It's almost as if she was raised with the idea in mind that breasts are not sex objects, despite her mother training her to some day impregnate herself. Though it actually makes sense, considering the fact she spent so little time around many people and half the stuff people do baffles her.
She probably spent most of her childhood running around the woods completely naked. She grew comfortable enough with her body and never learned to hide it in fear that people will stare or men will violently lose control of their own bodies at the sight of a boob.
I really like BlazBlue's designs, and yeah, that extends to finding several of the female characters visually appealing (e.g. Noel, Mu-12, Makoto). I'm not sure anything really justifies their designs in relation to this thread, but the game's tone is of exaggeration; visually, thematically, and in its (often brilliantly written) dialogue. A blonde, blue-eyed living-weapon-thing wearing a thong really doesn't seem out of place in that world...
And that's the sad part about it, some characters are likable but a part of me also knows "this is not realistic and may be systematic of something"
Let me put this into context, Until I saw your post, I wasn't going to post because the person I would use as a reference is very debatable
In game and supplemental side material, Makoto has been characterized as very upbeat with a deadpan streak around some people (cough, Kagura, cough), Extremely devoted to her friends, Smart enough to get into military academy on scholarship, strong enough to compete with an entire cast of insanely powerful people, and strong-willed enough to avoid losing her mind after being thrown into the void.
Issue is that I left out one thing that I think makes her somewhat popular in the fanfic community: she has been portrayed as a bisexual. Don't misunderstand, bisexuality is fine but a part of me is constantly thinking "my god, this is fetish bait" so i'm left between a rock and a hard place. One half says "this character is fun, lovable, and has a backstory that intrigues me", the other half is like "do I like this character for or despite of her kemonomini and underboob".
I really do not like this conversation because it can be so hard to justify why we like something but if we do, we may be seen as perverts
a bit off topic, but i think it's hilarious that going through the blazblue character roster is like reading off a list of geek fetishes
*puts on red striped carny suit*
step right up! step right up! we got all the girls and boys for your girls and boys needs! we got your:
hot vampire boys
vampire girls
lolis
shotas
pretty blonde boys
cat girls
big furry
small furry
petanko girls
transgendered girls
beef cake with only chest exposed always
robot girls
tentacle monsters
we even have the hulk!
yes sir, you wont find a better deal anywhere else! you dont want them! you need and we got themq! step right up to arcsys's blazblue emporium!
Another one I'm thinking of is possibly Fran from FFXII, although I'm not sure if she even qualifies for 'sexualized'.
On the one hand her design is somewhat silly and almost asking to be fetishized; but on the other, her presence and the tone of the game is so innocuous about it that it's just like "I look/dress this way", and the player's like " 'kay" and it's not really a thing beyond that. (unless the player fetishizes her, I guess)
Your not sure if Fran counts as sexualized? She's a bunny girl who wears metallic lingerie. How could she not be sexualized? Just because the in game characters don't acknowledge it does not mean it does not exist.
To be fair, that's arguably a Japanese thing in general... where character trope is character, and fanservice is a thing in and of itself. (BlazBlue CS is brilliantly written, btw - impenetrable plot aside)
And that's the sad part about it, some characters are likable but a part of me also knows "this is not realistic and may be systematic of something"
Let me put this into context, Until I saw your post, I wasn't going to post because the person I would use as a reference is very debatable
In game and supplemental side material, Makoto has been characterized as very upbeat with a deadpan streak around some people (cough, Kagura, cough), Extremely devoted to her friends, Smart enough to get into military academy on scholarship, strong enough to compete with an entire cast of insanely powerful people, and strong-willed enough to avoid losing her mind after being thrown into the void.
Issue is that I left out one thing that I think makes her somewhat popular in the fanfic community: she has been portrayed as a bisexual. Don't misunderstand, bisexuality is fine but a part of me is constantly thinking "my god, this is fetish bait" so i'm left between a rock and a hard place. One half says "this character is fun, lovable, and has a backstory that intrigues me", the other half is like "do I like this character for or despite of her kemonomini and underboob".
I really do not like this conversation because it can be so hard to justify why we like something but if we do, we may be seen as perverts
a bit off topic, but i think it's hilarious that going through the blazblue character roster is like reading off a list of geek fetishes
*puts on red striped carny suit*
step right up! step right up! we got all the girls and boys for your girls and boys needs! we got your:
hot vampire boys
vampire girls
lolis
shotas
pretty blonde boys
cat girls
big furry
small furry
petanko girls
transgendered girls
beef cake with only chest exposed always
robot girls
tentacle monsters
we even have the hulk!
yes sir, you wont find a better deal anywhere else! you dont want them! you need and we got them! step right up to arcsys's blazblue emporium!
Believe me, my friends and I make that joke as well. We have a robot guy(Tager), a good hearted idiot of a heroine (Noel), the tragic love interest (Tsubaki) the awesome but stupid pervert (Kagura), the Hikikomori catgirl scientist (Kokonoe), a living suit of armor (Hakumen) and my favorite, the world's biggest troll (Terumi)
Edit: and lets not forget one of the lastest additions: hot pants girl or as Tao calls her, Butt girl
To be fair, that's arguably a Japanese thing in general... where character trope is character, and fanservice is a thing in and of itself. (BlazBlue CS is brilliantly written, btw - impenetrable plot aside)
Yeah, it is a bit odd. Sometimes, this results in very memorable but simple characters (Ragna isn't exaclty orignal) and other times, it results in Senren Kagura levels of stupid
OP: I don't think you understand the word sexualization. You are trying to find positive reasons for something inherently wrong, for both genders.
There's nothing wrong with viewing a person as sexy, nothing wrong with a person being sexually attractive, but to be sexualized eliminates the person and personality. To be sexualized focuses only on what is physically attractive.
If the sexualized character is done wrong. It's not impossible for a character to have an inherently sexy design and have it be more than mindless fetish fuel. Granted a lot of people who make sexualized characters tend to screw it up and just do it to pander.
Lets see not going to go in deep on the sexualized thing and to keep the list short I am with my OG of awesome kickass while looking good female characters I am going with Chun Li.
I would have to go with Bayonetta too. Of all the sexualized characters, I still find her to be sexy and she has regular sized breast (yes I'm into boobies) unlike most of the DOA girls (even with their backstories it must be annoying fighting and your breast jiggle alot), Ivy from Soul Calibur, the Sorceress from Dragon Crown and etc. Also yes I know sexualize women don't have big breast all teh time.
Your not sure if Fran counts as sexualized? She's a bunny girl who wears metallic lingerie. How could she not be sexualized? Just because the in game characters don't acknowledge it does not mean it does not exist.
They reside in Eruyt village in the wood, and are forbidden to leave. As such, they have more tribal dress standards, like older non-urban human tribes. Her body has exaggerated characteristics, but they're not what we more commonly identify as sexual characteristics; and her sexual characteristics are as endowed as Penello's. Her species apparently value height so they have long limbs and tall ears, and they all wear metal leg braces with stilettos that emphasize their height, and they wear veils to cover their stomachs.
Here are the scenes in Eruyt:
http://youtu.be/1nW2J5edrWk?t=3h9m12s
Continued 3:21:10
As sexualisation goes, there's nothing to go on beside how she happens to look and dress. Is a woman in a bikini on a beach sexualized; or does that require the plumped characteristics, certain poses and angles, emphasized lighting and extra detail in certain areas, excessive skimpiness of the bikini and transparent context?
Note proportions in these cases... and not a single veil.
Subjectively I did not find her remotely sexualized when I played the game, and she isn't sexualized by the game as a character; but her visual design obviously baits fetishists. So I wasn't totally sure where it should lie between official sexualisation and fan sexualisation.
When everyone thinks "sexualization" they immediately think revealing clothes, ridiculous proportions, etc. But not all sexualization is physical.
Think about Alyx for a second. Shes Intelligent(upgrading dog) Strong, Brave and independent(fighting off the combine) Endearing and charming (with her goofy jokes etc) and Incredibly attractive, but realistically so.
But most of all she bonds with the player, showing deep feelings for the player, despite the fact that they haven't said anything.
She "likes" the player even though the player hasn't necessarily done anything to earn that.
Your not sure if Fran counts as sexualized? She's a bunny girl who wears metallic lingerie. How could she not be sexualized? Just because the in game characters don't acknowledge it does not mean it does not exist.
They reside in Eruyt village in the wood, and are forbidden to leave. As such, they have more tribal dress standards, like older non-urban human tribes. Her body has exaggerated characteristics, but they're not what we more commonly identify as sexual characteristics; and her sexual characteristics are as endowed as Penello's. Her species apparently value height so they have long limbs and tall ears, and they all wear metal leg braces with stilettos that emphasize their height, and they wear veils to cover their stomachs.
Here are the scenes in Eruyt:
http://youtu.be/1nW2J5edrWk?t=3h9m12s
Continued 3:21:10
As sexualisation goes, there's nothing to go on beside how she happens to look and dress. Is a woman in a bikini on a beach sexualized; or does that require the plumped characteristics, certain poses and angles, emphasized lighting and extra detail in certain areas, excessive skimpiness of the bikini and transparent context?
Note human proportions in all cases...
Subjectively I did not find her remotely sexualized when I played the game, and she isn't sexualized as a character; but her visual design obviously baits fetishists. So I wasn't totally sure where it should lie between official sexualisation and fan sexualisation.
Her race is entirely female, they all have long legs and ample breasts, once they reach ideal mating age they retain that appearance until they die, they almost exclusively wear clothing designed to mimic lingerie* (exceptionally classy lingerie, to be sure, but lingerie none the less), and they wear high heels at all times. Frankly it would be hard to create a race more sexualized than the Viera while still being able to justify it. It's very classy sexualization, with great lengths taken to justify the sexualization in universe, but definitely sexualization.
Lets see not going to go in deep on the sexualized thing and to keep the list short I am with my OG of awesome kickass while looking good female characters I am going with Chun Li.
what I meant was when guys say that Bayonetta is "empowering" which is fine, perhaps some women would even agree...but again its THEM saying, I would wager bayonetta is FOR the male gaze I don't think they always get it, don't get the difference in how female/male charachters are portrayed...like you kind of demonstrated here
This thread was purely about bringing up sexualized characters who were "done right", and for any female character that is sexualized there will always be a significant % of people who will agree that it was done for male gaze first and the "empowering" part being a low priority (if at all).
But I don't see why catering to male gaze is a negative thing considering it's roughly proportionate to the number of male consumers who enjoy/appreciate that stuff. Markets cater to consumers.
Vault101 said:
if anything the MAIN thing here is [b/]perspective[/b] I mean youve got guys telling us what we should and should not have a problem with?.....is that not..well problematic?
Like I said earlier this whole topic is so one-sided...it's all centred around female characters in fictional media, so people holding different stances on the same issue are bound to bump into each other and discuss/argue. Isn't that simply one person telling another person why (or why not) they shouldn't have a problem with it? That's usually what debate and discussion boils down to. I don't see it as problematic.
Vault101 said:
you know why Frozen was such a big deal? because its about Elsa and Anna, about their love..and not "Elsa and Anna and how they relate to a man" oh sure its ptetty simple...but as far as disney movies go its pleasantly subversive
See, I don't consider that as a big deal because I understand the reasons trends/tropes in media and why they exist. So I see Frozen as just another CG movie and judge it like just another CG movie. What I find weird is when people start rating the movie the best thing ever purely because it has emerged triumphantly as the ultimate statement of women not needing men (or something), to which I can only shrug my shoulders and say "umm...if you say so..." and slowly walk away.
Vault101 said:
want a good example? check out the show Orange is the new black
its got straight girls, white girls, black girls, young girls, old girls, skinny girls, fat girls, femminie girls, butch girls...all of them charachters with flaws, the show is about THEM first and foremost, and not male charachters, its from THEIR perspective
If you consider a show about diverse females such a huge deal, then that's what you are personally wanting in your media.
All of this comes across as a bit narrow-minded, like the Bechdel Test. When I look at a piece of media I don't judge it according to it's proportion of male/female characters or how inclusive it is of race/sexual orientation/etc, but that certainly seems to be the deciding factor for you. Fair enough, I can't really argue against that.
I judge media as a whole, a sum of it's parts.
Inclusivity is definitely the new hot topic but some people are pushing it a bit too far by implying that anything NOT inclusive of a certain race/gender/whatever is a direct message to that race/gender/etc that the creators must hate them. See the whole Nintendo Tomodachi Life fiasco. I don't really know what to say to such people.
Without a doubt Isabella from Dragon Age 2. Her sexuality is a core component of her character without it being an all defining, singular character trait.
Chris Tian said:
Inb4: This turns into a gigantic, massive, apocalyptic gender-sexism-feminism-debate-shitstorm.
I have to say Miranda from Mass Effect. Everybody complains how sexist her ass is or whatever, I have to admit I pay zero attention to such debates, but she is just super bad ass (no pun intended). She is smart, strong, skilled, resourcefull and of course crazy hot. She is genetically designed to be the perfect specimin of a human female, and attractiveness is of course part of that.
I gotta disagree with this. She states that her looks are a part of her genetic tailoring and that she uses them to get what she wants, but all she does is state it. Her characterisation is extremely nonsexual. Even when she seeks out casual sexual encounters she is cold, formal and professional, treating potential bedmates like job applicants. Her outfit makes no sense.
Her outfit makes perfect sense in the "she uses her looks to get what she wants" -regard. Just being attractive gives you an advantage in basically every human interaction. So looking good whenever you have to interact with people is a very big bart of using your looks to get what you want.
Except that she never actually does it. If she were shown doing so, or having a character where that would be a consistent and logical extension of one of her traits, that would be fine, but as it is it is clearly a half assed excuse to have ass shots.
Look at Isabella. Her provocative outfit is consistent with her character, so it's fine. She is flirty and promiscuous enough to rival Zevran. But Miranda? As i said, even when she seeks casual sex she does so mired in rigidity and formality. She is cold and practical, and not once in the game does she flirt casually or try to use her body to get what she wants.
I totally get your point about Isabella and the difference between the characters, and I agree.
It seems I didn't make myself clear. Being attractive makes people react more positive to you on a very basic and subconsious level. You don't have to do anything else, like flirt or things like that, just being attractive has already a very strong postitive effect.
That is what I mean when I say she uses her attractiveness to her advantage, she dresses attractive to subconsiously influence people.
Just dressing attractive is her using her attractiveness to her advantage.
Edit: I'm just noticing how appropriate your name is for having the opposite point of view to mine.
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