feel the parent has a responsibility to weigh the pros and cons. If they don't circumcise their boy as an infant, but he turns out to never wash himself and is getting constant, serious infections, then I feel that a parent should probably have him circumcised. If they don't that could be even more damaging than choosing to do the procedure. Granted this is a specific example, but I've heard lots of mothers of young boys say that the circumcision probably saved his "boyhood". The only other option would be to manhandle them daily in the bath, and that is probably closer to sexually harassing your child than helping them.

Otherwise it falls to the man when he's old enough. Most importantly though, it's not just about his physical pleasure but also his lifestyle. If the man is promiscuous, he has a responsibility to himself and his partners to consider it because being circumcised lowers the rate of HIV by 60%.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=circumcision-penis-microbiome-hiv-infection

Chamale said:
(horrible pun not intended considering the topic)

On the related note of female circumcision, unlike male circumcision it's usually done around age 10 without anesthetics, there is nothing positive that comes out of it, and it probably claims more lives than male circumcision saves, especially the forms that leave only one tiny opening (if you don't open it surgically fast enough when they are giving birth, they die). It's done for aesthetics by people who find female genitals to look too much like penises and by people who think it's horrible for women to feel any sexual arousal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/
 

MaxwellEdison

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I understand that we should make titles provocative to get views and stuff, but no one wants to ban circumcision, they just want to make sure your parents don't force it on you. Which I honestly don't see a problem with, if it's a religious thing, why don't you wait until your kid is intelligent enough to make his own choice?
 

Dimitriov

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MaxwellEdison said:
I understand that we should make titles provocative to get views and stuff, but no one wants to ban circumcision, they just want to make sure your parents don't force it on you. Which I honestly don't see a problem with, if it's a religious thing, why don't you wait until your kid is intelligent enough to make his own choice?
Because it is a far riskier, more painful, and generally difficult procedure when you are no longer a baby? Especially if it's done after puberty.
 

Avatar Roku

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Dimitriov said:
Here's the thing from my perspective. If you are an uncircumcised man or a woman saying that it is morally wrong to perform circumcisions you might want to check your credentials right now.

Of all the circumcised men how many complain about it? Not too many in my experience. And don't even try to bring up "female circumcision" it is not remotely comparable. That is an example of men perpetrating a form of social repression on women. Circumcision is usually done because the parents genuinely believe it's in their child's best interest or for honest religious convictions that you have no right to deny.

Less pleasurable? Apparently women find sex more pleasurable than men... do you feel awful and wish you were born as a girl just because of that? No probably not. If it is less pleasurable it's not noticeable or worth mentioning.

And finally saying that you should only be able to choose to have it done at 18 is absurd. If it is going to be done it should be done when they are a baby and will have no memory of it. If it hurt I don't care, I sure as hell can't remember it.
Quoted for the truth. You said it better than I.
Chamale said:
Avatar Roku said:
Really? What about all the parents who choose to not give their kids vaccines, just as an example? There are all sorts of circumstances like that, where parents endanger their children, and nobody cares. Also, again, not to minimize those deaths, but 1 in 10,000 is incredibly low, almost statistically negligible.
Well, I also think that not vaccinating children is horrifyingly irresponsible.

100 preventable deaths are absolutely worth preventing, if possible. You call 1/10,000 incredibly low, but it's higher than the murder rate in the United States. Whether it's murder or death by botched circumcisions, every preventable death is worth preventing. I'm not saying circumcision should be as bad as murder, but it should be outlawed for the sake of those 100 lives per year.

I dunno, it just strikes me as throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Note, those 100 deaths are from BOTCHED circumcisions. Rather than banning circumcisions, shouldn't we just make sure the people who carry them out actually know what they are doing? Rather than banning a ceremony that has meaning to so many people, myself included, shouldn't we just make sure it's done well?

Also, I'm tempted to say you are, but that's not fair. You're points are valid, even though I disagree :)

EDIT: Please ignore my horrible metaphor about babies and bathwater XD
 

BlueMage

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Avatar Roku said:
Really? What about all the parents who choose to not give their kids vaccines, just as an example? There are all sorts of circumstances like that, where parents endanger their children, and nobody cares. Also, again, not to minimize those deaths, but 1 in 10,000 is incredibly low, almost statistically negligible.
You mean those retards, sorry, PARENTS who are all but DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the re-emergence of several diseases that had all but been WIPED THE FUCK OUT in industrialised nations?

Yeah, that's one thing that pisses me off immeasurably.
 

drisky

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We can't get in to this discussion with saying things like "mutilated" or "hideous" or "torn apart" or "unclean" can we Escapist. I'm getting sick of these Dick Wars. As someone also tries to say its the same as female circumcision and then I have to get really offended.
 

Avatar Roku

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BlueMage said:
Avatar Roku said:
Really? What about all the parents who choose to not give their kids vaccines, just as an example? There are all sorts of circumstances like that, where parents endanger their children, and nobody cares. Also, again, not to minimize those deaths, but 1 in 10,000 is incredibly low, almost statistically negligible.
You mean those retards, sorry, PARENTS who are all but DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the re-emergence of several diseases that had all but been WIPED THE FUCK OUT in industrialised nations?

Yeah, that's one thing that pisses me off immeasurably.
Why yes, they're exactly who I mean. The idiots.
 

Bon_Clay

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Dimitriov said:
Here's the thing from my perspective. If you are an uncircumcised man or a woman saying that it is morally wrong to perform circumcisions you might want to check your credentials right now.

Of all the circumcised men how many complain about it? Not too many in my experience. And don't even try to bring up "female circumcision" it is not remotely comparable. That is an example of men perpetrating a form of social repression on women. Circumcision is usually done because the parents genuinely believe it's in their child's best interest or for honest religious convictions that you have no right to deny.

Less pleasurable? Apparently women find sex more pleasurable than men... do you feel awful and wish you were born as a girl just because of that? No probably not. If it is less pleasurable it's not noticeable or worth mentioning.

And finally saying that you should only be able to choose to have it done at 18 is absurd. If it is going to be done it should be done when they are a baby and will have no memory of it. If it hurt I don't care, I sure as hell can't remember it.
Why would people who only know what its like to be circumcised complain, they don't know what they are missing. And some do anyway because they've done some research. Parents being ignorant and thinking its helpful somehow doesn't magically make it a good thing to do.

Comparing the loss of sensation to the difference of pleasure the other gender feels is a worse comparison than the female circumcision one. You're born the gender you are, and even sex changes don't make you actually built as you would if you were born a girl. The latter still involves cutting babies genitals for no reason other than people thought it was a good idea a long time ago.

If it isn't worth doing despite the pain it isn't worth doing at all. Its a cosmetic procedure, that's the price you pay for making aesthetic changes to your body. Whether its a piercing, tattoo, breast implants or circumcision, if you really want it done you'll get it done. But those who grow up and wish they hadn't been circumcised, or at least given a choice, have had their rights taken away.
 

MaxwellEdison

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Dimitriov said:
MaxwellEdison said:
I understand that we should make titles provocative to get views and stuff, but no one wants to ban circumcision, they just want to make sure your parents don't force it on you. Which I honestly don't see a problem with, if it's a religious thing, why don't you wait until your kid is intelligent enough to make his own choice?
Because it is a far riskier, more painful, and generally difficult procedure when you are no longer a baby? Especially if it's done after puberty.
Perhaps the fact that its such a dangerous procedure is a warning sign? I mean, we are talking about cutting off part of your body because you think God wants you to here.
 

Scabadus

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You know what else is a religious practise? Brutally murdering our fellow humans in disgusting and painful ways. Think that should be allowed just because an old book said so?

And that's my argument on that matter.
 

gring

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Yes, lets have the parents decide, because parents can speak for an infant right?

I'm sorry, but this is silly, circumcision at birth is a violation of free will. how can ANYONE here say its okay for someone else to make decisions about your own junk.

...jesus effing christ, people.
 

liquidangry

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marfoir(IRL) said:
And I dont mean to sound callous here, but 100 seems like a very inconsequential number when put in perspective of the US's population and also since the US is where circumcision is most prevalent.
Out of curiousity I wonder how many babies die each year in total, and how many for really easily preventable reasons.
You sound callous because you're looking at the question the wrong way. You should be asking, "Ok, how many people die from NOT being circumcised." If the answer is zero then you should reconsider circumcision's merits.

And to everyone saying people should wait until 18... wtf? What do you think the answer is going to be? "Hello sir, would you like the skin on your penis removed?" ..... "Um, no...."

99.999999999% of people will say no unless they've got some horrible flesh eating disease on their foreskin.
 

Timmehexas

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Well I'm circumcised and quite happy with it, due to the fact if I hadn't had mine I wouldn't have been able to urinate at all since birth. But doing it as a medical procedure to save someones life is on a completely different level I suppose.
 

GodEmperor47

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California is literally bleeding money, and they're worried about circumcision? If you needed proof that people out there are morons, this is it.
 

Avatar Roku

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MaxwellEdison said:
Dimitriov said:
MaxwellEdison said:
I understand that we should make titles provocative to get views and stuff, but no one wants to ban circumcision, they just want to make sure your parents don't force it on you. Which I honestly don't see a problem with, if it's a religious thing, why don't you wait until your kid is intelligent enough to make his own choice?
Because it is a far riskier, more painful, and generally difficult procedure when you are no longer a baby? Especially if it's done after puberty.
Perhaps the fact that its such a dangerous procedure is a warning sign? I mean, we are talking about cutting off part of your body because you think God wants you to here.
But that's the point. It ISN'T that dangerous when done 8 days after birth, the customary time. It's only that dangerous if done later.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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Necromancer Jim said:
For a so-called "land of the free", America doesn't like giving people choices.
well the kid doesnt exactally have a choice....

that said Im not totally against circumcision but on principle the Idea of forcing somthing upon a child dosnt really sit well with me

anyway im not sure it should be banned...there is the relious side of things as well