Skyrim Streamlining Removes Confusion, Says Bethesda

[chinangel]

You know, looking through the comments makes me see only one thing: "THEY CHANGED IT! IT SUCKS NOW! WE WANTED THE EXACT SAME GAME!"

-_-

Seriously people, if you want the old experience then go play the old game. The developers ARE trying to attract new gamers, not personally screw you over. They above all things want to make the games FUN, and yet so many of you re whining and complaining about the smallest thing, making it seem like there is no possible way the game could be good, WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING IT!

On topic.

Oblivion was kinda bad for having a lot of semi-useless skills. Like mercantile. Really? Really? Why do I want to specialize in dragging stuff around. I mean I know it's an option but it doesn't sound fun. I play elder scroll games to whack things, not play a merchant sim.

Yeah cause trying to attract new gamers has such a fantastic track record. Why of why would we ever be concerned?

Because new gamers mean more money for the companies. which mean bigger games are released more often. Whih means our hobbies are supported, it also helps to break down the stereotype of the 'fat pimply nerd in the basement'.

Or would you rather gaming be an exclusive members-only club that's virtually impenetrable by any but the most dedicated, with a tiny community offering them what they want due to a lack of audience and cashflow?

More money for who (not you)? Bigger games streamlined even further for who (not you)? Yeah, what is the benefit to individual gamers.

Is it really a good practice to gain new gamers with every game only to tell them that what they liked in the game will be removed in the next game to attract new gamers? It's a vicious cycle.

so it's better to keep things exclusive and have the gaming community shrink smaller and smaller and become this members-only clb that eventually vanishes because of a lack of a fanbase? And don't say 'there will always be gamers' because if you keep others out, there won't be.

Keep others out? No one is stopping people from buying Morrowind or Oblivion. Dumbing down games loses gamers too and at some point you lose more than you gain.

For example, marriage in an ES game? What is this, The Sims or Fable? Neither of those games interest me and if Skyrim or the next ES game gets too close to either of those games then I am out. I have no interest in farting or making my Sim go to the bathroom so he won't wet himself.

You keep others out when you make a game too difficult to play. Elder Scrolls games are very intimiating for new players, and many decide it's not worth it. And for good reason too.

As I said earlier, it just seems that developers can do nothign right in the eyes of gamers. Gamers will throw a temper tantrum if even teh smallest thing about the game is changed. So while we want devs to listen to us about what we like in a game, it's hard not to see why they choose not to, when we act like a bunch of spoiled 6 year olds.

 

[Epona]

You know, looking through the comments makes me see only one thing: "THEY CHANGED IT! IT SUCKS NOW! WE WANTED THE EXACT SAME GAME!"

-_-

Seriously people, if you want the old experience then go play the old game. The developers ARE trying to attract new gamers, not personally screw you over. They above all things want to make the games FUN, and yet so many of you re whining and complaining about the smallest thing, making it seem like there is no possible way the game could be good, WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING IT!

On topic.

Oblivion was kinda bad for having a lot of semi-useless skills. Like mercantile. Really? Really? Why do I want to specialize in dragging stuff around. I mean I know it's an option but it doesn't sound fun. I play elder scroll games to whack things, not play a merchant sim.

Yeah cause trying to attract new gamers has such a fantastic track record. Why of why would we ever be concerned?

Because new gamers mean more money for the companies. which mean bigger games are released more often. Whih means our hobbies are supported, it also helps to break down the stereotype of the 'fat pimply nerd in the basement'.

Or would you rather gaming be an exclusive members-only club that's virtually impenetrable by any but the most dedicated, with a tiny community offering them what they want due to a lack of audience and cashflow?

More money for who (not you)? Bigger games streamlined even further for who (not you)? Yeah, what is the benefit to individual gamers.

Is it really a good practice to gain new gamers with every game only to tell them that what they liked in the game will be removed in the next game to attract new gamers? It's a vicious cycle.

so it's better to keep things exclusive and have the gaming community shrink smaller and smaller and become this members-only clb that eventually vanishes because of a lack of a fanbase? And don't say 'there will always be gamers' because if you keep others out, there won't be.

Keep others out? No one is stopping people from buying Morrowind or Oblivion. Dumbing down games loses gamers too and at some point you lose more than you gain.

For example, marriage in an ES game? What is this, The Sims or Fable? Neither of those games interest me and if Skyrim or the next ES game gets too close to either of those games then I am out. I have no interest in farting or making my Sim go to the bathroom so he won't wet himself.

You keep others out when you make a game too difficult to play. Elder Scrolls games are very intimiating for new players, and many decide it's not worth it. And for good reason too.

As I said earlier, it just seems that developers can do nothign right in the eyes of gamers. Gamers will throw a temper tantrum if even teh smallest thing about the game is changed. So while we want devs to listen to us about what we like in a game, it's hard not to see why they choose not to, when we act like a bunch of spoiled 6 year olds.

Developers develop games because it's what they get paid to do. Gamers complain about games because we pay money for games. Don't act like developers are doing us a favor.

If people couldn't figure out the 360 version of Oblivion then I don't know what to say. You say that Elder Scrolls is intimidating for new players. I started with Morrowind and learning the game was part of the fun but if players can start with Morrowind, then they can start with Oblivion. No need to dumb it down further lest your going for the Wii party games crowd.

 

[A Gent of Villainous Intent]

I think -four- skills have been removed. Dear God, people. Four. And what are these four?

1: Hand to Hand - Okay, who really cares? Hand to Hand was useless in Morrowind and Oblivion anyway.

2: Mysticism - yeah, hasn't really been so much 'removed' as 'integrated into other spell lists' Why? Because Mysticism wasn't it's own magic set, it was just 'Yeah, all this other crap over here...'

3: Acrobatics - Okay, so I don't have to bunny hop everywhere? What's the downside?

4: Athletics - So now at early levels I don't move at a snail's pace? What's the downside?

The point is that they keep removing skills. Sequals are supposed to ADD or IMPROVE, not remove all the time. Consider how many skills the Elder Scrolls had. Then they removed a bunch from Morrowind in Oblivion. Now more from Skyrim. So what? come Elder Scrolls 6, we'll only have three: Weapons, Armor, and Magic? Because Bethesda will have removed them all?

\

Their adding in Dragons and Beards

WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT!

 

[WaysideMaze]

Anyone who wants their RPGs more complicated are using the wrong medium to play RPGs. Pen and paper D&D games still exist in almost every town. Go find your local dungeon master and stop whining that video games are being streamlined and not giving you obtuse redundant menus full of raw numbers and crap.

Games are not and should not be catered to your exact level of "dumbing down". If that's how you look at it, you are doing it wrong.

I wanted to say something, but you've vocalized my points so well. So instead, I'm just gonna say 'this'.

Can't wait for skyrim

 

[Epona]

I like how people find themselves to be better than the professional gamedesigners. Yes it is easy with hindsight but when you are making a game not so much. I welcome this and I am soooo going to buy it because... well, this will explain my feelings for it no matter what happens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9eGtyqz4gY

So, I am biased, not going to argue over that but let's just wait till the game is out then you can rage all you want over the stuff. Kinda like Dragon Age 2... Talk about Streamlining and simplifying all at once! ^^ I raged... I raged hard.

One doesn't need to be a professional game designer to know what they like. Waiting until the game is out to communicate what we want and don't want would be stupid. The game is in development and this development information is likely being put out there purposely to help them get a reaction on certain aspects being developed.

 

[Ulixes Dimon]

...except that the target audience of this game, by which I mean RPG fans, already know and understand the systems involved in an RPG. That's the beauty of creating a game in this style is that you can have the target audience be people who undestand and are experienced with the material already; you do not introduce new gamers to an RPG to start with.

Surely the nuances of the mechanics change from game to game. I made a character on Oblivion and when I posted my choices on a forum I was chided for having picked some 'useless' skills and having made some stupid choices.

Perhaps It's just me then, but I find that in a more basic RPG like the Elder Scrolls series, basic mechanics and skillsets tend to be quite similar in purpose and use. I've been playing RPGs since I was a kid, and I'm experienced with much more complex systems such as AD&D 2.0, so it may just be me. Don't mean to cause any offense for anyone.

Edit:

See look, Bethesda is just trying to make the game better. This reminds of how people whined about the loot system being removed from Mass Effect 2, even though it was just annoying and didn't add anything to the first game at all.

Except that there's a difference between removing bad features because they're bad, and removing good features because they're too lazy to make people understand what they are.

They didnt remove anything really. They just designed it so you can raise skills and stats later by using the correlated skills and such. Basically bethesda wanted to design the game so the player can switch classes at any time simply by focusing on different skills and perks.

 

[lowkey_jotunn]

I don't mind complexity, but Oblivion's stat mechanics were batshit retarded. When the optimal build requires you to pick major skills that you never use so you can better control your leveling, something is VERY wrong...

This . So very much this.

My first Oblivion character took "Major Skills" that were integral to the play style I wanted. Athletics, Acrobatics, Blade, Heavy Armor, Restoration, few others, but basically stuff that fit the style I was going for. I leveled up VERY quickly (which seemed ok) and got +2s and +3s at best in my stats at level up (didn't know any better at the time)

Before I knew it, I was level 10+. Little did I know, monsters were leveling up around me and quickly became MUCH stronger than I had any business fighting. It was very un-fun to have to sit and hack at the most basic of enemies for several minutes each.

After some reading, I created a new character, same play style, but picked "major Skills" that I would never ever use. That ended up being much more fun and a much more enjoyable playing experience.


And some people don't see a problem with this model? I for one welcome our new Streamlined overlords.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I don't mind complexity, but Oblivion's stat mechanics were batshit retarded. When the optimal build requires you to pick major skills that you never use so you can better control your leveling, something is VERY wrong...

This . So very much this.

My first Oblivion character took "Major Skills" that were integral to the play style I wanted. Athletics, Acrobatics, Blade, Heavy Armor, Restoration, few others, but basically stuff that fit the style I was going for. I leveled up VERY quickly (which seemed ok) and got +2s and +3s at best in my stats at level up (didn't know any better at the time)

Before I knew it, I was level 10+. Little did I know, monsters were leveling up around me and quickly became MUCH stronger than I had any business fighting. It was very un-fun to have to sit and hack at the most basic of enemies for several minutes each.

After some reading, I created a new character, same play style, but picked "major Skills" that I would never ever use. That ended up being much more fun and a much more enjoyable playing experience.


And some people don't see a problem with this model? I for one welcome our new Streamlined overlords.

Although to be fair this is because of Oblivion's leveling system, not because of the system being too complex or anything. Morrowind was fine with this issue.

 

[Epona]

I don't mind complexity, but Oblivion's stat mechanics were batshit retarded. When the optimal build requires you to pick major skills that you never use so you can better control your leveling, something is VERY wrong...

This . So very much this.

My first Oblivion character took "Major Skills" that were integral to the play style I wanted. Athletics, Acrobatics, Blade, Heavy Armor, Restoration, few others, but basically stuff that fit the style I was going for. I leveled up VERY quickly (which seemed ok) and got +2s and +3s at best in my stats at level up (didn't know any better at the time)

Before I knew it, I was level 10+. Little did I know, monsters were leveling up around me and quickly became MUCH stronger than I had any business fighting. It was very un-fun to have to sit and hack at the most basic of enemies for several minutes each.

After some reading, I created a new character, same play style, but picked "major Skills" that I would never ever use. That ended up being much more fun and a much more enjoyable playing experience.


And some people don't see a problem with this model? I for one welcome our new Streamlined overlords.

This had nothing to do with the skills themselves but with leveled monsters and loot. As was mentioned, Morrowind did just fine with the same skill system. In fact, Oblivion's level system was an example of Bethesda trying to make it easier for new players. Apparently new players to Morrowind couldn't understand that enemies are easier/harder based on the region so Bethesda decided to make all enemies be at your level. Anyone who has played a JRPG before the PS2 era (when there were world maps you could roam around on) knows the different regions have different (sometimes harder) enemies but I guess XBOX 1 players weren't Final Fantasy fans.

 

[Zarkov]

I'm only defending Skyrim on the basis that it's not going to be as bad as some people think, not because I'm a "fanboy" or whatever else.

And how did you come to that conclusion?
The game is not even released and you still are thinking it is the second coming of christ.
Also, if you hate confusion then manuals do exist. Why should everyone suffer because of some bloke who could not understand the use of conjuration, athletics or acrobatics

Okay, what? I did say that I was defending it on the basis that it isn't going to be as bad as people thought, didn't I? Hmm...

Anyway, when playing a video game one should not have to consult a manual. You are not putting together machinery, you're enjoying a form of entertainment. When I go to watch a movie or read a book, is there a need for a manual on how to read or watch the piece of entertainment?

Playing a game should be a fluid and solid experience that requires no outside knowledge besides the native ability to use a controller. Having "some bloke" consult a manual each time a question arises could very well ruin the experience. Having to check a manual completely ruins the immersion the game would have been striving to achieve.

Besides, is streamlining such a bad thing? You may sacrifice a certain skill that you may have enjoyed in the previous game, but honestly is the absence of a skill or a certain function the end of the game for you? I've played every TES game to date; not only that, but also the Fallout games. I also know the pain of creating multiple characters not realizing on the first go through what I really enjoyed; I think this change should be accepted with open arms not a fist.

I make games myself, and the best games made are the ones that anyone can enjoy without trouble or agonizing confusion.

 

[Zarkov]

You can't fault them for wanting money,

No, but there's a difference between doing it for the money and doing it for the art.

There's no art in over-complication and stupid confusion. Art should be accessible to everyone, regardless of background.

Morrowind is hardly overcomplicated.
People just bitched because they had to actually read the journal to find anything.

I don't think you quite understand what the original subject matter (or what I was referring to at least) was; In character creation, one is confronted with many skills and traits which may seem explanatory in the name, but actually are not. Choosing the "wrong" combination of skills for your character is consequently a high chance especially to those who haven't played a game similar to it.

For example, I had no idea what the magic of mysticism was when I first started playing the game. As I played, I soon found out that the character I envisioned had no use for the ability, and I had mistakenly put it as a major skill. I eventually restarted and made a new character to better fit what I wanted to achieve.

Bethesda is trying to get rid of this; they never want to hear someone restart their game 3 to 4 hours in. That's why this new system is better for everyone, even the experienced TES players.

 

[Zarkov]

You keep others out when you make a game too difficult to play. Elder Scrolls games are very intimiating for new players, and many decide it's not worth it. And for good reason too.

As I said earlier, it just seems that developers can do nothign right in the eyes of gamers. Gamers will throw a temper tantrum if even teh smallest thing about the game is changed. So while we want devs to listen to us about what we like in a game, it's hard not to see why they choose not to, when we act like a bunch of spoiled 6 year olds.

Yes, god forbid GAMERS voice their opinions on what they want to see in the GAMES they play. They deserve to be ignored for that.

This is exactly why such a large disconnect has formed between the customer and the developer in this industry.

My requests are simple: ADD features in your games. ADD more features in the sequels. Never REMOVE anything. If the original game sold well and was well received by critics and players, that means they want to see more of the same, with extra stuff tacked on. Not X removed so that Y could be added.

So I'M FINE with it if you want to add a longer, more in-depth tutorial. Just suggest to new players that maybe they should steer clear of the advanced stuff. That doesn't mean you have to remove the advanced stuff entirely because there might be 10% of the player base that can't grasp it. It's like trying to fix the shape of a cake mold with a chainsaw.

Okay. There is some flawed logic in your post --- Adding features and improving are NOT directly correlated. Yes, a new feature may improve the game, but a new feature could similarly ruin a game. If features and functions were never removed, the game could never advance. Good ratings and the amount of copies sold doesn't mean that any particular function in the game was responsible for it. If a function deemed better off without, then the logical path is to remove the function. Bethesda may not get everything right, but they sure damn well are trying.

And if games only improved by ADDING, then they might as well make DLCs for their sequels. The point is to IMPROVE, not add.

In chinangel's defense, he's trying to express (correct me if I'm wrong) that some features being removed in a game just aren't worth complaining about. Take for example the skill Hand to hand. That skill was definitely useless; I wanted to make a character that only used hand to hand, but in both previous titles it's been near impossible unless I wore armor that I god-modded in or I obtained so far in the game that there had been no use improving the skill.
It's not a voice of opinion, it's a petty complaint only for those who get a little butthurt because their sequel is advancing, but just slightly off to what they wanted.

And, to be honest? There has never been a company better about their community than Bethesda. Bethesda welcomes modding and tampering of their game with full support; they listen to their fans while improving and planning for their next game --- they even view mods and wonder how the more popular ones work so well and how they could be fit into their next game within reason.

And really, there isn't a divide by nature in the industry. It really varies between each and every dev studio out there.

 

[Zarkov]

On the one hand, I feel the outrage is blown out of proportion.

On the other hand, "streamlining" has somewhat ruined the RPG genre for me.

Classic RPG: Weapon, Shiuld (If applicable) Helmet, Body armor, Gauntlet/ring.
Modern RPG: Weapon, Accessory Type 1, Accessory Type 2.

I call the modern RPG method "the FF7 formula" because that was the first game I played to have such a dumbed down equipment system. I blame it for me being the only one to care about defense these days. People got used to it and because of it, RPGs have degenerated into "kill them first, kill them fast" which is a crappy formula since it renders things like poison and other DOTs useless.

That said, let's look at Morrowind.

Helmet
Torso
Gloves
Shield
Right Pauldron
Left Pauldron
Greaves
Boots
Robes (you could wear them over armor)
Rings

Now let's look at Oblivion

Helmet
Torso (includes pauldrons)OR Robes
Gloves (Several robes negate gloves)
Greaves (Cannot be worn under robes)
Boots (Several robes negate boots)
Shield
Rings

Now let's look at Skyrim

Helmet
Body (Chest, Greaves, and Pauldrons as one item)
Gloves
Boots
Shield



You see my point. They diminish the customizing from too many angles. First off, via enchanting, Morrowind had more potential, as they also removed more effects like Levitation, HP regeneration, and the like from Oblivion (You could cast an HP regen spell but couldn't get passive gains from armor) Secondly, from an aesthetic standpoint, what if you only wanted, say, a single heavy pauldron on your robe, atop light armor? I was rolling with that for quite some time, actually.

Streamlining IS bad, and you can blame the modern mindset of gamers for it.

It ruins the game for you? Seriously? I'm sorry, but I can't see such trivial features ruining anything for me. Would I prefer the former? Sure. But Skyrim as I can tell is adding way too much for me to even care about little things such as the amount that you can put on and off.

And besides, the latter can be (and is) solved with the varied amount of chest pieces that will appear in Skyrim. Remember Fallout 3, and the apparel while not spread out but unique in and of its own? Skyrim will have a similar wardrobe.

Streamlining CAN be bad, but it doesn't always have to be. And in this case? It's a petty complaint rather than a huge issue when you can't wear two different gauntlets on your hands.

And however I liked the freedom that Morrowind had, to me at almost became a headache when trying to switch armor or trying to get a full set of armor that actually appealed to me. Personally, I love what's happening. Less headache is better for immersion. Freedom isn't necessarily better, more as what you do with freedom can improve a game. And a million different pieces to go on your body definitely doesn't improve immersion. It's more of a personal taste, which I'm sure a mod will meet you half way anyway. [Which is one of the reasons modding is so heavily supported in Bethesda games.]

 

[Zarkov]

You know, looking through the comments makes me see only one thing: "THEY CHANGED IT! IT SUCKS NOW! WE WANTED THE EXACT SAME GAME!"

-_-

Seriously people, if you want the old experience then go play the old game. The developers ARE trying to attract new gamers, not personally screw you over. They above all things want to make the games FUN, and yet so many of you re whining and complaining about the smallest thing, making it seem like there is no possible way the game could be good, WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING IT!

On topic.

Oblivion was kinda bad for having a lot of semi-useless skills. Like mercantile. Really? Really? Why do I want to specialize in dragging stuff around. I mean I know it's an option but it doesn't sound fun. I play elder scroll games to whack things, not play a merchant sim.

Yeah cause trying to attract new gamers has such a fantastic track record. Why of why would we ever be concerned?

Because new gamers mean more money for the companies. which mean bigger games are released more often. Whih means our hobbies are supported, it also helps to break down the stereotype of the 'fat pimply nerd in the basement'.

Or would you rather gaming be an exclusive members-only club that's virtually impenetrable by any but the most dedicated, with a tiny community offering them what they want due to a lack of audience and cashflow?

More money for who (not you)? Bigger games streamlined even further for who (not you)? Yeah, what is the benefit to individual gamers.

Is it really a good practice to gain new gamers with every game only to tell them that what they liked in the game will be removed in the next game to attract new gamers? It's a vicious cycle.

Well, if this "you" person happens to be in that exclusive memebers-only club, then I say who cares.

Honestly, the nit-picking going on with this game seriously makes me wonder about the maturity of the fans. The game HAS TO ADVANCE, not stay stagnant because of some grumpy fans.

Hell, I've played all of the TES games and I'm gonna love the streamlining done here.

 

[Pierce Graham]

How about KEEPING those skills, and ADDING beards and dragons. If they don't work, IMPROVE them, don't remove them. It's just Bethesda being lazy. They did the same thing with Morrowind to Oblivion by removing Medium Armor, Unarmored, Enchant, Axe, Spear and Short Blade. Just being lazy.

 

[Epona]

You know, looking through the comments makes me see only one thing: "THEY CHANGED IT! IT SUCKS NOW! WE WANTED THE EXACT SAME GAME!"

-_-

Seriously people, if you want the old experience then go play the old game. The developers ARE trying to attract new gamers, not personally screw you over. They above all things want to make the games FUN, and yet so many of you re whining and complaining about the smallest thing, making it seem like there is no possible way the game could be good, WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING IT!

On topic.

Oblivion was kinda bad for having a lot of semi-useless skills. Like mercantile. Really? Really? Why do I want to specialize in dragging stuff around. I mean I know it's an option but it doesn't sound fun. I play elder scroll games to whack things, not play a merchant sim.

Yeah cause trying to attract new gamers has such a fantastic track record. Why of why would we ever be concerned?

Because new gamers mean more money for the companies. which mean bigger games are released more often. Whih means our hobbies are supported, it also helps to break down the stereotype of the 'fat pimply nerd in the basement'.

Or would you rather gaming be an exclusive members-only club that's virtually impenetrable by any but the most dedicated, with a tiny community offering them what they want due to a lack of audience and cashflow?

More money for who (not you)? Bigger games streamlined even further for who (not you)? Yeah, what is the benefit to individual gamers.

Is it really a good practice to gain new gamers with every game only to tell them that what they liked in the game will be removed in the next game to attract new gamers? It's a vicious cycle.

Well, if this "you" person happens to be in that exclusive memebers-only club, then I say who cares.

Honestly, the nit-picking going on with this game seriously makes me wonder about the maturity of the fans. The game HAS TO ADVANCE, not stay stagnant because of some grumpy fans.

Hell, I've played all of the TES games and I'm gonna love the streamlining done here.

No, the "you" refers to the gamer. More money for Bethesda doesn't help YOU. Bigger games streamlined for non ES fans, not YOU. If you happen to like the streamlined changes, that's fantastic but don't expect everyone to feel the same.

Honestly, all the people who think no one should criticize the changes makes me question the maturity of some of the fans. I guess we should all just shower praise on Bethesda or keep our mouths shut? If the game fails because no one spoke up about the bad things during development, then there will be mo more ES games.

 

[Pierce Graham]

Its the fact that by Bethesda slowly removing these items, in a future Elder Scrolls we'll have this: No armor pieces, just one suit that covers everything, only ONE sword, ONE bow, ONE ax, and only three skills: Weapon, Armor, and Magic. Because of idiots who whine "It's too hard! Too confusing! We want the game to hold our hand do everything because thinking is hard!" Then they proceed to sniff glue bang their head on a wall.
Okay maybe not, but the fun of an RPG in customization. By removing it, you only irritate the fanbase. I have no problem with improving it. But if something doesn't work, IMPROVE it, don't remove it altogether. Bethesda is just being lazy.