San Francisco considering banning circumcision

[Dimitriov]

I understand that we should make titles provocative to get views and stuff, but no one wants to ban circumcision, they just want to make sure your parents don't force it on you. Which I honestly don't see a problem with, if it's a religious thing, why don't you wait until your kid is intelligent enough to make his own choice?

Because it is a far riskier, more painful, and generally difficult procedure when you are no longer a baby? Especially if it's done after puberty.

 

[Avatar Roku]

Here's the thing from my perspective. If you are an uncircumcised man or a woman saying that it is morally wrong to perform circumcisions you might want to check your credentials right now.

Of all the circumcised men how many complain about it? Not too many in my experience. And don't even try to bring up "female circumcision" it is not remotely comparable. That is an example of men perpetrating a form of social repression on women. Circumcision is usually done because the parents genuinely believe it's in their child's best interest or for honest religious convictions that you have no right to deny.

Less pleasurable? Apparently women find sex more pleasurable than men... do you feel awful and wish you were born as a girl just because of that? No probably not. If it is less pleasurable it's not noticeable or worth mentioning.

And finally saying that you should only be able to choose to have it done at 18 is absurd. If it is going to be done it should be done when they are a baby and will have no memory of it. If it hurt I don't care, I sure as hell can't remember it.

Quoted for the truth. You said it better than I.

Really? What about all the parents who choose to not give their kids vaccines, just as an example? There are all sorts of circumstances like that, where parents endanger their children, and nobody cares. Also, again, not to minimize those deaths, but 1 in 10,000 is incredibly low, almost statistically negligible.

Well, I also think that not vaccinating children is horrifyingly irresponsible.

100 preventable deaths are absolutely worth preventing, if possible. You call 1/10,000 incredibly low, but it's higher than the murder rate in the United States. Whether it's murder or death by botched circumcisions, every preventable death is worth preventing. I'm not saying circumcision should be as bad as murder, but it should be outlawed for the sake of those 100 lives per year.

Spoiler: Oh dear, have I turned into Helen Lovejoy?

I dunno, it just strikes me as throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Note, those 100 deaths are from BOTCHED circumcisions. Rather than banning circumcisions, shouldn't we just make sure the people who carry them out actually know what they are doing? Rather than banning a ceremony that has meaning to so many people, myself included, shouldn't we just make sure it's done well?

Also, I'm tempted to say you are, but that's not fair. You're points are valid, even though I disagree

EDIT: Please ignore my horrible metaphor about babies and bathwater XD

 

[BlueMage]

Really? What about all the parents who choose to not give their kids vaccines, just as an example? There are all sorts of circumstances like that, where parents endanger their children, and nobody cares. Also, again, not to minimize those deaths, but 1 in 10,000 is incredibly low, almost statistically negligible.

You mean those retards, sorry, PARENTS who are all but DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the re-emergence of several diseases that had all but been WIPED THE FUCK OUT in industrialised nations?

Yeah, that's one thing that pisses me off immeasurably.

 

[drisky]

We can't get in to this discussion with saying things like "mutilated" or "hideous" or "torn apart" or "unclean" can we Escapist. I'm getting sick of these Dick Wars. As someone also tries to say its the same as female circumcision and then I have to get really offended.

 

[Avatar Roku]

Really? What about all the parents who choose to not give their kids vaccines, just as an example? There are all sorts of circumstances like that, where parents endanger their children, and nobody cares. Also, again, not to minimize those deaths, but 1 in 10,000 is incredibly low, almost statistically negligible.

You mean those retards, sorry, PARENTS who are all but DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the re-emergence of several diseases that had all but been WIPED THE FUCK OUT in industrialised nations?

Yeah, that's one thing that pisses me off immeasurably.

Why yes, they're exactly who I mean. The idiots.

 

[Bon_Clay]

Here's the thing from my perspective. If you are an uncircumcised man or a woman saying that it is morally wrong to perform circumcisions you might want to check your credentials right now.

Of all the circumcised men how many complain about it? Not too many in my experience. And don't even try to bring up "female circumcision" it is not remotely comparable. That is an example of men perpetrating a form of social repression on women. Circumcision is usually done because the parents genuinely believe it's in their child's best interest or for honest religious convictions that you have no right to deny.

Less pleasurable? Apparently women find sex more pleasurable than men... do you feel awful and wish you were born as a girl just because of that? No probably not. If it is less pleasurable it's not noticeable or worth mentioning.

And finally saying that you should only be able to choose to have it done at 18 is absurd. If it is going to be done it should be done when they are a baby and will have no memory of it. If it hurt I don't care, I sure as hell can't remember it.

Why would people who only know what its like to be circumcised complain, they don't know what they are missing. And some do anyway because they've done some research. Parents being ignorant and thinking its helpful somehow doesn't magically make it a good thing to do.

Comparing the loss of sensation to the difference of pleasure the other gender feels is a worse comparison than the female circumcision one. You're born the gender you are, and even sex changes don't make you actually built as you would if you were born a girl. The latter still involves cutting babies genitals for no reason other than people thought it was a good idea a long time ago.

If it isn't worth doing despite the pain it isn't worth doing at all. Its a cosmetic procedure, that's the price you pay for making aesthetic changes to your body. Whether its a piercing, tattoo, breast implants or circumcision, if you really want it done you'll get it done. But those who grow up and wish they hadn't been circumcised, or at least given a choice, have had their rights taken away.

 

[MaxwellEdison]

I understand that we should make titles provocative to get views and stuff, but no one wants to ban circumcision, they just want to make sure your parents don't force it on you. Which I honestly don't see a problem with, if it's a religious thing, why don't you wait until your kid is intelligent enough to make his own choice?

Because it is a far riskier, more painful, and generally difficult procedure when you are no longer a baby? Especially if it's done after puberty.

Perhaps the fact that its such a dangerous procedure is a warning sign? I mean, we are talking about cutting off part of your body because you think God wants you to here.

 

[Scabadus]

You know what else is a religious practise? Brutally murdering our fellow humans in disgusting and painful ways. Think that should be allowed just because an old book said so?

And that's my argument on that matter.

 

[gring]

Yes, lets have the parents decide, because parents can speak for an infant right?

I'm sorry, but this is silly, circumcision at birth is a violation of free will. how can ANYONE here say its okay for someone else to make decisions about your own junk.

...jesus effing christ, people.

 

[liquidangry]

And I dont mean to sound callous here, but 100 seems like a very inconsequential number when put in perspective of the US's population and also since the US is where circumcision is most prevalent.
Out of curiousity I wonder how many babies die each year in total, and how many for really easily preventable reasons.

You sound callous because you're looking at the question the wrong way. You should be asking, "Ok, how many people die from NOT being circumcised." If the answer is zero then you should reconsider circumcision's merits.

And to everyone saying people should wait until 18... wtf? What do you think the answer is going to be? "Hello sir, would you like the skin on your penis removed?" ..... "Um, no...."

99.999999999% of people will say no unless they've got some horrible flesh eating disease on their foreskin.

 

[Timmehexas]

Well I'm circumcised and quite happy with it, due to the fact if I hadn't had mine I wouldn't have been able to urinate at all since birth. But doing it as a medical procedure to save someones life is on a completely different level I suppose.

 

[GodEmperor47]

California is literally bleeding money, and they're worried about circumcision? If you needed proof that people out there are morons, this is it.

 

[Avatar Roku]

I understand that we should make titles provocative to get views and stuff, but no one wants to ban circumcision, they just want to make sure your parents don't force it on you. Which I honestly don't see a problem with, if it's a religious thing, why don't you wait until your kid is intelligent enough to make his own choice?

Because it is a far riskier, more painful, and generally difficult procedure when you are no longer a baby? Especially if it's done after puberty.

Perhaps the fact that its such a dangerous procedure is a warning sign? I mean, we are talking about cutting off part of your body because you think God wants you to here.

But that's the point. It ISN'T that dangerous when done 8 days after birth, the customary time. It's only that dangerous if done later.

 

[Vault101]

For a so-called "land of the free", America doesn't like giving people choices.

well the kid doesnt exactally have a choice....

that said Im not totally against circumcision but on principle the Idea of forcing somthing upon a child dosnt really sit well with me

anyway im not sure it should be banned...there is the relious side of things as well

 

[utopaline]

It should be a right because: 1: It is a religious practice, 2: It can keep it from getting certain diseases, and 3: It makes sex more pleasurable

not to be a troll, but 2 of the 3 statements you made are so far from the truth it's not even funny. Do some research, you'll be shocked to find out that being circumcised actually increase you chance of catching diseases and the foreskin is the most sensitive part of the male body so it actually makes sex way more enjoyable.

uto

 

[utopaline]

...make it the choice of the male when he is old enough

 

[Avatar Roku]

And I dont mean to sound callous here, but 100 seems like a very inconsequential number when put in perspective of the US's population and also since the US is where circumcision is most prevalent.
Out of curiousity I wonder how many babies die each year in total, and how many for really easily preventable reasons.

You sound callous because you're looking at the question the wrong way. You should be asking, "Ok, how many people die from NOT being circumcised." If the answer is zero then you should reconsider circumcision's merits.

Fair point, but at the same time, those deaths are from the procedure being botched, not anything inherent to the procedure. Rather than banning the actual procedure, shouldn't we just make sure that the people who perform the procedure know what they're doing? To again indulge in that unfortunate (under the circumstances) metaphor, it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Bantarific]

People seem to often say things are debatable when they are not, such as in this case, there are no proven health benefits, there is no proven anything to support circumcision. This website has a basic WHAT PEOPLE THINK and THE ACTUAL REALITY list on the right, please look at it and the sources if you do not believe still before posting anything more.
http://www.homiegfunk.com/RIC2.htm

 

[marfoir(IRL)]

And I dont mean to sound callous here, but 100 seems like a very inconsequential number when put in perspective of the US's population and also since the US is where circumcision is most prevalent.
Out of curiousity I wonder how many babies die each year in total, and how many for really easily preventable reasons.

You sound callous because you're looking at the question the wrong way. You should be asking, "Ok, how many people die from NOT being circumcised." If the answer is zero then you should reconsider circumcision's merits.

Point taken.
However consider, as somebody mentioned, things like parents not vaccinating their kids. Surely that causes more harm than good. Should we force vaccines upon people.

This is relevant since the crux of the matter is whether parents can make the decision for their kids even if it MAY not be the best choice.

 

[gring]

It should be a right because: 1: It is a religious practice, 2: It can keep it from getting certain diseases, and 3: It makes sex more pleasurable

not to be a troll, but 2 of the 3 statements you made are so far from the truth it's not even funny. Do some research, you'll be shocked to find out that being circumcised actually increase you chance of catching diseases and the foreskin is the most sensitive part of the male body so it actually makes sex way more enjoyable.

uto

yup, and the fact that its someone else making the decision FOR the child is the worst part about it.

are any of the facts you mention brought up to the parents? DIDN'T THINK SO. for some strange reason doctors paint a pretty picture of circumcision to the parents, so thats why most people end up doing it to their child.

...i want my foreskin back lol