so....Not having children=Selfish?

[Smiley Face]

I only skimmed your post, but it's selfish because you are jeopardizing the economy and stability of your country by refusing to have children. Every couple must produce at least two children on average to sustain your population, but since there are factors such as early death, sterility, homosexuality inhibiting us, couple must produce above 2 children or the population will dwindle over the years. Then of course there's the fact that the ratio of boys to girls is not equal, so even more children need to be produced.

Lowering the national reproductive rates to below the par required for sustaining to population results in age demographic imbalances. China is famous for it's one child policy they introduced to help counter overpopulation. This has been disastrous because it actually worked to an extent and since people stopped producing enough children, the country's average age is very high compared to most countries, it's a big problem when your country mostly contains seniors for obvious reasons.

Canada's population is actually at risk because too many people don't feel it's worth their time to have kids. Personally I think the government needs to offer more incentives to parents. Sure you will have welfare bums who will only benefit further from this, but more good will come of it than bad I think.

Former Premiere of British Columbia, Gordon Campbell made the situation a little worse in 2010 with the introduction of the new tax system. Yeah, let's tax all children's clothing and goods, I'm sure more people will have kids if we do that.

Mmm... no. Your point is wrong on several counts. See, on the one hand, I fail to see how choosing adoption over giving birth constitutes "jeapordizing the economy and stability of your country". If anything, you're giving someone a better life and turning someone who, from your point of view, would be a drag on society, into a benefit. Net gain, from your point of view, even assuming that your point is valid.

Which it isn't, because countries aren't closed systems. If there's one thing that Canada is big on (funny you should mention it), it's immigration. If you look at the demographic history of Canada, it's immigration that does all the damn work - not counting the First Nations peoples, EVERYBODY here is descended from immigrants. The immigration rate EXPLODED in the late 1800s, and it's been fluxing back and forth since, and once we stopped being racist about it, it's kept going. Yeah, people are saying they don't necessarily want to produce kids as much. But where are you getting those statistics? Cities, that are constantly expanding in order to keep up with the rising populations? It's not a CONCERN in cities, it's a concern in areas with lower populations, and they don't die out because "people don't feel like having kids any more", it's because changing economic factors.

Furthermore, this in no way is a patriotic duty, but I see you've already shifted your position towards a stance of a global necessity to maintain a certain population level. This ALSO makes no sense as the global population continues to grow massively, and while the growth rate in Canada may be slowing (Yeah, we do still have a birth rate higher than the death rate), it is MORE than balanced out by the fact that other global regions are growing like wildfire due to the increasing standard of living there.

And you're also operating on the assumption that the current global population level SHOULDN'T shrink, when there is no reason to think that. The points we should be concerned about are when the global population is too low to sustain sufficient genetic diversity (not happening short of uber-plague), or so high that resources become strained. As it is, there are many countries with high rates of malnutrition, and a few notable ENORMOUS countries that are industrializing, and as such will have the power to demand and acquire more resources. In short, maybe having less people, globally, might work out better?

By your logic, all women should be required, by law, to have children. There's clearly no need for this, despite your posturing, but this is such an enormous infringement upon personal liberties, basic human rights, that it boggles the mind.

So yeah, I sort of think your point isn't that good.

OT: I don't think I've ever encountered this attitude. Frankly, though I'll likely want kids in the future, I'll seriously consider adoption, because given the option, I'd rather that my children not be burdened with my genetic frailties. An attitude I do often encounter that I find somewhat confusing is the conviction not to have kids on the grounds that the person in question hates children. I don't really understand that, beyond an unfair projection of childhood troubles and insecurities onto children as a general group. Kids are people too, and it's always seemed rude that people discriminate against them as a group, just because they find some of them annoying.

 

[Vault101]

For the big picture of your own ethnic group, yes it is selfish and even dangerous. Look at all European peoples today. Most have 1 child or sometimes maybe 2. Everyone needs to have atleast 2 to have a stable population. Preferebly 3 and upwards. If you have 1 child you literally half your ethnic groups population as alot of others only have one. It's selfish and technically leads to a slow genocide of your own group.

No Pressure.

snip.

A great suggestion if one wants to add to the effect of the destruction of ones ethnic group, yes.

I dont mean to come across as overly rude..but...

who gives a shit? if white Australians die out in 100 years its not my fucking problem

 

[Vault101]

yes, I know this is kind of the wrong kind of topic for....well a gaming site (full of people probably less inclined to get excited about babies), but hey Im bored and Ive been thinking of this

now Im going to go out on a limb here and say this gets labelled on you more if you are female, obviously because child rearing has always been "our" thing..but anyway

Ya you got that right.

There's groups that whine about it on reddit. I figure if you don't really, you know, give an idea of what brought this about, this discussion just doesn't seem to go anywhere.

well..we seem to be having some interesting discussions

nothing overly interesting, just a hot topic on some opinion blog I ocasionally go to

and its somthing I think about, right now I dont want kids.....Im not naive enough to think that I will NEVER want kids..theres every chance that will change (as it often does with people)

I mean having kids is somthing women are "suposed" to want..kind of, and I wonder if Ill ever change my attitude, I somtimes imagine myself older, without kids and wonder if Im fine with that

soo..uhh yeah, just my random introspection (<-Ive always wanted to use that word )

 

[Gnoekeos]

3.Child rearing is a lifestyle choice, is it selfish of me to not have children because I want to pursue my own goals...rather than have children and be a terrible parent because I dont want to give up everything to raise them?

This is the main reason I don't want kids. Once you have kids, you have to devote HUUUGE amounts of effort to them. And considering I have ADD and aspergers, I might end up passing those genes to any kids I have, making their lives even harder and making it harder to raise them.

I might change my mind someday (assuming I or my partner lands a DAMN good job), but really, I'd prefer not to.

Is it selfish? Maybe. But it's also an attitude that helps prevent overpopulation.

I agree with the sentiment that having ADD is a good reason not to have your own kids. I only have ADD myself but just based on that I have no desire to take the chance of forcing a kid to have to deal with it, I don't understand how anything can be more selfish than that. If you know you've got crappy genes that make you dependent on medication to function properly why pass them on just for the sake of passing them on?

 

[Smiley Face]

I think that having more than one child is very selfish. The planet is already overpopulated and that's just you, who already had a child then gets another one for no real reason. It's not beneficial to anyone, except you and not really that either.

Adopting is kind of good I guess, but I wouldn't do it.

Um, but the country someone is living in may not be overpopulated. Looking at it on a global scale doesn't seem very productive. For instance in Japan they really could use more people having kids. Certain countries are overpopulated, others are not.

Yeah............................. Except that people in rich countries use a lot of the resources and adopting from overpopulated countries would still be better than getting more than one child.

Why would anyone go for damaged goods when they don't have to?

You're not the kind of person I want to discuss with.

I'm sorry, did I at any point give you reason to believe that I give a fuck what you want? Nope.

Why should anyone deal with the hasstle of not only adopting the kid, but then actually raising it?

You realize that you don't just have those feelings for any 1 child, matter of fact, relationsships shatter because the child or a parent do not build up a good relationship to one another.

Or how about that they will typically be another ethnicity entirely? Also a issue bound to cause complications.

Or that the kid could be coming from any given situation.

Seriously, it seriously is like saying ''Why won't anybody go for the damaged goods that are harder to get then the brand new stuff? herp derp''

Because the damaged goods you're talking about are people. Because they're only damaged insofar as they don't have parents. Because you're actively improving someone's life. Because your own genes mean that maybe having children isn't the greatest idea when adoption is viable. Because maybe some people don't want to go through the physical trauma of giving birth when they don't have to. Because blood-ties, ethnicity, and love don't have to have anything to do with one another, and any reasonable couple and their reasonable adopted kid can probably find a way to see that. Hell, my relationship with my parents has nothing to do with the fact that I happen to have the same genes as them, except when my dad projects on me and erroneously interprets personality quirks as OCD.

There's plenty of reasons for adoption.

 

[Soxafloppin]

I only skimmed your post, but it's selfish because you are jeopardizing the economy and stability of your country by refusing to have children. Every couple must produce at least two children on average to sustain your population, but since there are factors such as early death, sterility, homosexuality inhibiting us, couple must produce above 2 children or the population will dwindle over the years. Then of course there's the fact that the ratio of boys to girls is not equal, so even more children need to be produced.

Lowering the national reproductive rates to below the par required for sustaining to population results in age demographic imbalances. China is famous for it's one child policy they introduced to help counter overpopulation. This has been disastrous because it actually worked to an extent and since people stopped producing enough children, the country's average age is very high compared to most countries, it's a big problem when your country mostly contains seniors for obvious reasons.

Canada's population is actually at risk because too many people don't feel it's worth their time to have kids. Personally I think the government needs to offer more incentives to parents. Sure you will have welfare bums who will only benefit further from this, but more good will come of it than bad I think.

Former Premiere of British Columbia, Gordon Campbell made the situation a little worse in 2010 with the introduction of the new tax system. Yeah, let's tax all children's clothing and goods, I'm sure more people will have kids if we do that.

In that case I'm probably doing the right thing over here in Northern Ireland where the average catholic family has about 10 kids.

 

[Zero47]

The world is overpopulated to a point where not having children is quite selfless.

Then again if you worry about being selfish or not around a matter such as having offspring or not you have bigger issues to worry about.

 

[Vault101]

What does this have to do with australian white people? The arguement applies to all peoples and groups.

my point is your talking like some crazy "race obsessed" mad scientist

my "race" is australian "white" (or anglo saxon or whatever the hell it is..who knows?) I dont care if they were to die out in 100 years time, or if the world becomes some mono race or whatever

because my priorities are placed elsewhere, stuff that actually matter to ME, is that selfish? well if not wanting to ruin my life in for some "future greater good" is selfish then yes...Im selfish

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

Well, I feel sorry for whatever ethnic group you belong to. They likely deserve better kin. And genocide need to necessarily be violent either. It has to be intentional however. Wich by decidedly and selfishly not having children is.

Let's say that hypothetically there's an ethnic group which is dwindling in numbers. Let's say that it's at the point where the current generation could very well be the last generation.

With that established, would your view change at all if a member of that ethnicity chose not to have children because he or she is homosexual? In other words... the hypothetical person is capable of having children, but choosing not to because it biologically feels wrong for them to do so. Would you still accuse that individual of committing a form of genocide?

Just curious.

 

[OniaPL]

1. there are other (better) ways to contribute to society rather than reproducing
2. theres nothing wrong with my country population
3. unless ALOT of people become homosexual, thats a non-issue
4. Is me not having any children really going to affect things all that much?
5. who says I have THAT kind of responsibility to my country?

1. I find that breathing is a more effective way at staying alive than eating food, we should probably stop caring about eating food.

2. This doesn't mean Australia will not fall victim to the same problem currently plaguing other countries.

3. As much as 10% of the population is homosexual, most gay people don't find long term partners and adopt or otherwise sponsor the production of children. That's effectively an extra 10% to the infertility rate.

4. We should stop voting, an individual vote means nothing.

5. We the human race are responsible for sustaining ourselves as a while, responsibility is evenly distributed among our population to fill a quota. It's not like we're going to expect one couple to produce about seven billion children within the timeframe of about 70 years. We all have the responsibility to do our share if possible.

Damn, this guy just beat your ass to the ground, lifted you back up and struck you with a lightning bolt. TL;DR: Owned.

OT:

It is selfish if we consider it from the viewpoint of the nation/society, but from an individual's perspective it is not selfish.

Personally, I could not be a parent. I would not have the patience to raise a screaming meatbag.

 

[beniki]

Think of your parents! How else are they supposed to feel smug when you complain about how hard having a kid is!

Seriously though, I don't think it's selfish. I'd like some kids myself, but it's your choice if you don't want to have them. On a purely selfish note, your taxes would still fund their education, so now I think about it... Thanks!

 

[Trippy Turtle]

No its not selfish... Its a personal choice. Like what ice cream you want to have. Nobody has any right to choose for you.

 

[Neko Pounce]

Fuck children. You know?

...

Let me try that again.


Fuck having children.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

Well what im saying is hardly a strict thing. Im just saying one should keep ones people in mind. No one is in any way shape or form forced or should be forced to have children. Just because in some cases I find it selfish to not have them, that doen't mean that I think they should be forced to have children at all. Or to be forced to have children only within their ethnic group.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you only really consider it to be a form of genocide if the decision is made in an apathetic manner?

So if a straight/capable individual doesn't have kids and doesn't work to save his or her ethnicity because he or she simply doesn't care, then that is what you were referring to.

However, if a homosexual/capable individual doesn't have kids because it feels biologically wrong for them to do so, but the individual is genuinely remorseful toward the situation at hand, then he or she isn't what you were referring to.

Or am I completely off?

 

[Li Mu]

To OP, who exactly are you arguing with?

WHO has said that not having children is selfish? Who are these people?
If it's some crazy homeless guy who lives in the alley next to your house then I really can't see why you're thinking so much about it.
It seems to me that you are arguing with yourself.


Should I make a thread called, "So...Child Murder is right?" and argue against an argument nobody has ever made?

 

[Vault101]

.

1. Im trying to avoid getting banned so I'll just say, although there is some truth to that (we cant cry over every person in the world) there is no need to be so fucking insensitive, because I find it sad some children dont get much of a chance in life, you dont have to pretend to care, but.....well your wording isnt giving you much respect

2. if they are babies..then its not damaged goods, and if they are? well so fucking WHAT? some are willing and can deal with that, so that kis doesnt have to end up a screwed up adult, more power to them

3. thats nice....like I said, some people adopt for many reasons, and improving some childs life might jsut be a bonus

4. true...most might people dont adopt if they can have their own...but I think some do

5. sounds like a good reason to me, since I;d have to have the thing..you know on top of the other good reason

6. oh sure...biology has alot to do with it theres no denying that..but does that mean you cant love an adopted child? I doubt it, if you dispute that you shoudl ask some adoptive parents/children

 

[Ledan]

mother of all snips

True. But spending years of your life to raise kids is more than a little solidarity. That is years of your life, work you have to do, interests of your own you have to shelve.

That sounds selfish doesn't it? Putting your own interests before others, isn't that what selfish is? (Just to continue a discussion on the internet, nothing personal.)

I agree Comrade! We must go with ze communist system, we must all share and help each other! To keep anything from others is selfish, we must show solidarity in these hard times by raising another communist country!

Seriously though, now that we can soon have vat-grown people, normal people dont need to have kids.

 

[Phasmal]

No, it's not selfish.

It is selfish of other people who presume to tell you what your `biological imperiative` is, and how you're female so you WILL go ga-ga for babies at some point (balls), or that it is somehow your duty to breed. Don't let people make you second-guess yourself, otherwise you could end up with a baby you dont want in order to feel normal.

Basically do whatever the fuck you like and if someone tells you its selfish, flip them the bird. And even if it was selfish, so what? People do selfish shit all the time, why should you be selfless?

I've already decided I am going to have kids at some point, because I want to, not because its my freaking purpose of being, because its not. You are not your kids.

 

[Eventidal]

It's something I might do some day, but it's an insane commitment and a huge lifestyle choice. I'm not having a kid until I'm damn well ready, and if that time happens to be 40 or later then so be it. Is it selfish of me to want to have time and money to raise a kid properly? Yes, selfish to myself, to him/her, and to everyone/everything the child influences throughout his/her life.
If I'm going to jump into that kind of commitment, I'm going to make sure I'm ready first.

 

[Vault101]

To OP, who exactly are you arguing with?

WHO has said that not having children is selfish? Who are these people?
If it's some crazy homeless guy who lives in the alley next to your house then I really can't see why you're thinking so much about it.
It seems to me that you are arguing with yourself.


Should I make a thread called, "So...Child Murder is right?" and argue against an argument nobody has ever made?

no

it was the craxy homeless cat lady...she often screetches at me when I go to work (and throws cats) its quite unerving

(nah...it was just me thinking randomly...this is an attutude some people kind of have, I know its less common thease days, but it was really the logic behined the statment that baffled me)

To OP, who exactly are you arguing with?

WHO has said that not having children is selfish? Who are these people?
If it's some crazy homeless guy who lives in the alley next to your house then I really can't see why you're thinking so much about it.
It seems to me that you are arguing with yourself.


Should I make a thread called, "So...Child Murder is right?" and argue against an argument nobody has ever made?

Um... You should read the thread before making comments like that. Since some people saying that have shown up. Unless you think Vault101 is secretly pretending to be other people in this thread I don't think she's arguing with herself.

.....how did you know?....