so... Orson Scott Card... boycott why?

DudeistBelieve

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Zachary Amaranth said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
Yeah so.... I read the wiki on him and it basically accounts to that he's religious and doesn't agree with gay marriage. About the worst of it was that he was a board member on some lobbyist group for defending marriage or some shit like that...
And a financial backer. And has threatened to rise up against the government. And probably a few other things. Dude's put a lot of ash, time and effort into harming people.

Now, you can bring up GLAAD, but I really would like to see where they've pushed for legislation. I don't support what they allegedly did, but come on, dude. Talk about your freaking false equivalence.

"They bullied a filmmaker!"

And Card has not only bullied an entire group of people, but attempted to legislate it, too. I mean, that's totally the same thing, though.

It's interesting, though, that you took the same tack as Card, who has claimed boycotting him is every bit as bad as attempting to pass legislation harming a group of people he doesn't like.

I mean, seriously, it's fine if you don't care that he wants to outlaw people for being what they are, but when you bring up GLAAD, you're veering into apologetics.

SaneAmongInsane said:
I mean we are suppose to overthrow the government if it gets out of line but most people are lazy sheep and wouldn't bother even if it was putting people into ovens.
We're also supposed to provide equality for all citizens. I mean, this guy is against the Constitution, which kind of makes the whole "that's what we're supposed to do" thing seem bloody stupid, but hey. I'd also oppose people demanding violent revolution against fundamentalists in magic underwear, for the record, even if the LDS is a caustic organisation.

And you know what else is part of the whole 'Murrican thing? Self determination. If he wants to persecute people like me, I have every right to not want my money going to him. Not that I am doing that. To boycott him, I'd have to be interested in his works. I thought his books were a bit shit and have no interest in the movie. But if he can say "fuck you gays," we can say "fuck you back."

Because 'MURRICA!

But to recap a point I think needs to be made clearer:

Orson Scott Card is one of the shitstains on the head of the group that has made marriage illegal in several states.

Card was a driving force between prop 8 in California, as well as propositions in like two dozen other states to the same end. He, as one of the movers behind NOM, has pushed to outlaw a "lifestyle" of which he personally doesn't like.

Can't wait to see what horrible legislation GLAAD is behind.
Ya know I throw the GLADD thing in there just because I don't happen to like GLADD. I take a potshot at them when I can. They also hate Bret Easton Ellis rather hypocritically. Same way I feel about feminist movement really. Ironic considering I don't disagree with the idea they represent, but well I'm kind of a dick like that.

But like, yeah I get it. Dude's an Anti-Gay lobbyist. Maybe this is the thing that has me holding the bridge of my nose between my thumb and pointerfinger fighting off the impending headache.

So the Anti-Gay lobbyist is bad just because he's anti-gay... not the fact he is in fact a lobbyist in general. You know lobbying, that thing that is essentially bribery by another name ensuring that our politicians vote according to special interests instead of the people? I mean, yeah I'm spliting hairs here. I suppose it is pretty bad to want to line the pockets of a person who will actively politically campaign against one's lifestyle.

However you bring up Prop 8, and no. I'm sorry buddy, Card may of brought that one to the dance but it only passed by Californian vote. That's on California not Card.
 

EternallyBored

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Terramax said:
Basically, it comes down to too many people out there being extremists.

I support same sex marriage, and I'm not religious, but just because the guy 'believes' same sex marriage is wrong, and is a Christian, in my eyes, is not a solid enough reason for anyone to boycott someone's, or to call them 'evil', along with all the other stuff Movie Bob called him.

I mean, if he's actually DONE several terrible things, that's a different story...

EternallyBored said:
The only reason anyone gives a shit about Orson Scott Card is because the Ender's game movie is coming out.
Didn't people also boycott a video game because of his involvement a few years back? Unless that was another sci-fi writter?
Yeah it was a game called Shadow Complex, the story was about a sort of Tom Clancy esque U.S. civil war involving power suits and other sci-fi stuff; the game itself was a sort of old school castlevania style exploration system. The boycott itself was mumbled about, but most people dropped it when they realized Card wasn't involved in the game at all, he was writing a separate book series that took place in the same universe.

Now that I think about it, I never found out if he actually finished any of those books or not, the game (despite being only for Xbox arcade) seems to have completely overshadowed the planned books.

I would recommend it if you like those old-school Castlevania/Metroid style exploration games, it was pretty fun, story was silly, but fit the style of game they were going for. Something about power armor soldiers and a secret faction trying to blow up the U.S. government and launching missiles at it from like Colorado or something. You play a stranded hiker who stumbles on their secret evil underground base, and it just gets sillier from there.

EDIT: Correction, the secret conspiracy group is actually trying to launch a giant airship to attack San Francisco and you blow it up with nuclear missles they were also holding in that facility. Yeah, I know, it sounds like the set up to an episode of G.I. Joe.
 

Kennetic

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I'm not going to see the movie because I loved the book so much that I don't want to see how Hollywood fucked it up. Because they always fuck up good things.

OT: I'm not in the LBGT movement on either side and honestly, OSC really doesn't have that much influence in the grand scheme so the boycott seems pretty pointless to me.
 

Rutskarn

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Chaosritter said:
I find it interesting how people always call for boykotts, persecution and removal from duty when someone has a mere opinion that goes against the leftwing mainstream (pro gay rights, pro-every-non-christian religion, pro gun control ect.) while people who have actually COMMITED crimes don't get nearly as much public hate. Roman Polanski, Woody Allen and Daniel Cohn-Bendit come to mind. Cohn Bendit even bragged about how he enjoyed his "sexual games" with toddlers and still gets one price after another ffs!

It seems like opposing gay marriage is somehow worse than raping children...
There's been a lot more Polanski hate than Scott Card hate in the mainstream media. I think the only reason you see more Scott Card rants on forums like The Escapist is because OSC produces media that falls within our nerd bailiwick. He comes up more often in conversation.

To put it another way: if Polanski was given the reins of a Star Wars movie or something, I'm willing to bet there'd be quite a lot of anti-Polanski threads around these parts.
 

gsilver

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I view art and artists separately. If I boycotted the work of everyone who I thought was a jerk or simply disagreed with (or even sought out their works because of their politics) then that would be a pretty messed up mindset.

So, I played through Fez because it's a great game, no matter who Phil Fish is. I also won't see Ender's Game because I've read that the adaptation kind of sucks.
 

Ihateregistering1

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I do think Card is an ass, but I'm a little concerned about the fact that people are lining up to boycott a movie based on a book he wrote over 30 years ago, but I can't think of anyone demanding a boycott of:

-any movie Sean Penn is in (despite the fact that he hangs out with dictators who have actually murdered people)

-anything by Roman Polanski (even though he raped a teenage girl)

-anything with Alec Baldwin (who went on a homophobic twitter rant against a gay journalist)

-anything by Michael Moore (who openly supports Cuba, despite gay marriage being illegal there, not to mention the thousands of murdered citizens)

-anything by Bill Maher (who bashes Islam to ridiculous degrees)

-anything by Chris Brown (for obvious reasons)
 

Thaluikhain

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Ihateregistering1 said:
I do think Card is an ass, but I'm a little concerned about the fact that people are lining up to boycott a movie based on a book he wrote over 30 years ago, but I can't think of anyone demanding a boycott of:

-anything by Roman Polanski (even though he raped a teenage girl)

-anything by Chris Brown (for obvious reasons)
Er...you can't?

Can't say about the others, but off the top of my head there were lots of people against those two.

Hell, I remember people saying, not just that they wouldn't watch movies Polanski made, but they wouldn't watch movies featuring people that were in movies Polanski made.
 

wulfy42

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I'd be more likely to boycott Tom Cruise movies because the money he makes probably finds it's way into the idiotic Scientology coffers then boycott OSC just because of his views on gay marriage.

His views are silly...the gov shouldn't be involved in marriage AT ALL, other then how it affects taxes...and that can just allow you to have 1 additional adult file taxes jointly with you (if you live in the same residence) allowing you to use your combined income (no marriage/sex etc involved at all).

Everything else should be up to the people themselves and not up to the government at all.

And who cares if he gets money to support lobbying and advertisements etc...gay marriage is already available in many states and accepted federally (for taxes etc) so does it really matter anymore?

As far as the movie, the book was great, the movie was blah...probably better if you hadn't read the book and didn't see all the things that were done wrong/mixed up or just not there. He isn't going to be making another book though that is for sure....as the next two books in enders story are not movie material at all. Beans books are good, but also don't have the universe changing nature of ender's game. This is a one trick/one shot pony...and even for a fan of the book, i don't think it was that great.

I watched it mainly because my wife and her friend where seeing Last Vegas...and between a movie about old guys getting together in vegas....or an adaptation of Ender's game.....it was close but Ender won out (and I may have even made the wrong choice as some of the stuff my wife said happens sounds quite funny).

I have VERY little faith in science fiction books being made into good movies. I'm a big fan of Dune for instance..but after movies, mini series etc...I just came to the conclusion that you can't translate a good sci fi book into a movie...too much stuff needs to be in the movie to make it work..and movies are too short.
 

Thaluikhain

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wulfy42 said:
And who cares if he gets money to support lobbying and advertisements etc...gay marriage is already available in many states and accepted federally (for taxes etc) so does it really matter anymore?
Er...gay marriage, like you say, isn't available in all the US, and it took a massive fight to get things this far. Gay people still suffer a terrible amount of persecution. Homophobia is an issue that very much matters.
 

EternallyBored

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Ihateregistering1 said:
I do think Card is an ass, but I'm a little concerned about the fact that people are lining up to boycott a movie based on a book he wrote over 30 years ago, but I can't think of anyone demanding a boycott of:

-any movie Sean Penn is in (despite the fact that he hangs out with dictators who have actually murdered people)

-anything by Roman Polanski (even though he raped a teenage girl)

-anything with Alec Baldwin (who went on a homophobic twitter rant against a gay journalist)

-anything by Michael Moore (who openly supports Cuba, despite gay marriage being illegal there, not to mention the thousands of murdered citizens)

-anything by Bill Maher (who bashes Islam to ridiculous degrees)

-anything by Chris Brown (for obvious reasons)
Except your wrong on all of those, even a quick google search of their names with the word boycott brings up dozens of matches for every single one of them. Hell, Michael Moore alone gets calls for the government to actually censor him for slander every time he releases a movie. Polanski is on actual literature and lists national feminist organizations use to encourage boycotts, and has been for years. Card isn't even a blip on the radar compared to the kinds of controversies some of those names stir up. The only reason anyone would even think that is if they got all their news from websites like this, where more weight is given to sci-fi and other geeky hobby news

The reason we are hearing about Orson right now is because of the movie being released. People have been boycotting him for years, ever since he made his views on homosexuality known, the only reason we are hearing about it now is because the news agencies are reporting on it due to the movie release.

EDIT: as a final point, Michael Moore doesn't support Cuba, he points out how screwed up it is that it's both easier and less expensive to get medical care there than in the United States. Seriously, The guy is a manipulative shyster, but can we please go without making stuff up about him, it makes the people who actually have legitimate complaints about the guy looks like crazy loons that just hate him for being liberal.

Speaking of:



trty00 said:
Desert Punk said:
trty00 said:
Desert Punk said:
And the people whining that he will get part of the ticket are just uninformed and can be ignored, it has already been said by him and the studio that he isnt getting a percentage, and he has said in interviews and audiobooks that he is a producer on the movie to make sure that they dont screw something up horribly, Ala World War Z. (my analogy not his)
Because the Hollywood studio system is a completely transparent industry that has NEVER been dishonest about profits and who got what, right?

I know this quantifies as a conspiracy theory, but the concept of a massive industry like Hollywood withholding info, if not outright lying, about who's getting paid, isn't that irrational.
And until someone has more than "Well they arent completely transparent!" to offer up as to if he is getting anything more than he said he is, I will maintain that they are uninformed and are safely ignored.

They really have no reason to lie about this either. Enders game made 28 million its opening weekend here in the states, and the number of people whining and protesting about Card are a rather small minority, who they werent likely to get into the theaters anyway.

So yes, it is a rather silly conspiracy theory, the tinfoil hats are best saved for something else.
There's likely no conspiracy. Mr. Card was probably paid an agreed upon sum in order to option his book, and paid an additional based on acting as a producer to oversee and approve changes to the movie. J.K. Rowling got a similar deal for the Harry Potter movies, although she was likely paid exponentially more. Now sometimes, intellectual property owners are paid a portion of the gross or net profit of a movie, this is more unpopular because Hollywood has a reputation for completely screwing over authors this way. Usually by promising them a percentage of the net profit the movie makes, then they report all the profit under expenses and other items, and end up paying the author nothing, because "the movie didn't make a profit". This is how Hollywood can screw out the people like the writer of the Forrest Gump book, and tell them that the movie didn't turn a profit. Studios almost never agree to a percentage of gross profit deal because it means the the author can be paid an incredibly large sum if the movie succeeds, and it comes right out of their bottom line.

If it is the former scenario, then no, buying a ticket to see the movie will not directly give any money to Mr. Card either way. If somehow, he does hold a percentage of Gross profit, then yes, a portion of every ticket sale is being paid directly to the author. Either way, a success with the movie could justify the studio further paying the author in order to option the Sequel's to the series, or different series all together if they think his work is popular enough.

That's part of the reason many of the organized boycotts by LGBT groups are taking place, they don't actually think they are going to cause the movie to bomb and drive Orson Scott Card out of the business. They want to make the studio think twice about paying him for a sequel, as well as spread information on Mr. Card's beliefs and actions. Not every boycott is started with the intention of actually bringing down the target of the boycott. A lot of times, they are merely campaigns to raise awareness about issues they care about, a boycott let's people know that they are dissatisfied with something and why they are dissatisfied, in cases like this, the more beneficial outcome of the boycott, is that it brings to light the kinds of beliefs and attitudes that a specific organization or person holds, and puts a face on the people LGBT groups are struggling against. In the end, the financial effects of the boycott are irrelevant, the media has already reported the information, LGBT groups have exposed the beliefs of the author to a greater number of people, the more they keep their issues in the spotlight, the less chance there is of the notoriously well-meaning, but incredibly lazy, majority of American citizens forgetting about what the activists goals and beliefs are.

It's a fairly common tactic in activism (all forms of it, corporate and private), the majority of people are hard to motivate, and will forget you exist the second you aren't in the spotlight anymore.
 

Amir Kondori

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zelda2fanboy said:
I've personally decided to boycott this movie because the trailers looks stupid, the title sounds lame, Harrison Ford seems bored, movie tickets are expensive, and I'd rather watch something else with my free time. Also, video games... oh he doesn't care for homosexuals? Okay, then that, too. I've actually been boycotting the book for its name and cover for decades. Shadow Complex was pretty fun, though.
Um, you are not really boycotting it then, it just does not appeal to you.

In any case the books are some of the best young adult fiction written in the last century. IMO.

I am pro-gay marriage but I went and saw the movie. I think this is a hot button issue today where we have seen popular opinion rapidly evolving. Thus people want to reinforce this change and so jump onto the bandwagon quicker than they perhaps would on other, less sensitive issues.

If you read Card's comments, which I don't think most of the people boycotting the film have, he doesn't say anything awful. His views that gay people shouldn't get marriage are backwards, sure, but how many of our parents and grandparents think the same thing? Are you going to boycott them as well? I believe in reaching out to people with these beliefs, especially when they are not making personal attacks against homosexuals. Card has never insulted or personally attack homosexual people, just argued that marriage should not be expanded to include gay couples.

In any case this boycott didn't appear to hurt the movie at all, which hit its box office prediction and then some. To be honest I think only a tiny fraction of the movie going public knew anything about it.
 

Thaluikhain

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Amir Kondori said:
Card has never insulted or personally attack homosexual people, just argued that marriage should not be expanded to include gay couples.
And that straight people should launch an armed uprising and overthrow the government if gay marriage isn't banned in the US constitution.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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He doesn't simply hold a view. That wouldn't be offensive enough for a boycott. He has donated, and continues to donate, large amounts of money to anti-gay organisations. So in essence, consuming any product he profits from is funding the anti-gay movement. I am of the opinion that good content should be supported regardless, but I can see why some people would abstain from his works on this basis.
 

EternallyBored

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Amir Kondori said:
zelda2fanboy said:
I've personally decided to boycott this movie because the trailers looks stupid, the title sounds lame, Harrison Ford seems bored, movie tickets are expensive, and I'd rather watch something else with my free time. Also, video games... oh he doesn't care for homosexuals? Okay, then that, too. I've actually been boycotting the book for its name and cover for decades. Shadow Complex was pretty fun, though.
Um, you are not really boycotting it then, it just does not appeal to you.

In any case the books are some of the best young adult fiction written in the last century. IMO.

I am pro-gay marriage but I went and saw the movie. I think this is a hot button issue today where we have seen popular opinion rapidly evolving. Thus people want to reinforce this change and so jump onto the bandwagon quicker than they perhaps would on other, less sensitive issues.

If you read Card's comments, which I don't think most of the people boycotting the film have, he doesn't say anything awful. His views that gay people shouldn't get marriage are backwards, sure, but how many of our parents and grandparents think the same thing? Are you going to boycott them as well? I believe in reaching out to people with these beliefs, especially when they are not making personal attacks against homosexuals. Card has never insulted or personally attack homosexual people, just argued that marriage should not be expanded to include gay couples.

In any case this boycott didn't appear to hurt the movie at all, which hit its box office prediction and then some. To be honest I think only a tiny fraction of the movie going public knew anything about it.
Look, more power to you for liking the movie, dunno if I'd agree with your opinion about the books, I found everything after the first one to be an utter mess, decent, but I wouldn't put them in my top 10 list growing up. But either way, you can like the movie and still be supportive of gay rights, only extremists would say a $10 movie ticket counts as a permanent stain on someones morality.

But seriously, "he doesn't say anything awful"? There's direct quotes by him on page one calling for overriding the constitution if they allow gay marriage. He has served on the board of directors for an organization that supported organizations that put gay kids through "camps" to teach them to be straight. Camps that have had direct correlation to increased suicide rates in people that attend. He has admitted to donating money, and lending his fame to organizations that coordinated amending state constitutions specifically to exclude gay marriage. He makes numerous attacks against the very concept of homosexuality, he says directly, that he thinks one of the main causes of homosexuality is that homosexuals are just victims of abuse and are just afraid to admit they don't really want to be homosexual. That's not only offensive to homosexuals, it's incredibly demeaning to victims of sexual abuse as well.

As for his age, hell no, that excuse flies out the window the second you realize the guy is using his views on a national stage, and is throwing money behind them. "That's how old people do it" is not an excuse, yes, expecting people that grew up in a different age to always adhere to modern views is unfair, that consideration ceases to exist when those views are put in front of the public to be judged, especially when he throws money behind his views to make them a reality. Honestly he would probably be better received if all he did was say terrible things, the fact that he backs his speech up with action is an order of magnitude worse than any speech that comes out of his mouth.
 

Callate

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I don't entirely feel it's right to suggest you have to wait until someone personally beats the crap out of you before feeling irate about his attitude. I think it's all right to be angry by the time they only suggest to large groups of other people that if you were hypothetically to get the crap beaten out of you, that would be a fine thing.

That's a somewhat satirical look at the situation, but given that Card has suggested that sodomy laws should be returned to the books, one might argue that it's within shouting distance. Gay rights are also not the only area where Card begins to look like your crazy uncle who starts shouting at the kids during Thanksgiving dinner. Which would be tolerable if he was only shouting at your family and not periodically at a newspaper and radio audience as well. Some people don't deserve a soapbox, and some points of view don't deserve warm feelings of solidarity.

All that said, I'm not actually in favor of boycotting Ender's Game for reasons I stated in the comments under MB's review and won't repeat here. But I'm not going to pretend not to understand the feelings of those who feel otherwise obligated.
 

Yopaz

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Chaosritter said:
I find it interesting how people always call for boykotts, persecution and removal from duty when someone has a mere opinion that goes against the leftwing mainstream (pro gay rights, pro-every-non-christian religion, pro gun control ect.) while people who have actually COMMITED crimes don't get nearly as much public hate. Roman Polanski, Woody Allen and Daniel Cohn-Bendit come to mind. Cohn Bendit even bragged about how he enjoyed his "sexual games" with toddlers and still gets one price after another ffs!

It seems like opposing gay marriage is somehow worse than raping children...
There's a difference in having an opinion and lobbying for that opinion. There are several game developers and writers with viewpoints I don't like that can be seen to some degree in their work. In fact my favourite author is a little sexist. However he never spends time or money trying to take away their rights. Orson Scott Card does that.

EternallyBored said:
It's kind of ironic that you would make a post like this in a topic that started out by essentially asking, "What's the big deal?". This is the first time I've even seen a topic on him on this website that wasn't talking about the movie rather than him as an author.
There's been a few, but nothing compared to the masses of other threads about Skyrim, Xbox One or Mass Effect.

OT: I'm not going to watch the movie. It's partially because I don't think I'll like it and partially because I don't like him. He doesn't get money from me seeing it, but I won't have wasted money paying for what I most likely can't be satisfied with anyway. The book was good, but I don't think it would translate well to a movie.