So apparently JonTron is a racist

[Dizchu]

The thing is that most of the time as of late, the explanations from the left for the discrepancy are rather accusatory (institutional racism, discrimination by the justice system and police force, slavery) toward the white population and simply ignore the real problems. Some issues (such as poor funding for inner city schools) are the fault of the government or others, but a majority of the problems rest on the shoulders of the minorities themselves.

"A majority of the problems rest on the shoulders of the minorities themselves". [citation needed]

How so? You even concede that the government is at least partly to blame, which means it shouldn't rest on the shoulders of the minorities. How do you know that systemic racism and discrimination aren't the "real problems"? What are the "real problems"? Because if it's poor funding then that's exactly what the "SJWs" are talking about.

In African American communities, there are rampant problems with single parenthood and general poor parenting. Part of the issue comes from poor funding to public schools (as I said before), but it also comes down to the responsibility of the parents and youth to receive as good of an education as possible.

Again, you concede that the problem is funding. How does one get more funding without less disadvantaged groups chipping in?

A positive example of a minority community is (generally) the Asian community; on average, they work hard, accept the societal norms of America, and generally lead good lives as a result.

Depends on which Asians you mean, I'm assuming you mean far-east Asians. It's worth keeping in mind that the ancestors of Asian-Americans were mostly immigrants while the ancestors of African-Americans were not, and that makes a huge difference.

Saying these things are deemed "racist" though, so it's just easier to say that the whole country is out to make the lives of minorities difficult.

But that's not what people are saying. People are saying that the ancestry of certain groups (specifically blacks) as well as the societal stigma against them puts them at a disadvantage. You yourself agree that poor education opportunities leaves them at a disadvantage but it even goes further than that with things like lead poisoning which can stunt mental development and increase aggression.

I mean yeah I'm sick of all white people being blamed for this stuff too but honestly it's unfair to expect certain minority groups to just "sort everything out" when they aren't the ones that caused the problems in the first place.

 

[EquestrianGeneral]

Part of the reason why there are so many black single mothers is because their partners are vastly more likely to go to jail for petty things like driving with a broken taillight or failing to use a seat belt.

In 2010, there were approximately 38 million African Americans in the US according to Census data; in 2010, about 1.1 million African American adults were arrested for offenses that did NOT include anything (everything from murder to gambling) of serious note. This is only 3% of the population, hardly significant enough to explain away the epidemic of irresponsibility that we are seeing.

"A majority of the problems rest on the shoulders of the minorities themselves". [citation needed]

If a white male grew up in a household with a single mother, went to a school that was poorly funded, and still made little effort to apply himself and achieve higher education, I don't think that many people would have much sympathy for him. In general, the American ideology is to work hard and to make a life for yourself. It would be insane to say that every African American falls into this category, but I'm sure that a number do.

You even concede that the government is at least partly to blame, which means it shouldn't rest on the shoulders of the minorities. How do you know that systemic racism and discrimination aren't the "real problems"? What are the "real problems"? Because if it's poor funding then that's exactly what the "SJWs" are talking about.

I said PARTLY to blame. That does not mean that the groups that are affected are completely free of responsibility for creating good lives for themselves.

Again, you concede that the problem is funding. How does one get more funding without less disadvantaged groups chipping in?

PART of the problem is funding, again. I'm fine with the government increasing funding for schools in general; however, the situation is not that simple. Partially, school funding is based on performance of the students, and if the students of these schools are performing poorly, then they get less funding. In part, this is a vicious cycle, but there is some concerning truth to it; it's not entirely unreasonable for the government to be unsure about investing in them.

But that's not what people are saying. People are saying that the ancestry of certain groups (specifically blacks) as well as the societal stigma against them puts them at a disadvantage. You yourself agree that poor education opportunities leaves them at a disadvantage but it even goes further than that with things like lead poisoning which can stunt mental development and increase aggression.

I mean yeah I'm sick of all white people being blamed for this stuff too but honestly it's unfair to expect certain minority groups to just "sort everything out" when they aren't the ones that caused the problems in the first place.

I'm not sure how seriously lead poisoning affects the African American population as a whole; I simply don't have any data on that. However, even if a student attends a poorly-funded high school, they can still apply themselves and strive to lead a successful life. I see no excuse for why it is unreasonable to hold these people to at least similar standards as everyone else and expect them to have agency and desire a good life for themselves.


EDIT: Quoted the wrong person.

 

[MHR]

White puppy keepin' the black puppy down again. No love for mah dawgs.

 

[pulse2]

I've grown accustomed to white people touching my hair

Is this seriously a thing? I'm firmly convinced that this is just stupid people who would violate anyone's space to feel hair regardless of race. I've had a older mexican woman compliment me and go for the touch but I didn't say anything because I didn't mind. I don't think it's limited to just white people to blacks.

Sadly yes, and its because of idiots like this that everyone is scared to do or say anything that might offend.

I've had friends mention a black person and apologise for being racist, to which I've had to laugh and say it wasn't.

Basically, idiots and real racists ruin the fun for everyone else.

 

[pulse2]

Now here's the important question: What do you attribute that to?

In the case of African Americans, I'd say that it's a lesser emphasis on education within the communities and rampant poverty/lack of responsibility and respect for the law (partially due to said lack of emphasis on education). In the case of illegal immigrants, it's usually also a case of lack of education and respect for the law. So I guess that's usually the main issue.

Do you not think there is any institutionalized discrimination in North America?

I'm sure that it exists within the US (there are stats to imply that such things exist), however I feel that it is massively overblown. Many problems faced by minorities have been explained away with the explanation of institutionalized discrimination, to the point that I frankly find it irresponsible.

The problem therein lies with the fact that you deem lack of education a reasoning for lack of respect for the law, when it has never even needed to be about education.

Black opposition to law stems from a deep seeded hatred for those put in power who for the longest time have abused said power as a means to continue keeping blacks at bay. It was once a means to separate blacks from whites, it was then a means to attempt to convey a mindset that blacks were "constantly" causing trouble when quite a great deal of the time officers would go there INTENTIONALLY looking for trouble, rather than trying to create calm and instil a sense of trust.

Poke someone once and they might ignore you, repeatedly poke them and they will eventually snap. This is the best way to arrest a black male. Stop and search relentlessly and unnecessarily until one day they get upset, then accuse them of aggressive behaviour and resisting arrest. White people who only saw the end result jump up with glee at the arrest of a "THUG" who dared to resist arrest.

Yup, this is a common scenario that all black people know well.

I've grown up with a tremendous respect for the law here in the UK because I've always been treated with respect and courtesy. That doesn't apply to all officers of the law, some have stopped me for looking "suspicious" as they say, or finding a ghost light off/on as a reason to stop me whilst driving, but in contrast to the way that blacks are treated by officers of the law meant to serve and protect in the US, UK cops are considered angels.

No doubt, there are some who simply have a disrespect for the law, but you will find most black people in the US simply don't TRUST the law and when you look at the past, it's not difficult to see why. Texas for example has had a horrible reputation with the way it treats black people for the longest time.

All we are seeing now is the exposing of it via media, but what about the days when the law could do as it pleased without fear of being exposed? If they STILL have the courage to persecute blacks KNOWING they have a camera in hand today, just imagine what they were like a few years ago when you couldn't just press record and capture everything almost instantly.

 

[DaCosta]

I wouldn't be surprised to find out JonTron watches Fox News and Breitbart religiously

Well, he has been interviewed by Breitbart.

 

[EquestrianGeneral]

Snip

Lack of trust in or respect for law enforcement, even if it is a result of mistreatment in the past, does not in any way give someone the right to commit crime. In my view, part of being an American citizen is at least having some form of respect for law enforcement and the protection that they stand for.

I acquiesce that my wording was poor, though. Lack of education likely does not lead to lack of respect for the law; I meant more that lack of personal responsibility and agency might stem from lack of proper education.

 

[pulse2]

Snip

Lack of trust in or respect for law enforcement, even if it is a result of mistreatment in the past, does not in any way give someone the right to commit crime. In my view, part of being an American citizen is at least having some form of respect for law enforcement and the protection that they stand for.

I acquiesce that my wording was poor, though. Lack of education likely does not lead to lack of respect for the law; I meant more that lack of personal responsibility and agency might stem from lack of proper education.

You're assuming that in all cases it was because a crime was committed.
I in no way condone the committing of crimes and to even imply that that was what I was insinuating is ludicrous.
Those who break the law SHOULD be arrested. Should they be killed? It really depends on the circumstances. Did they wave a gun at you? Yes? Take them down. Did they wave a knife at you? Well if UK cops can disarm them without killing them, what's wrong with US cops?

You're missing the point here though, I reiterate, Blacks DO NOT trust US law enforcers. They never have and they may never do so, those who do are either brave or high status enough that they could create a scene law enforcement doesn't want smudging their reputation. Regardless of their status, class and earnings. In most cases a black male would rather deal with something themselves than to call an officer of the law.

That isn't ALWAYS because they committed a crime, a stupid rhetoric that implies that black people only think about committing crime. Yup, that's what we do all day, plot what crime to commit next.

I don't trust US law enforcement and I don't even live in the US. I've been there several times on holiday and have had more negative encounters with them there than I have the police over here my entire life.

Respect goes two ways, you don't respect your parents because they ENFORCED rules on you and then threatened you if you didn't follow them. You respect them because they earned respect by doing things you consider worthy of following in the footsteps of.

If you have never had a reason to respect the law that is SUPPOSED to be protecting and serving you, you won't.

 

[Dizchu]

I said PARTLY to blame. That does not mean that the groups that are affected are completely free of responsibility for creating good lives for themselves.

Nobody suggested they were free of all responsibility, the question is how much responsibility is reasonably theirs.

PART of the problem is funding, again. I'm fine with the government increasing funding for schools in general; however, the situation is not that simple. Partially, school funding is based on performance of the students, and if the students of these schools are performing poorly, then they get less funding. In part, this is a vicious cycle, but there is some concerning truth to it; it's not entirely unreasonable for the government to be unsure about investing in them.

No it's not that simple, it takes more than just dumping some money into a certain initiative to solve these problems. However, it's this "vicious cycle" stuff that's entirely the issue. I think it's unfair for one group that isn't affected by a certain issue to insist that another group that is affected needs to "pull themselves together".

I'm not sure how seriously lead poisoning affects the African American population as a whole; I simply don't have any data on that. However, even if a student attends a poorly-funded high school, they can still apply themselves and strive to lead a successful life. I see no excuse for why it is unreasonable to hold these people to at least similar standards as everyone else and expect them to have agency and desire a good life for themselves.

I'm not sure how badly it affects African-Americans as a whole, but I know that it is a huge problem in Baltimore which has a particularly high rate of crime and poverty. It particularly resulted in the death of Freddie Gray who actually got compensation for lead poisoning and if I recall correctly had much of it taken away by solicitors.

It's unfair to hold them to the same standards the same way holding someone from rural Georgia to the same standards as someone from Seattle would be unfair. Their different backgrounds don't put them on a level playing field. It doesn't matter how "responsible" you are, if you have less money and fewer opportunities you're not going to be able to compete with others. Do you think people want to live in the ghetto?

 

[Cowabungaa]

Another suggestion might be restricting immigration from muslim countries, since we know these kind of problem can (and often do) result? Just a thought.

Not really, because that's immoral as many people from 'Muslim countries', which is a bloody vague thing to say for many countries anyway, genuinely need help. Then there's the fact that these issues are largely caused by people who were already born here or lived here for many years. Y'know, because they were treated like shit. I never said anything about them being poor or not, though an inherently disadvantaged economic position doesn't help, as their social isolation is noticeable in many more areas. These issues are not the result of modern-day immigration, these issues are the result of failed integration policies going back decades. Many European countries actively recruited people from countries such as Morocco and Turkey, then treated them like tools and just expected them to leave. But then they didn't and were subsequently shunned and that's the environment their kids grew up in.

So here's another thought; how 'bout we stop treating these people like shitty second-class citizens? Y'know, fight the legacy of decades of racism and inherent and deep inequality; fight the root of the problem.

 

[shrekfan246]

Y'know, fight the legacy of decades of racism and inherent and deep inequality; fight the root of the problem.

That would require actually admitting and accepting that racism and inequality are actually still issues which need to be addressed.

For some reason, that's apparently just too hard for a lot of people.

 

[Gizen]

N

"Wealthy Blacks commit more crimes than poor whites, thats a fact."

This is true

Cite sources.

"They're [whites] are not being killed, they're being displaced. You are the same guy who says that Europeans displaced the native Americans but apparently, when other people do it to white Americans, it's okay because fuck white people."

This is actively celebrated by people

Cite a moment, with source included, in the US where a white american was actively kicked off his own personal property so that a non-white could literally take the land from him.

"Why is it when the chinese were trying to colonise tibet, why was that a save tibet situation but when it's white people... I'm using an analogy to try to give a parallel situation so you can see the hypocrisy."

He's not wrong about him being a hypocrite

Cite a moment, with source included, when a group of white americans was subject to wide-spread human rights violations up to and including calling down the army to suppress them.

"I don't recall Trump ever saying anything explicitly racist."

Despite fake news attempts to make Islam and illegal immigrants a race most people are aware of the fact that no, a religion and a specific criminal act is not a race.

So you're not denying that the President of the United States has said derogatory things about members of a specific religion...

"We've gotten rid of discrimination in our western countries. If you don't think we've gotten rid of discrimination, you're living in a fantasy land."

While hyperbolic, it's closer to reality then the picture progressives pretend is the case.

discrimination
[dih-skrim-uh-ney-shuh n]

noun
1.
an act or instance of discriminating, or of making a distinction.
2.
treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit:
racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.

You deny racism based on a religion, but not discrimination. Then proclaim discrimination isn't a problem despite tacitly acknowledging that it's occurring.

The whole thing was a mess and it seemed like Jon was woefully unprepared for this "debate".

Yes Destiny got his ass wooped.

If your definition of 'getting his ass whooped' is standing triumphantly atop an opponent lying in a puddle of his own blood and teeth, sure.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Man, this thread is a bit of a shit show.

Anyway.

No, I don't think JonTron is a racist.

 

[EquestrianGeneral]

Nobody suggested they were free of all responsibility, the question is how much responsibility is reasonably theirs.

Most of it; as is fair to judge all people on the basis that they will work hard to create a good life for themselves

It's unfair to hold them to the same standards the same way holding someone from rural Georgia to the same standards as someone from Seattle would be unfair. Their different backgrounds don't put them on a level playing field. It doesn't matter how "responsible" you are, if you have less money and fewer opportunities you're not going to be able to compete with others. Do you think people want to live in the ghetto?

Statements like that imply that all schools in Georgia are terrible (or that people from Georgia are stupid, take you pick) and that everyone from Seattle is privileged and can attend top-quality schools. I have no doubt that someone from Georgia could work hard and apply themselves and do better than someone from Seattle. Two-dimensional thinking such as this leads to stereotypes.

 

[SimpleFool]

Am I morally reprehensible, deserving of censure or punishment on any publicly explicable social more, if I prefer the company of those of my own tribe?

Am I morally reprehensible, deserving of censure or punishment on any publicly explicable social more, if I prefer to avoid the company of those not of my own tribe?

Am I morally reprehensible, deserving of censure or punishment on any publicly explicable social more, if I prefer my descendants to have the privelege of associating with their own tribe?

Am I morally reprehensible, deserving of censure or punishment on any publicly explicable social more, if I prefer that my tribe continue to exist upon the face of the earth?

Am I morally reprehensible, deserving of censure or punishment on any publicly explicable social more, if I prefer that my tribe have sufficient land and resources to continue to exist upon the face of the earth?

 

[EquestrianGeneral]

Snip.

I thought that we were talking about the disproportionate amount of crime committed by minority groups (specifically African Americans). If you are talking about that issue, then your insinuations more closely regard incarceration rates (which are also disproportionate but can be more easily skewed by discrimination, admittedly). Raw statistics on crimes committed, however, can not be attributed to provocation by the police or the lack of trust of the law of those who commit crimes.

 

[SimpleFool]

Have you fully thought through the logical endgame to your implicit principle of "white blood guilt," whereby American whites are held to be guilty of the alleged crimes of their alleged forebearers?

Does this principle of blood guilt apply to other ethnic groups in America, or the world? If not, why not? If so, then are any guiltless? Who would survive, who would be on top, once the punishment for all historical crimes is fully visited upon the children of the guilty?

Have you fully thought through the logical endgame to your explicit principle that "white people should shut up?"

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Am I morally reprehensible, deserving of censure or punishment on any publicly explicable social more, if I prefer the company of those of my own tribe?

Am I morally reprehensible, deserving of censure or punishment on any publicly explicable social more, if I prefer to avoid the company of those not of my own tribe?

Am I morally reprehensible, deserving of censure or punishment on any publicly explicable social more, if I prefer my descendants to have the privelege of associating with their own tribe?

Am I morally reprehensible, deserving of censure or punishment on any publicly explicable social more, if I prefer that my tribe continue to exist upon the face of the earth?

Am I morally reprehensible, deserving of censure or punishment on any publicly explicable social more, if I prefer that my tribe have sufficient land and resources to continue to exist upon the face of the earth?

If by tribe you mean race then yes at least one of those apply

Several those are also vague. For example sufficient land and resources. It's not as if those are allocated by 'tribe'. The implication appears to be not just the people continue to live but that they are able to exist seperately since you call them a tribe. Especially a problem if by tribe you mean race.

 

[Dizchu]

Most of it; as is fair to judge all people on the basis that they will work hard to create a good life for themselves

Yes but the ability for people to "work hard and create a good life for themselves" can vary dramatically. For some people it means having a fulfilling career, for others it means making sure your kids don't get knifed in a gang fight, for some it means getting a degree, for others it means getting rehabilitated from hard drugs.

Statements like that imply that all schools in Georgia are terrible (or that people from Georgia are stupid, take you pick) and that everyone from Seattle is privileged and can attend top-quality schools. I have no doubt that someone from Georgia could work hard and apply themselves and do better than someone from Seattle. Two-dimensional thinking such as this leads to stereotypes.

That's not what I meant though, what I meant is that living costs in Seattle are high. I live in the poorest area of the UK, what do you think my chances are of moving to London? Like, compared to someone who was born and raised in London staying in London? Same thing with Seattle. The point I'm trying to make is that it's very difficult to dramatically change your economic situation because your economic situation is mostly determined by what opportunities you have. You could argue that laziness has something to do with it, but there exist lazy people on welfare and lazy people who are wealthy through inheritance, nepotism or just good luck.

My intention was not to stereotype rural Georgians, the fact is that living in rural Georgia doesn't have the same financial requirements.

 

[RedDeadFred]

This accusation has been going around for a while.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6uTKPwVnNI

This is honestly the first thing I thought of. Frankly, I'm surprised it wasn't brought up until the second page.