Sexsim: have the tables actually turned?

[sparkyk24]

I honestly thing that an average looking woman has it about the same as men. There are pros and cons, and which one is easier really would come down to personal preference and personality type.

But extremely pretty girls have it easier. I don't care about the statistics, I've seen it time and time and time again in my personal life. Pretty girls get what they want, their stupidity is tolerated, and everyone rushes to help them when they need anything. Of course, some pretty women don't have it quite so easy because they refuse to be dumb and flirty which, at least at the young age, actually prevents them from getting what they want, which makes me want to stab everyone everywhere in the eye >.< I remember a girl that got hired to be one of the executives of a retail store that I worked at. Pretty and dumb as a box of dead fish. She couldn't understand why it was hard for me to get a job. The thought that someone wouldn't just give me whatever I wanted was incredibly hard for her to grasp, I think.

 

[bobtail123]

I think there are far more people who are openly and extremely sexist against women than there are against men. However it is more common to see mild, even subconscious, sexism in favor of women and this is far more socially acceptable. One of the big double-standards is the relative acceptability of sexism against men, rather than against women; however considering the history of sexism it's probably OK to let that one slide.

 

[mgirl]

with all respect I dont think people should be automatically banned from discussing certain issues, because they havnt experienced them first hand

That was not my intention, I think the beginning of my post was poorly worded, probably due to just how worked up I get about this I apologise.

and even worse its only acceptible for guys if they are "hot"...butch lesbians? from what Ive seen they seem to be acceptible targets for everyone to ridicule

Yeah... it's sad how true that can be... I was told outright by a guy that I'm an 'ok' lesbian because I'm skinny and relatively feminine, whereas those who arent are 'the bad kind'.

 

[TheDooD]

snip

Ohgodohgod why are you going into the theory of education? This is dangerous territory in which I only have light empirical data on (and not actual analysis).

I am aware of most of these things. I also did include a disclaimer that I was skipping entire connecting ideas so I could keep the length down.

A few things I've read have boiled down to similar things you've stated, namely, women are more likely to get discouraged pursuing mathematics or sciences. As to why? Well, schools have been hiring way more female teachers than prior to help encourage female students to participate more actively. It was believed male teachers might be unconsciously discouraging or oppressing female students simply by being male. Not far fetched; when I touched on women in the military as liasons, its for the same reason: commonsense is women are more comfortable speaking to other women. As for validity? Whatever. Classes also now involve more sitting. Because evidently girls learn better in calm environments. Boys, on the other hands, are terrible, rambunctious buggers and generally believed to learn better through doing. True? Maybe, more on that later.

But even with these efforts, among many other efforts, well, we've seen an improvement but we're still a long way from 50 / 50.

And the later parts. Another thing could be just sexism so deeply entrenched that we don't even realize its there. Maybe we are unconsciously ingraining different values into our children which causes them to learn differently. Do boys learn better by doing by nature or is that we just let them dick around more frequently? Nobody knows.

Which is another thing about sexism. Its been around for so long we don't even know what is nature and what is constructed anymore.

As for why go there? Its an important question that confounds our best scientists to this date. Could just take time, like what I said about the lack of women in the upper crust. Who knows.

I'd also like to say I'm a computer scientist. High five!

It's true I learned from doing, experimentation and mimicry. I overall hated the calm, slow ass methods that schools used. I might be a reason why I udderly hated High School, I got quite a few good teachers in 9th and 10th grade. Yet after that I noticed how drone shit was I even had a young female English teacher that was a ***** she treated the male and female students differently. She normally got really pissed off when she taught root words. The guys normally found funny words that worked with lesson, while the girls didn't even try. I and like 5 other guys got In School Suspension for getting the root words and enjoying the work. She played it off like we we're bullshitting around while we were doing what she asked we just took humor in it. While the girls in the class didn't really know what was going on.

 

[A Free Man]

snip.

I'll try really hard to talk about your arguments and not you, but I'd like to quickly say that I disagree almost entirely with essentially everything you have said in this thread. I am going to hope for your sake that your ideals have been formed in your mind because of events specific to you that have made you think the way you do. The thought that such ideas could have been formed based on pure ignorance and idiocy astounds and well kind of scares me. Anyway even if you are going to continue arguing your points, at least consider the implications of what you are saying before you say it. Doesn't take a lot of effort and might stop you from sounding foolish in the future.

 

[Syntax Error]

Anyway, getting a job as an engineer (especially electrical engineering) is much easier as a woman. This is an unfortunate problem that we currently face.

Interesting... Any insight on why this is the case?

 

[TheGreatAndPowerfulZOG]

No, we're pretty much on equal footing now. I'm sure men still have some advantages, and I know sexism against men is out there, but it really isn't very important compared to race and class divides.

 

[oppp7]

Sources? (I used Wikipedia)

Okay from a previous post on domestic violence:
http://www.patientedu.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d
and here is a press release with pie charts
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/42/15/31.2.full
Here is a list of a few hundred studies breaking down the numbers, you can look up individual ones if you like, but the researchers broke it down and said that almost all studies showed women were at least as aggressive if not more so.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
and here is a different study finding women more often the aggressors
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/941
If you're still not convinced i suggest you read some of Erin Pizzey's work, a woman who founded some of the first women's shelters and who found that many of the women there were just as violent as the men they left. She was kicked out of her feminist organizations and subjected to death threats for saying this.
Yet rulings like this: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_FyA4HAXVGIJ:www.law.berkeley.edu/files/BlumhorstAmicusBrief.doc+nomas+files+amicus+brief+blumhorst&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
pop up all over the states and the western world stating that since violence against men is a non issue womens shelters don't need to follow the law and admit men all the while ignoring that they aren't willing to spend any additional money for new shelter based on budget shortfalls.

I grabbed this link from one of my other forums, it contains the clip from the talk where they say an abused man deserved to have his penis cut off for trying to leave his wife. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP4VeMJp9pE&feature=player_embedded

Here is a case file where a boy was, by the legal definition, raped http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059 naturally he is the only one who will face the possibility of jail time. I have more cases I can grab if you like.

So women abuse more but it's more severe when women get abused? Not really sure if that helps your argument that much but ok.

Good job on the sources though (not sarcasm).

 

[renegade7]

No, we aren't. Women still have to deal with shit that men don't have to, and you can't say the same about the opposite. I have no idea why everyone on the internet is so against feminism.

Because the most vocal feminists are man-haters who think gender equality will occur only when all men have been castrated. Of course it's the vocal 0.01%, but when people have issues with feminists, they're usually referring to that demographic.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Feminism is a great movement. It began as an answer to the inequality between men and women and even now it pushes towards equality between the genders in every field.
But you also have some crazy women that want to be better than men. Not very good. You also have crazy men that treat women as merchandise. Not good at all.
So... what do you do?
Educate and try to root out the problem. A girl that is raised by a crazy feminist that believes in female supremacy is just as bad as a boy that is raised by a misogynist father that believes women should serve men in bed and kitchen.
.
Referring to the question - We are reaching complete equality, but there are many fields where we need to "fix". But overall, you will never reach full equality because women have tits, and men can walk around shirtless and show their wicked body.
.
EDIT: I've looked around the thread and I want to say something regarding domestic abuse-
Men are more inclined to refuse to report it than women. You know why.
The same reason why Women are much more aware of breast cancer than how men are aware of prostate cancer.

 

[Leadfinger]

On average in the U.S., a woman only makes 77% of her male counterparts. When woman start earning more than men, we might be able to start talking about the tables having turned.

 

[J-meMalone]

I think right now there is sexism towards both sides, however I feel women are currently worse off compared to men.

Also, here's a quandary. Men are often depicted, especially in sitcoms, as the characters that take much more abuse (both physical and emotional) from other characters. Is this misandry, "look at how incompetent men are!" Or is it misogyny, "Men can take the abuse, women cannot?"

I guess it would depend on the writer, but still, it makes you think.

 

[renegade7]

Sources? (I used Wikipedia)

Okay from a previous post on domestic violence:
http://www.patientedu.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d
and here is a press release with pie charts
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/42/15/31.2.full
Here is a list of a few hundred studies breaking down the numbers, you can look up individual ones if you like, but the researchers broke it down and said that almost all studies showed women were at least as aggressive if not more so.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
and here is a different study finding women more often the aggressors
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/941
If you're still not convinced i suggest you read some of Erin Pizzey's work, a woman who founded some of the first women's shelters and who found that many of the women there were just as violent as the men they left. She was kicked out of her feminist organizations and subjected to death threats for saying this.
Yet rulings like this: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_FyA4HAXVGIJ:www.law.berkeley.edu/files/BlumhorstAmicusBrief.doc+nomas+files+amicus+brief+blumhorst&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
pop up all over the states and the western world stating that since violence against men is a non issue womens shelters don't need to follow the law and admit men all the while ignoring that they aren't willing to spend any additional money for new shelter based on budget shortfalls.

I grabbed this link from one of my other forums, it contains the clip from the talk where they say an abused man deserved to have his penis cut off for trying to leave his wife. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP4VeMJp9pE&feature=player_embedded

Here is a case file where a boy was, by the legal definition, raped http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059 naturally he is the only one who will face the possibility of jail time. I have more cases I can grab if you like.

So women abuse more but it's more severe when women get abused? Not really sure if that helps your argument that much but ok.

Good job on the sources though (not sarcasm).

Not really, abusive women are far more likely to resort to emotional or non-physical abuse (rumor spreading, neglect, insults, yelling, etc.) whereas abusive men are more likely to cause direct physical harm (hitting, beating, etc). And when all forms of abuse are considered, there are more abusive women than abusive men.

 

[EvilPicnic]

Because of feminazis.

Wow. Thread got Godwin'd in 5 posts.

Feminists win this one...

 

[IndomitableSam]

Sexism is alive and well, for men and women. It all depends on the situation. As I said before, libraries are female-centric... So men are hired over women because of affirmative action. Also, where I live, you are given the chance to tell your potential job that you are a minority or disabled because you then get preference. I have lost out in jobs to both men and minorities. I graduated library school in 2009 and have worked in my field since, but places have hired people who graduated this past spring over me because they ticked one of the boxes. I may be bitter, but I understand the reasoning.

I've been unemployed for 4 months, and sometimes I wonder if I ticked a minority or disabled box if I'd be hired.

How you are treated now all depends on the situation. Or where you live, what you look like, etc. I would be happy if the world was color blind and ignored the different jiggly bits, but it won't happen.

Still, in North America, women and others have it much easier than other countries. Consider what this discussion would be like in the Middle East, or China, Africa or South America. For each place, the discussions would be totally different.

Personally, I'm happy to be a woman in Canada, but ... I am 28 and pursuing a career instead if a husband and kids, and I am looked down on for that. Older people think I should get married, friends of mine with kids disclude me and tell me I have it easy... My students always asked if I had a husband or kids...not if I had a degree or financial security and independence.

Women are still made to feel inadequate if we don't get married and have kids, like something is wrong with us. If someone asks a guy my age why he isn't married, it isn't followed by "Are you gay?", but people ask me that when I say I'm not married. Not wanting kids until I've pursued my own goals isn't the answer a woman can give without judgement.

 

[Hyper-space]

No, we aren't. Women still have to deal with shit that men don't have to, and you can't say the same about the opposite. I have no idea why everyone on the internet is so against feminism.

Well, men aren't that well off either. The mortality rate of males from 15-19 is twice as high compared to women, while from the ages of 20-24 it is three times as high (even though women have to live with the dangers and complexities of child-birth).[footnote]http://www.mbl.is/mm/gagnasafn/grein.html?grein_id=566292[/footnote]Then theres also incarceration and drug abuse rates, which are much, much higher when it comes to men than women.

All of this stems from the fact that there is a lot of negative and outright dangerous aspects to conforming with the traditional male gender-role, which includes dealing with emotional and psychological issues by repressing them (which is ostensibly the reason why more men are committed to mental hospitals and institutions than women) and being reckless to the point that it kills you.

And this is no secret, its been well documented with countless of studies and collections of data that prove that men suffer much more from physical, emotional and psychological issues than women, all of which can be easily connected to the typical stereotype of "man"

 

[oppp7]

No, we aren't. Women still have to deal with shit that men don't have to, and you can't say the same about the opposite. I have no idea why everyone on the internet is so against feminism.

Here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JA4EPRbWhQ&feature=related

They're not all like this, but like the annoying kids in certain gaming communities they tend to be the most vocal.

For the record, feminism now seems, to me at least, to be not about gender equality but female superiority.

Don't see many girls on the games that I play, but I really hope people aren't hating girls because of them being annoying on video games.

And the video seemed to just target specific examples of sexism.

Name one slightly significant thing invented by a woman. Go on, I'll wait.

I'm not sure what it exactly is, but I think testosterone is the big driver here.

Oh wow, ok, if you're going to use maleness as a source of bragging, go ahead and name one thing you've invented, or a reason that you AREN'T just taking credit for what others have done. Go on, I'll wait (for the suspension to end).

Yes, men probably did more inventing, but that's likely because women haven't been in a position to actually do anything until recently. And Rosalind Franklin [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalind_franklin]. I could probably find more but that's the only one I could think of off the top of my head.

 

[drisky]

Recently in my country, they enquired a large population of pupils as to how they felt about people being homosexuals and while only some 13% of the females found homosexuality offensive, I'm sad to say that close to 50% of the males had a problem with it.

I believe you on that, but at the same time, most of the girls that I knew that would either behave defensively around me, or refuse to talk to me, or be outright hostile all claimed that they didn't mind gays, but they were only considering gay men, and are different around gay women.

Even then, the number of people who would actually behave in a negative way is not the norm, and it's usually just a knee jerk reaction, and when you get to know most people, they sort of realise that it's not a big deal.

Of course, it's fully possible I have just been seriously unlucky in the people I've met!

Honestly, I think you are just unlucky. Statics show that out of lesbian, gay, and bisexual young people, lesbians are the most out, which is most likely do to more supportive environments then gay men. Bisexuals were the least out because they were to afraid of social rejection when they still have the option of going out with the opposite gender. I also just wanted to note that women tend to be far more supportive of transgender people as well. I've talked to a lot of people about this and heard a lot of opinions, and collectively gay men have it worse. Of course that does come with typical both ways gender double standards, such as much of the support does come form "lesbians are hot", and that lesbians, like all females, get less media exposer. Overall though I think it can be agreed that LBGT people have the hardest time of any minority group right now, even if I believe gay men have it harder socially, I far from consider it easy to be a lesbian.

 

[oppp7]

No, we aren't. Women still have to deal with shit that men don't have to, and you can't say the same about the opposite. I have no idea why everyone on the internet is so against feminism.

Because of feminazis. I know the movement, as a whole, demands equality, but them dumbshits are looking for supremacy.

Anyway, getting a job as an engineer (especially electrical engineering) is much easier as a woman. This is an unfortunate problem that we currently face.

Being the lazy, never-had-a-summer-job bastard that I am, I don't know much about affirmative action and all that, but is it really worse than having a worse biological setup (periods, pregnancy...), more prone to receiving violence (rape, spousal abuse...), and several other things I could mention, but am too lazy to elaborate on(lower income, larger share of housework, media problems, more strict social standards)?

Wait a second, back that train up.
Worse biological setup? What about testicular and prostate problems, they kill a fair amount of men each year. Also what about guys having that lovely extra problem of being prone to certain types of hernias due to the male set up?
More prone to violence? Last I checked in domestic cases women actually hit more often, it just happens that when guys hit they do more damage.
Lower income, a bit debatable, aren't women now the majority in a lot of high paying professions such as doctors, lawyers and whatnot?
Media problems? Please elaborate, because last I checked women in the media get away with a lot of crap that guys don't. An old guy calls some women nappy headed and a lynch mob goes after him. A bunch of women make fun of and demean a guy who gets his penis cut off by a spouse and its hilarious and "you go girl". If a guy did the same, he would be out of a job permanently in any media, but for women hey its cool because its empowering to them.

Breast cancer? And I doubt hernias are worse than pregnancy.
The second... I'd ask for sources but I didn't use any either (aside from Wikipedia). So I guess that's a draw?
Again, we're both talking out our asses.
I meant that women are always shown as highly sexualized in pretty much everything. You could say the same for men, but I don't think women are as ok about all their role models shown with huge boobs as men are with theirs with muscles (also, I've heard that overmuscled guys aren't that attractive to women, and that girls are attracted to asses anyways).
Special note on Don Imus: Agree that that was stupid. I think the thing was that he had said worse and "nappy headed hoes" was the straw that broke the camels back. Also, that may have been about racism as much as sexism.

A pregnancy doesn't destroy you for life. A Hernia will. A Pregnancy doesn't increase your odds exponentially for having another pregnancy. A Hernia does. If you have a hernia, you will have another, in the same place, it's only a matter of time. And that Hernia will increase the odds even more.

Hang on, asking my dad about this (he had a hernia)...

He says 1%. Are you talking about a different type (I think he had the weight lifting kind)?