Skyrim Streamlining Removes Confusion, Says Bethesda

[Epona]

Also, if the idea of removing "choosing your skills" is to avoid confusion, how is adding perks that do the same thing (with a lesser degree of control) any better?

Honestly, if choosing your skill properly requires a restart, won't the perks be the same? How do you know which perks suck and which one don't until you try them?

Regarding the "they're just taking stuff away", I guess we must have different news sources. I see them removing things, but also adding other abilities and adding more items, so it evens out.

And while the word "confusing" might sound a bit out of place or even patronizing, I still see it more as Bethesda getting rid of certain abilities that get in the way of character development. Which, I guess, is why they got rid of the classes and it's now customizable from the get go. When choosing a class in Oblivion, all the fighter/rogue classes would have Athletics tagged as a major skill. Which was breaking even more a system that was flawed enough to begin with. I don't see it as being any more or less complex a system than Fallout, to be quite honest, ad that's mostly because fallout encouraged me from the start to make the type of character I want. We all find things we'd like to tweak in every character, but there's a huge diffence between "this laser gun looks great, wish I didn't spend all my skill points in regular guns, and thinking "why do I have to run to level up". One is choosing, and making you feel like creating a new character with a different build, the other just makes you feel that what you've built is useless.

You could create a custom class in Oblivion. How much more customizable would you like it?

Adding abilities. Let me ask you, when has Elder Scrolls been about collecting abilities? Yeah, MMO's do that, Bioware games do that but not Elder Scrolls. Adding items? I'll have to look into that more but I remember in both Morrowind and Oblivion that collecting items just meant having to run back and forth to a merchant or a storage chest. How is more items going to benefit us? Having more items in a game that allows you to carry 99 of every item is fine but Elder Scrolls isn't like that.

 

[k7avenger]

Well, can't argue with that Grimner. Now if they only give us back spears, I can rest easy.

 

[Epona]

I forget where I saw it but I saw a video of someone choosing perks in Skyrim and the first thought that came mind was: "That looks like the Crystarium from Final Fantasy XIII". That's not a compliment either.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izIKymAODt4[/youtube]


This? Looks like regular skill trees par for the course with most rpgs, just presented as constelations.

Which seems out of place in an Elder Scrolls game. Oblivion had small perks but they were passive and could be ignored (ie, a Journyman of Armorer could trade in broken equipment for full price or something like that).

I gotta tell ya, I didn't like the Sphere Grid in FFX and I liked the Crystarium in FF XIII even less. I do hope it only LOOKED like the Crystarium and doesn't actually play like it.

I also hope it doesn't boil down to Dragon Age/WoW skills, choose a super move that is really no different than they last super move you chose but it adds another pretty icon to your action bar.

What I read in there looks more stat based than anything, adding hit percentages to bash or block skills, or giving you disarm chances. Which if I recall, were present but not optional in Oblivion, and you gained them automatically. That makes it more costumizable, it seems.What Oblivion gave you automatically at 25, 50, 75, or 100 of each skill is now something that you can choose to improve or not. I read that as more depth and choice.

I get that but:

Choosing perks when you don't know how it will work in game = choosing skills when you don't know how it will work in game.

Seriously, they take out choosing skills to avoid confusion and then add in choosing perks. Does anyone see what I am getting at here?

 

[k7avenger]

Its kind of hard to comment on the state of their perk system when they haven't even revealed most of it to us.

 

[Epona]

Its kind of hard to comment on the state of their perk system when they haven't even revealed most of it to us.

True but it could very well be just like choosing abilities in an MMO or a Bioware game. That's my take on it anyway.

Everytime I sit down to play Dragon Age and I run into the severely limited level system and invisible walls, I think about Oblivion and the freedom I am granted in that game. It doesn't take long before I turn Dragon Age off.

"You get to choose an ability that let's you do a little more damage and has a different animation because you finally leveled up" doesn't do it for me. I like to raise my stats manually (and constantly, not just during a level up) and completely at will. I like to sneak around to increase that skill or ignore it altogether if that skill doesn't interest me. I like to swim to increase my running speed and I take great satisfaction in watching the world go by faster because I took the time to increase the athletics skill. Before long, I can sneak as fast as I was running at the beginning of the game.

I dunno, it's hard to explain the appeal of the Elder Scrolls games but the appeal is there and I do hope it isn't lost because Bethesda wants to make a better Bioware game.

 

[Epona]

I forget where I saw it but I saw a video of someone choosing perks in Skyrim and the first thought that came mind was: "That looks like the Crystarium from Final Fantasy XIII". That's not a compliment either.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izIKymAODt4[/youtube]


This? Looks like regular skill trees par for the course with most rpgs, just presented as constelations.

Which seems out of place in an Elder Scrolls game. Oblivion had small perks but they were passive and could be ignored (ie, a Journyman of Armorer could trade in broken equipment for full price or something like that).

I gotta tell ya, I didn't like the Sphere Grid in FFX and I liked the Crystarium in FF XIII even less. I do hope it only LOOKED like the Crystarium and doesn't actually play like it.

I also hope it doesn't boil down to Dragon Age/WoW skills, choose a super move that is really no different than they last super move you chose but it adds another pretty icon to your action bar.

What I read in there looks more stat based than anything, adding hit percentages to bash or block skills, or giving you disarm chances. Which if I recall, were present but not optional in Oblivion, and you gained them automatically. That makes it more costumizable, it seems.What Oblivion gave you automatically at 25, 50, 75, or 100 of each skill is now something that you can choose to improve or not. I read that as more depth and choice.

I get that but:

Choosing perks when you don't know how it will work in game = choosing skills when you don't know how it will work in game.

Seriously, they take out choosing skills to avoid confusion and then add in choosing perks. Does anyone see what I am getting at here?

I do. But I guess that the main difference would be, when I chose a perk in Fallout, I was already in the game, and getting a feel of what I would use, and more often than not, I'd have had a chance to fiddle with this or that technique. You're taking skills inside the game as you see what's more useful to you based on how the game's been going. It enables a sort of tweaking mid game that was not as prevalent with Oblivion. When you take the thief perk in Fallout, you've alreaqdy had the chance to see sneak or lockpick a few times, and decide if you want to build your character that way. That's my view, at least.

When I chose perks in Fallout 3, I had no idea how useful they would be and it took some restarts to get what I wanted. I see no difference between that system and choosing skills.

 

[Vault boy Eddie]

Well that's a shame, I enchanted all my equipment in Oblivion with feather, now i'll be able to do it to less stuff, still, doesn't change the fact that i'm buying it lol.

 

[EradiusLore]

the thing i liked most about playing daggerfall or morrowind (oblivion at a push) is that you had a fair amount of skills and you would end up trying to be the best in a certain set of skills (which means my character would be different from my friends) what im worried about is that im just going to end up with the magic guy, the warrior guy or the stealth guy. just generic types that everyone else will have. when you remove too much from an RPG like the elder scrolls you begin to lose what it was all about, making your own way through an open world.

 

[Kroxile]

I don't care what their excuse is, its dumbing down the game even further than Oblivion and all these statements making excuses for it just goes to show that even they know thats what it is.

I won't be dropping any money on this just because it has good visuals, but I'm sure enough people will to ensure that even more dumbed down versions of Elder Scrolls come out in the future.

 

[Royas]

I'm not sure how much more streamlined you can make an RPG. Oblivion's creation system was pretty simple, the skills were well described.... anyone so confused by Oblivion that they couldn't make a character they liked from the get go may not be bright enough to run a computer. At this point, I don't think you can call it "streamlining" to make it simpler. At this point, it's "dumbing down".

 

[k7avenger]

Its kind of hard to comment on the state of their perk system when they haven't even revealed most of it to us.

True but it could very well be just like choosing abilities in an MMO or a Bioware game. That's my take on it anyway.

Everytime I sit down to play Dragon Age and I run into the severely limited level system and invisible walls, I think about Oblivion and the freedom I am granted in that game. It doesn't take long before I turn Dragon Age off.

"You get to choose an ability that let's you do a little more damage and has a different animation because you finally leveled up" doesn't do it for me. I like to raise my stats manually (and constantly, not just during a level up) and completely at will. I like to sneak around to increase that skill or ignore it altogether if that skill doesn't interest me. I like to swim to increase my running speed and I take great satisfaction in watching the world go by faster because I took the time to increase the athletics skill. Before long, I can sneak as fast as I was running at the beginning of the game.

I dunno, it's hard to explain the appeal of the Elder Scrolls games but the appeal is there and I do hope it isn't lost because Bethesda wants to make a better Bioware game.

But we're not playing a Bioware game, we're playing an Elder Scrolls game. I have, at least, that much faith in Bethesda. I mean they DID make Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion. I don't know about you, but I always thought that the defining feature of an Elder Scrolls game was the open world, the exploration factor. I mean exploring the land of Morrowind WAS the game basically, and they did that well. Too many RPGs don't have that, when it could add so much to their world.

But, if I'm completely honest, my first thought when I heard that there was a perk system was, "No thanks, I played Fallout 3 and NV already."

 

[JET1971]

Am I missing out much? Does acrobatics actually do much? I have no idea even after several hours of play.

Dont pick acrobatics ... just jump everywhere you go. thats the easiest skill to level up.

Im all for streamlining because streamlining makes things cleaner and easier to use. removing things is not streamlining its dumbing down. They could leave every skill in the game and even add more if the interface is streamlined.

I think they should have you pick your class and thats it at the start of the game and put in an experiance points bar that governs when you level. your base skills like agility, inteligence, and strength levels as you use them more and the player never has to worry about putting points in there when they level up. then the other skill trees should be where you add points during a level up. such as your character uses light armor, a 1 handed sword and shield, and bows, with healing magic. thats 5 main skills that level the more you use them and since you mainly use them you may want to increase the weaker skills. basicly all skills level the more you use them, you level like most RPG by gaining experiance and can put the points gained from leveling into any skill from your main ones to ones you use but not as often but would still like to have them more than gimp. that would be allot better than oblivions system and you dont need to reroll soon after starting.

 

[Epona]

Its kind of hard to comment on the state of their perk system when they haven't even revealed most of it to us.

True but it could very well be just like choosing abilities in an MMO or a Bioware game. That's my take on it anyway.

Everytime I sit down to play Dragon Age and I run into the severely limited level system and invisible walls, I think about Oblivion and the freedom I am granted in that game. It doesn't take long before I turn Dragon Age off.

"You get to choose an ability that let's you do a little more damage and has a different animation because you finally leveled up" doesn't do it for me. I like to raise my stats manually (and constantly, not just during a level up) and completely at will. I like to sneak around to increase that skill or ignore it altogether if that skill doesn't interest me. I like to swim to increase my running speed and I take great satisfaction in watching the world go by faster because I took the time to increase the athletics skill. Before long, I can sneak as fast as I was running at the beginning of the game.

I dunno, it's hard to explain the appeal of the Elder Scrolls games but the appeal is there and I do hope it isn't lost because Bethesda wants to make a better Bioware game.

But we're not playing a Bioware game, we're playing an Elder Scrolls game. I have, at least, that much faith in Bethesda. I mean they DID make Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion. I don't know about you, but I always thought that the defining feature of an Elder Scrolls game was the open world, the exploration factor. I mean exploring the land of Morrowind WAS the game basically, and they did that well. Too many RPGs don't have that, when it could add so much to their world.

But, if I'm completely honest, my first thought when I heard that there was a perk system was, "No thanks, I played Fallout 3 and NV already."

Well, adding abilities sure sounds like a Bioware game or an MMO. I don't mind them taking out the class system because I can still choose to level my skills as a I like without having to make a career decision early on but perks (abilities) sort of make it like every other WRPG. How will these abilities work? Will you assign them to a hotkey, will they announce an action bar next? Having to choose perks (that you won't know much about in your first playthrough) is the same as having to choose skills that form a class.

I guess I am just not that crazy about collecting abilities instead of concentrating on character building. Oh well, if it sucks I can always go back and play the last two games.

 

[Epona]

Also, if the idea of removing "choosing your skills" is to avoid confusion, how is adding perks that do the same thing (with a lesser degree of control) any better?

Honestly, if choosing your skill properly requires a restart, won't the perks be the same? How do you know which perks suck and which one don't until you try them?

Regarding the "they're just taking stuff away", I guess we must have different news sources. I see them removing things, but also adding other abilities and adding more items, so it evens out.

And while the word "confusing" might sound a bit out of place or even patronizing, I still see it more as Bethesda getting rid of certain abilities that get in the way of character development. Which, I guess, is why they got rid of the classes and it's now customizable from the get go. When choosing a class in Oblivion, all the fighter/rogue classes would have Athletics tagged as a major skill. Which was breaking even more a system that was flawed enough to begin with. I don't see it as being any more or less complex a system than Fallout, to be quite honest, ad that's mostly because fallout encouraged me from the start to make the type of character I want. We all find things we'd like to tweak in every character, but there's a huge diffence between "this laser gun looks great, wish I didn't spend all my skill points in regular guns, and thinking "why do I have to run to level up". One is choosing, and making you feel like creating a new character with a different build, the other just makes you feel that what you've built is useless.

You could create a custom class in Oblivion. How much more customizable would you like it?

Adding abilities. Let me ask you, when has Elder Scrolls been about collecting abilities? Yeah, MMO's do that, Bioware games do that but not Elder Scrolls. Adding items? I'll have to look into that more but I remember in both Morrowind and Oblivion that collecting items just meant having to run back and forth to a merchant or a storage chest. How is more items going to benefit us? Having more items in a game that allows you to carry 99 of every item is fine but Elder Scrolls isn't like that.

You could. But they had premade classes. But, and this is going back to Morrowind, every single one of them was broken to begin with. Which is why all my cgaracters were adventurers in both games. But that just goes to show that the character design mechanics have been obsolete for at least two games. removing classes is adding choice instead of removing it, and as to what I think about the classes cut and why they're useless, I replied elsewhere on last page.


And by more items, I meant variety of them. Going from what Todd Howard said, the fact that body armor is just one piece allowed them to render more sets, and add more variety. Whether or not that turns out true remains to be seen, but it's certainly worth taking into consideration.

So because they had premade classes, you ignore the custom classes? You could build your character any way you liked. If you chose a premade class, don't blame the game.

More items? They need to get rid of worthless items, not add more. Remember all the items in Oblivion that were just there to add weight to your inventory but were worth nothing? What was their purpose? Decoration? Ha, good luck setting a pitcher perfectly on a table or shelf. It could be done but wasn't worth the effort.

 

[Epona]

Also, if the idea of removing "choosing your skills" is to avoid confusion, how is adding perks that do the same thing (with a lesser degree of control) any better?

Honestly, if choosing your skill properly requires a restart, won't the perks be the same? How do you know which perks suck and which one don't until you try them?

Regarding the "they're just taking stuff away", I guess we must have different news sources. I see them removing things, but also adding other abilities and adding more items, so it evens out.

And while the word "confusing" might sound a bit out of place or even patronizing, I still see it more as Bethesda getting rid of certain abilities that get in the way of character development. Which, I guess, is why they got rid of the classes and it's now customizable from the get go. When choosing a class in Oblivion, all the fighter/rogue classes would have Athletics tagged as a major skill. Which was breaking even more a system that was flawed enough to begin with. I don't see it as being any more or less complex a system than Fallout, to be quite honest, ad that's mostly because fallout encouraged me from the start to make the type of character I want. We all find things we'd like to tweak in every character, but there's a huge diffence between "this laser gun looks great, wish I didn't spend all my skill points in regular guns, and thinking "why do I have to run to level up". One is choosing, and making you feel like creating a new character with a different build, the other just makes you feel that what you've built is useless.

You could create a custom class in Oblivion. How much more customizable would you like it?

Adding abilities. Let me ask you, when has Elder Scrolls been about collecting abilities? Yeah, MMO's do that, Bioware games do that but not Elder Scrolls. Adding items? I'll have to look into that more but I remember in both Morrowind and Oblivion that collecting items just meant having to run back and forth to a merchant or a storage chest. How is more items going to benefit us? Having more items in a game that allows you to carry 99 of every item is fine but Elder Scrolls isn't like that.

You could. But they had premade classes. But, and this is going back to Morrowind, every single one of them was broken to begin with. Which is why all my cgaracters were adventurers in both games. But that just goes to show that the character design mechanics have been obsolete for at least two games. removing classes is adding choice instead of removing it, and as to what I think about the classes cut and why they're useless, I replied elsewhere on last page.


And by more items, I meant variety of them. Going from what Todd Howard said, the fact that body armor is just one piece allowed them to render more sets, and add more variety. Whether or not that turns out true remains to be seen, but it's certainly worth taking into consideration.

So because they had premade classes, you ignore the custom classes? You could build your character any way you liked. If you chose a premade class, don't blame the game.

More items? They need to get rid of worthless items, not add more. Remember all the items in Oblivion that were just there to add weight to your inventory but were worth nothing? What was their purpose? Decoration? Ha, good luck setting a pitcher perfectly on a table or shelf. It could be done but wasn't worth the effort.

A) I never used a premade class myself. But if they're flawed and badly tweaked and make newcomers get stuck with bad stats, surely it's the game's fault for offering such broken mechanics in the first place. You're picking up Oblivion for the first time, are not sure how it all works, but decide you want to fight and cast spells so you pick battlemage because it's to be expected the premade classes are there to ease you into the game. Instead, what happens is the exact opposite, and that is the game's fault for having shitty custom classes.

b) About the items... so, they should streamline it and be done away with those? Then, you might have fans saying that it was *gasp* dumbed down, and that Elder scrolls 6 would only allow you to carry broadswords in the inventory, and that they were taking away your choice to carry furniture around.

A) That's a Bioware tactic, instead of fixing the classes they eliminated them.

B) Well, if they can eliminate, instead of fix the class system...

They could make those things worth something. Most players just ignored those items when they realized they were worthless, I would imagine.

 

[Pierce Graham]

Here's crazy idea: How about NOT removing skills that work perfectly well, AND add the perks? Madness, I know...