So apparently JonTron is a racist

[fractal_butterfly]

It seems to me, that the fascists are on the rise on either side of the spectrum, be it left or right.

Well, the same essay identifies other attributes of fascism which are pretty exclusive to the right, like traditionalism or the exploitation of a fear of difference, so in a technical sense not really.. but I see what you're getting at. "Totalitarianism" or "anti-liberalism" might be a better term.

Even then though. Really?

It seems to me that if there is a crisis or call for action on the left, it is a call for action against fascism (or proto-fascism). You could say that my own post is based on an alarmist proclamation that a harmless internet personality is somehow stirring up actual literal fascism. However, that "crisis" is based partly on a recognition that you can't counter anti-intellectual or anti-rationalist positions using reason.

So, let's take a more neutral example. Radical Islamists who think that terrorism is justified (despite the fact that no traditional source of Islamic religious authority actually agrees) cannot be rationally debated or persuaded out of their position. Any attempt to engage with or debate them will simply give them airtime to declare a crisis and demand that the audience take action, and some people in the audience will agree regardless of what you bring to say they are wrong. That's why we don't debate or accommodate radical Islamists. We don't and shouldn't accept them as just another legitimate political position. It's not just proto-fascism or a fear of different opinions which motivates us to suppress radical Islamism but the immutability of that position to any kind of reasonable argument and the potentially devastating consequences of its spread.

Any anti-intellectual position is essentially the same. If someone literally doesn't care what is false but only what needs to be true to justify what they want to do to people. If someone is simply going to repeat the claim that there is a crisis, that immediate action is needed, that inaction is inherently wrong, that "your people" are under threat and you need to do something. If someone's whole narrative is based on an apocalyptic war between the "goodies" who need to heroically act right now without thinking about it and the "baddies", the betas and cucks who demand evidence and thus are secretly on the side of the invasive enemy, then that is really no different to the above. It may be slightly more subtle in the violent implications of its rhetoric, but it's still immutable to rational debate.

The final solution didn't happen because noone pointed out how obviously wrong all the Nazi ideology which made it necessary was. It happened because it literally didn't matter whether or not people pointed out how obviously wrong all the Nazi ideology which made it necessary was, because that same ideology told them that questions or fact-checking were treasonous when the German race was in an apocalyptic war for survival.

So you are basically agreeing with me?
Burning cars at a "peaceful" protest, because you don't get what you want, seems like a terrorist act to me. Burning a flag with "Free Speech" printed on it seems pretty anti-intellectual to me. In my opinion, the AntiFa ultra-left elements are as bad as right extremists and should be seen as on the same level of "dangerous to society".
Extremism, not matter what the reason for it might be, is never a good thing. Extreme positions only bear extreme counter positions. Without all the ridicule and emotional protests against Trump, he might have never been elected. The alt-right movement could only gain momentum due to their extreme counterparts on the left.
You can, no you have to, fight against other extremists without resorting to extremism yourself. Ban speech and parties, that are actually harmful to society. There are laws for this. Use the power of the state to oppose those elements. But don't act like them. Otherwise things only get worse. You can't fight fascism with fascism. You will only end up with fascism ;-)

 

[Fox12]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

Yep. Gotta preserve the integrity of the white race.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

Yep. Gotta preserve the integrity of the white race.

Because admitting someone is racist is uncomfortable and comfort trumps truth

 

[loa]

I don't see how you can draw any conclusion about someones character based on those 2 hours of jon trying to explain something badly and destiny saying he can't do that because "we're not talking about ___, we're only talking about the U.S". Over and over.

 

[Fox12]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

Yep. Gotta preserve the integrity of the white race.

Because admitting someone is racist is uncomfortable and comfort trumps truth

You'll have to show me where he said something explicitly racist. Forgive me, but you do tend to be a tadbit...hyperbolic at times. What you hear, and what is said aren't always quite the same.

As far as I can tell, the most controversial thing he said was that white americans are in danger of becoming a minority, and they have a right to be concerned. He then claimed that there was a double standard, because the Japanese and French are allowed to take steps to preserve their ethnic culture, and white americans are not.

I think his opinion is woefully misinformed, but it's not racist. I simply think he's bad at articulating his opinion. He even said he's be fine with changing ethnic demographics if the immigrants enter the nation legally, and they integrate into american culture. Personally, I don't care about american culture, since culture is fluid anyway. As long as people value human rights and liberty, I don't care. There has been some debate about the success of muslim integration in europe, but that's an ideology, not a race. The thing is, immigration in Europe is quite different from immigration in the United States. Our immigrants are typically hispanic and catholic, not middle eastern and muslim. They've been very successful at integrating. Jon Tron seems to be mixing and confusing all of these issues into a kind of soup. He doesn't seem to really understand these issues very deeply at all. Predominantly, he seems to be reacting to social justice culture. I think he's terrible at debate, but looking at everything he's said up to now, labeling him a racist seems rather silly.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

Yep. Gotta preserve the integrity of the white race.

Because admitting someone is racist is uncomfortable and comfort trumps truth

You'll have to show me where he said something explicitly racist. Forgive me, but you do tend to be a tadbit...hyperbolic at times. What you hear, and what is said aren't always quite the same.

As far as I can tell, the most controversial thing he said was that white americans are in danger of becoming a minority, and they have a right to be concerned. He then claimed that there was a double standard, because the Japanese and French are allowed to take steps to preserve their ethnic culture, and white americans are not.

I think his opinion is woefully misinformed, but it's not racist. I simply think he's bad at articulating his opinion. He even said he's be fine with changing ethnic demographics if the immigrants enter the nation legally, and they integrate into american culture. Personally, I don't care about american culture, since culture is fluid anyway. As long as people value human rights and liberty, I don't care. There has been some debate about the success of muslim integration in europe, but that's an ideology, not a race. The thing is, immigration in Europe is quite different from immigration in the United States. Our immigrants are typically hispanic and catholic, not middle eastern and muslim. They've been very successful at integrating. Jon Tron seems to be mixing and confusing all of these issues into a kind of soup. He doesn't seem to really understand these issues very deeply at all. Predominantly, he seems to be reacting to social justice culture. I think he's terrible at debate, but looking at everything he's said up to now, labeling him a racist seems rather silly.

Do you happen to believe if someone magically never says anything explicit that they're not racist? I understand it if your view is 'Don't rock the boat, let's play ostrich as much as possible', but really.

Anyways on the more explicit stuff, which ones do you need citation on? The white country one? Do you need me to cite every time in the 2 hour video he said that shit?

Do you need me to dig up the part about race influences culture? I mean, bit of a pain to have to be your memory for you, but if you need that one... This would be the question after his talk about demographic shift being okay. Because the natural question after that is why the focus on race. Which was asked.

I'd say pretending he isn't a racist with his talk of 'starting stock' and so on is just ignoring the obvious.

 

[Fox12]

Do you happen to believe if someone magically never says anything explicit that they're not racist? I understand it if your view is 'Don't rock the boat, let's play ostrich as much as possible', but really.

Racism is a pretty serious accusation. So yes, if you want anyone to take it seriously, you'll actually have to support you claim.

Anyways on the more explicit stuff, which ones do you need citation on? The white country one? Do you need me to cite every time in the 2 hour video he said that shit?

I heard him say something about white nations protecting their culture. By which he obviously meant white majority nations, like many in Europe, in the same way that you would say Japan is an asian nation. He even made that point. Given that america was 70% white not so long ago, I see what he meant. He clearly wasn't trying to say that non-whites have no place in america. And he clarified, as I already mentioned, that he was more concerned about culture then race. He said he was fine with changing ethnic demographics. Again, it was a careless use of words, but it's not explicitly racist.

Do you need me to dig up the part about race influences culture?

It does. Are you implying that different ethnicities and nationalities don't often have unique sub cultures? I thought this was common knowledge. Sometimes those cultures even influence the larger culture. I fail to see how this is even controversial.

I mean, bit of a pain to have to be your memory for you, but if you need that one... This would be the question after his talk about demographic shift being okay. Because the natural question after that is why the focus on race. Which was asked.

He was voicing concern that immigrants from certain nations may not share the values of the nation as a whole. This can sometimes be a legitimate concern, such as in Europe right now. He was right, there are riots and problems in european nations as a result of this. I'm not sure why he was extending this to hispanic immigration from mexico, but I see what he was trying to say. It was stupid and uninformed, but again, I don't think the dudes a racist.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

Yep. Gotta preserve the integrity of the white race.

The fuck is the "white race"? We talking Germanic, Scottish, Anglo-Saxon, Mediterranean, Slavic?

 

[Fox12]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

Yep. Gotta preserve the integrity of the white race.

The fuck is the "white race"? We talking Germanic, Scottish, Anglo-Saxon, Mediterranean, Slavic?

Blonde hair and blue eyes. Preferably a long flowing beard that flutters in the wind. A tail. preferably their full blooded saiyan, but since the planet blew up half saiyans are tolerable.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Do you happen to believe if someone magically never says anything explicit that they're not racist? I understand it if your view is 'Don't rock the boat, let's play ostrich as much as possible', but really.

Racism is a pretty serious accusation. So yes, if you want anyone to take it seriously, you'll actually have to support you claim.

No, it isn't a serious accusation. That's a fairly silly view to take. It does not in fact take all too much for someone to hold a prejudiced view.



For all the rest I think you're ignoring the context but that'll take listening to it again to find the context, and it's a bit late for that right at the moment. Was gonna reply, but it's 2 hours and it's 1:30 AM.

 

[Fox12]

No, it isn't a serious accusation. That's a fairly silly view to take. It does not in fact take all too much for someone to hold a prejudiced view.

Well, perhaps you don't take racism seriously, but I do. And falsely accusing someone of it can ruin their reputation and livelihood. The things you say actually do have consequences.

For all the rest I think you're ignoring the context but that'll take listening to it again to find the context, and it's a bit late for that right at the moment. Was gonna reply, but it's 2 hours and it's 1:30 AM.

Given that I listened to both the debate, and some of the discussions leading to the debate, I think I get the context fine. Again, I don't agree with Jon Trons stupid conclusions, but I have yet to see a damning example of racism. Hanlon's razor.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

No, it isn't a serious accusation. That's a fairly silly view to take. It does not in fact take all too much for someone to hold a prejudiced view.

Well, perhaps you don't take racism seriously, but I do. And falsely accusing someone of it can ruin their reputation and livelihood. The things you say actually do have consequences.

Taking it seriously doesn't mean it's a serious accusation. The severity of potential consequences also doesn't change the bar for what's racist.

For all the rest I think you're ignoring the context but that'll take listening to it again to find the context, and it's a bit late for that right at the moment. Was gonna reply, but it's 2 hours and it's 1:30 AM.

Given that I listened to both the debate, and some of the discussions leading to the debate, I think I get the context fine. Again, I don't agree with Jon Trons stupid conclusions, but I have yet to see a damning example of racism. Hanlon's razor.

I don't think your idea of what he was saying fully conveys or fits the things he said around those parts in question. Which I'm not gonna look up tonight, but will later

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

Well, whatever he is, Jon is really, really bad at arguing. He is completely unable to sustain any one point by providing rationale or evidence but instead leaps around from topic to topic like a conspiracy theorists. I'm halfway through and Destiny still can't pin down what Jon actually means because the guy just hops topics. So bad. His best method of 'arguing' is to laugh dismissively at Destiny's supposed naivete as though his point was self-evident and that any disagreement is simply absurd.

 

[Karadalis]

Everybody who is "white" nowadays is being called a racist...

Especially by "progressive" racists...

So you have actual racists who excesively use identity politics (wich is a nicer word for a mix of racism/marxism) to segregate people into "safe spaces" use the racist card to shut up those who dont agree with them.

First everyone who disagreed was a mysoginist shitlord, then they where gamergaters, then they where alt rights, then they where nazis.. i wonder what people who disagree with the "progressive" groupthink will be called next week?

But hey... pepe is a nazi meme so why not have a racist jontron eh?

 

[Vigormortis]

I wouldn't be surprised to find out JonTron watches Fox News and Breitbart religiously

Well, he has been interviewed by Breitbart.

Sure, but there's a difference between being interviewed by and getting your 'facts' from.

I fear JonTron has done both...

 

[Erttheking]

Everybody who is "white" nowadays is being called a racist...

Especially by "progressive" racists...

So you have actual racists who excesively use identity politics (wich is a nicer word for a mix of racism/marxism) to segregate people into "safe spaces" use the racist card to shut up those who dont agree with them.

First everyone who disagreed was a mysoginist shitlord, then they where gamergaters, then they where alt rights, then they where nazis.. i wonder what people who disagree with the "progressive" groupthink will be called next week?

But hey... pepe is a nazi meme so why not have a racist jontron eh?

Oh yes, I remember all the times I was called racist for being white. All zero of them.

Also, segregate people into safe places? I'm sorry, that reflects a severe lack of understanding on how safe spaces work. Namely that they don't exist outside of college for starters. To be frank, that sentence seemed like you were trying to cram in as many anti-left criticisms as possible regardless of if they flowed together or not. They really don't. This vague group of people you're talking about are racist, Marxists, and segregationists? I'm sorry, do I even need to point out how little sense that makes? Can you give me an example of the racist, Marxist, segregationists?

Oh yes, everyone was those things...except they weren't. At all. Like, not even close.

JonTron is getting called a racist because he said uninformed comments about black people that paints them as being more prone to breaking the law, even though people in this thread have regularly failed to provide sources to back it up. So until that changes, that comment in the eyes of everyone else will be baseless, uninformed, and very, very, fucking racist.

If you don't want to get called a racist, don't say racist things. It's as simple as that.

 

[maninahat]

Everybody who is "white" nowadays is being called a racist...

Especially by "progressive" racists...

So you have actual racists who excesively use identity politics (wich is a nicer word for a mix of racism/marxism) to segregate people into "safe spaces" use the racist card to shut up those who dont agree with them.

First everyone who disagreed was a mysoginist shitlord, then they where gamergaters, then they where alt rights, then they where nazis.. i wonder what people who disagree with the "progressive" groupthink will be called next week?

But hey... pepe is a nazi meme so why not have a racist jontron eh?

Well thank goodness you haven't joined in throwing around labels.

 

[Cowabungaa]

I'm sorry, that reflects a severe lack of understanding on how safe spaces work. Namely that they don't exist outside of college for starters.

Well, they do. And even more; they've been taken seriously for decades. Alcoholics Anonymous? Safe space. Rape survivors support group? Safe space. A school counsellor? Safe space. Etc, etc, etc.

But now some college kids are taking it really far and all of a sudden the entire concept of 'safe space' gets reviled and should be thrown out and such. Christ the over-reaction of some people...

 

[Erttheking]

I'm sorry, that reflects a severe lack of understanding on how safe spaces work. Namely that they don't exist outside of college for starters.

Well, they do. And even more; they've been taken seriously for decades. Alcoholics Anonymous? Safe space. Rape survivors support group? Safe space. A school counsellor? Safe space. Etc, etc, etc.

But now some college kids are taking it really far and all of a sudden the entire concept of 'safe space' gets reviled and should be thrown out and such. Christ the over-reaction of some people...

Yeah...I don't see how any of those are related to segregation or the race card.

Didn't even think of it that way, thank you for pointing it out.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Yeah...I don't see how any of those are related to segregation or the race card.

Didn't even think of it that way, thank you for pointing it out.

Oh it doesn't. Just, yeah, wanted to point that out for a bit. There's too much hate against 'safe space' as is so I like the clear it up a little. You're welcome.

But honestly I wonder why this topic is even still going (I mean I don't really wonder because it's obvious, but y'know). JonTron echoed racial views supported by the KKK (talking about the Steve King - KKK thing here). He pretends oppression of coloured people in the US doesn't exist any more. Like, how is his racism still in question? Sure that can come from ignorance, but that doesn't make it any less racist. Do you get why people keep defending him? I sure don't.