so... Orson Scott Card... boycott why?

[wulfy42]

I'd be more likely to boycott Tom Cruise movies because the money he makes probably finds it's way into the idiotic Scientology coffers then boycott OSC just because of his views on gay marriage.

His views are silly...the gov shouldn't be involved in marriage AT ALL, other then how it affects taxes...and that can just allow you to have 1 additional adult file taxes jointly with you (if you live in the same residence) allowing you to use your combined income (no marriage/sex etc involved at all).

Everything else should be up to the people themselves and not up to the government at all.

And who cares if he gets money to support lobbying and advertisements etc...gay marriage is already available in many states and accepted federally (for taxes etc) so does it really matter anymore?

As far as the movie, the book was great, the movie was blah...probably better if you hadn't read the book and didn't see all the things that were done wrong/mixed up or just not there. He isn't going to be making another book though that is for sure....as the next two books in enders story are not movie material at all. Beans books are good, but also don't have the universe changing nature of ender's game. This is a one trick/one shot pony...and even for a fan of the book, i don't think it was that great.

I watched it mainly because my wife and her friend where seeing Last Vegas...and between a movie about old guys getting together in vegas....or an adaptation of Ender's game.....it was close but Ender won out (and I may have even made the wrong choice as some of the stuff my wife said happens sounds quite funny).

I have VERY little faith in science fiction books being made into good movies. I'm a big fan of Dune for instance..but after movies, mini series etc...I just came to the conclusion that you can't translate a good sci fi book into a movie...too much stuff needs to be in the movie to make it work..and movies are too short.

 

[Thaluikhain]

And who cares if he gets money to support lobbying and advertisements etc...gay marriage is already available in many states and accepted federally (for taxes etc) so does it really matter anymore?

Er...gay marriage, like you say, isn't available in all the US, and it took a massive fight to get things this far. Gay people still suffer a terrible amount of persecution. Homophobia is an issue that very much matters.

 

[EternallyBored]

I do think Card is an ass, but I'm a little concerned about the fact that people are lining up to boycott a movie based on a book he wrote over 30 years ago, but I can't think of anyone demanding a boycott of:

-any movie Sean Penn is in (despite the fact that he hangs out with dictators who have actually murdered people)

-anything by Roman Polanski (even though he raped a teenage girl)

-anything with Alec Baldwin (who went on a homophobic twitter rant against a gay journalist)

-anything by Michael Moore (who openly supports Cuba, despite gay marriage being illegal there, not to mention the thousands of murdered citizens)

-anything by Bill Maher (who bashes Islam to ridiculous degrees)

-anything by Chris Brown (for obvious reasons)

Except your wrong on all of those, even a quick google search of their names with the word boycott brings up dozens of matches for every single one of them. Hell, Michael Moore alone gets calls for the government to actually censor him for slander every time he releases a movie. Polanski is on actual literature and lists national feminist organizations use to encourage boycotts, and has been for years. Card isn't even a blip on the radar compared to the kinds of controversies some of those names stir up. The only reason anyone would even think that is if they got all their news from websites like this, where more weight is given to sci-fi and other geeky hobby news

The reason we are hearing about Orson right now is because of the movie being released. People have been boycotting him for years, ever since he made his views on homosexuality known, the only reason we are hearing about it now is because the news agencies are reporting on it due to the movie release.

EDIT: as a final point, Michael Moore doesn't support Cuba, he points out how screwed up it is that it's both easier and less expensive to get medical care there than in the United States. Seriously, The guy is a manipulative shyster, but can we please go without making stuff up about him, it makes the people who actually have legitimate complaints about the guy looks like crazy loons that just hate him for being liberal.

Speaking of:

Snip

And the people whining that he will get part of the ticket are just uninformed and can be ignored, it has already been said by him and the studio that he isnt getting a percentage, and he has said in interviews and audiobooks that he is a producer on the movie to make sure that they dont screw something up horribly, Ala World War Z. (my analogy not his)

Because the Hollywood studio system is a completely transparent industry that has NEVER been dishonest about profits and who got what, right?

I know this quantifies as a conspiracy theory, but the concept of a massive industry like Hollywood withholding info, if not outright lying, about who's getting paid, isn't that irrational.

And until someone has more than "Well they arent completely transparent!" to offer up as to if he is getting anything more than he said he is, I will maintain that they are uninformed and are safely ignored.

They really have no reason to lie about this either. Enders game made 28 million its opening weekend here in the states, and the number of people whining and protesting about Card are a rather small minority, who they werent likely to get into the theaters anyway.

So yes, it is a rather silly conspiracy theory, the tinfoil hats are best saved for something else.

There's likely no conspiracy. Mr. Card was probably paid an agreed upon sum in order to option his book, and paid an additional based on acting as a producer to oversee and approve changes to the movie. J.K. Rowling got a similar deal for the Harry Potter movies, although she was likely paid exponentially more. Now sometimes, intellectual property owners are paid a portion of the gross or net profit of a movie, this is more unpopular because Hollywood has a reputation for completely screwing over authors this way. Usually by promising them a percentage of the net profit the movie makes, then they report all the profit under expenses and other items, and end up paying the author nothing, because "the movie didn't make a profit". This is how Hollywood can screw out the people like the writer of the Forrest Gump book, and tell them that the movie didn't turn a profit. Studios almost never agree to a percentage of gross profit deal because it means the the author can be paid an incredibly large sum if the movie succeeds, and it comes right out of their bottom line.

If it is the former scenario, then no, buying a ticket to see the movie will not directly give any money to Mr. Card either way. If somehow, he does hold a percentage of Gross profit, then yes, a portion of every ticket sale is being paid directly to the author. Either way, a success with the movie could justify the studio further paying the author in order to option the Sequel's to the series, or different series all together if they think his work is popular enough.

That's part of the reason many of the organized boycotts by LGBT groups are taking place, they don't actually think they are going to cause the movie to bomb and drive Orson Scott Card out of the business. They want to make the studio think twice about paying him for a sequel, as well as spread information on Mr. Card's beliefs and actions. Not every boycott is started with the intention of actually bringing down the target of the boycott. A lot of times, they are merely campaigns to raise awareness about issues they care about, a boycott let's people know that they are dissatisfied with something and why they are dissatisfied, in cases like this, the more beneficial outcome of the boycott, is that it brings to light the kinds of beliefs and attitudes that a specific organization or person holds, and puts a face on the people LGBT groups are struggling against. In the end, the financial effects of the boycott are irrelevant, the media has already reported the information, LGBT groups have exposed the beliefs of the author to a greater number of people, the more they keep their issues in the spotlight, the less chance there is of the notoriously well-meaning, but incredibly lazy, majority of American citizens forgetting about what the activists goals and beliefs are.

It's a fairly common tactic in activism (all forms of it, corporate and private), the majority of people are hard to motivate, and will forget you exist the second you aren't in the spotlight anymore.

 

[Amir Kondori]

I've personally decided to boycott this movie because the trailers looks stupid, the title sounds lame, Harrison Ford seems bored, movie tickets are expensive, and I'd rather watch something else with my free time. Also, video games... oh he doesn't care for homosexuals? Okay, then that, too. I've actually been boycotting the book for its name and cover for decades. Shadow Complex was pretty fun, though.

Um, you are not really boycotting it then, it just does not appeal to you.

In any case the books are some of the best young adult fiction written in the last century. IMO.

I am pro-gay marriage but I went and saw the movie. I think this is a hot button issue today where we have seen popular opinion rapidly evolving. Thus people want to reinforce this change and so jump onto the bandwagon quicker than they perhaps would on other, less sensitive issues.

If you read Card's comments, which I don't think most of the people boycotting the film have, he doesn't say anything awful. His views that gay people shouldn't get marriage are backwards, sure, but how many of our parents and grandparents think the same thing? Are you going to boycott them as well? I believe in reaching out to people with these beliefs, especially when they are not making personal attacks against homosexuals. Card has never insulted or personally attack homosexual people, just argued that marriage should not be expanded to include gay couples.

In any case this boycott didn't appear to hurt the movie at all, which hit its box office prediction and then some. To be honest I think only a tiny fraction of the movie going public knew anything about it.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Card has never insulted or personally attack homosexual people, just argued that marriage should not be expanded to include gay couples.

And that straight people should launch an armed uprising and overthrow the government if gay marriage isn't banned in the US constitution.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

He doesn't simply hold a view. That wouldn't be offensive enough for a boycott. He has donated, and continues to donate, large amounts of money to anti-gay organisations. So in essence, consuming any product he profits from is funding the anti-gay movement. I am of the opinion that good content should be supported regardless, but I can see why some people would abstain from his works on this basis.

 

[EternallyBored]

I've personally decided to boycott this movie because the trailers looks stupid, the title sounds lame, Harrison Ford seems bored, movie tickets are expensive, and I'd rather watch something else with my free time. Also, video games... oh he doesn't care for homosexuals? Okay, then that, too. I've actually been boycotting the book for its name and cover for decades. Shadow Complex was pretty fun, though.

Um, you are not really boycotting it then, it just does not appeal to you.

In any case the books are some of the best young adult fiction written in the last century. IMO.

I am pro-gay marriage but I went and saw the movie. I think this is a hot button issue today where we have seen popular opinion rapidly evolving. Thus people want to reinforce this change and so jump onto the bandwagon quicker than they perhaps would on other, less sensitive issues.

If you read Card's comments, which I don't think most of the people boycotting the film have, he doesn't say anything awful. His views that gay people shouldn't get marriage are backwards, sure, but how many of our parents and grandparents think the same thing? Are you going to boycott them as well? I believe in reaching out to people with these beliefs, especially when they are not making personal attacks against homosexuals. Card has never insulted or personally attack homosexual people, just argued that marriage should not be expanded to include gay couples.

In any case this boycott didn't appear to hurt the movie at all, which hit its box office prediction and then some. To be honest I think only a tiny fraction of the movie going public knew anything about it.

Look, more power to you for liking the movie, dunno if I'd agree with your opinion about the books, I found everything after the first one to be an utter mess, decent, but I wouldn't put them in my top 10 list growing up. But either way, you can like the movie and still be supportive of gay rights, only extremists would say a $10 movie ticket counts as a permanent stain on someones morality.

But seriously, "he doesn't say anything awful"? There's direct quotes by him on page one calling for overriding the constitution if they allow gay marriage. He has served on the board of directors for an organization that supported organizations that put gay kids through "camps" to teach them to be straight. Camps that have had direct correlation to increased suicide rates in people that attend. He has admitted to donating money, and lending his fame to organizations that coordinated amending state constitutions specifically to exclude gay marriage. He makes numerous attacks against the very concept of homosexuality, he says directly, that he thinks one of the main causes of homosexuality is that homosexuals are just victims of abuse and are just afraid to admit they don't really want to be homosexual. That's not only offensive to homosexuals, it's incredibly demeaning to victims of sexual abuse as well.

As for his age, hell no, that excuse flies out the window the second you realize the guy is using his views on a national stage, and is throwing money behind them. "That's how old people do it" is not an excuse, yes, expecting people that grew up in a different age to always adhere to modern views is unfair, that consideration ceases to exist when those views are put in front of the public to be judged, especially when he throws money behind his views to make them a reality. Honestly he would probably be better received if all he did was say terrible things, the fact that he backs his speech up with action is an order of magnitude worse than any speech that comes out of his mouth.

 

[Callate]

I don't entirely feel it's right to suggest you have to wait until someone personally beats the crap out of you before feeling irate about his attitude. I think it's all right to be angry by the time they only suggest to large groups of other people that if you were hypothetically to get the crap beaten out of you, that would be a fine thing.

That's a somewhat satirical look at the situation, but given that Card has suggested that sodomy laws should be returned to the books, one might argue that it's within shouting distance. Gay rights are also not the only area where Card begins to look like your crazy uncle who starts shouting at the kids during Thanksgiving dinner. Which would be tolerable if he was only shouting at your family and not periodically at a newspaper and radio audience as well. Some people don't deserve a soapbox, and some points of view don't deserve warm feelings of solidarity.

All that said, I'm not actually in favor of boycotting Ender's Game for reasons I stated in the comments under MB's review and won't repeat here. But I'm not going to pretend not to understand the feelings of those who feel otherwise obligated.

 

[Yopaz]

I find it interesting how people always call for boykotts, persecution and removal from duty when someone has a mere opinion that goes against the leftwing mainstream (pro gay rights, pro-every-non-christian religion, pro gun control ect.) while people who have actually COMMITED crimes don't get nearly as much public hate. Roman Polanski, Woody Allen and Daniel Cohn-Bendit come to mind. Cohn Bendit even bragged about how he enjoyed his "sexual games" with toddlers and still gets one price after another ffs!

It seems like opposing gay marriage is somehow worse than raping children...

There's a difference in having an opinion and lobbying for that opinion. There are several game developers and writers with viewpoints I don't like that can be seen to some degree in their work. In fact my favourite author is a little sexist. However he never spends time or money trying to take away their rights. Orson Scott Card does that.

It's kind of ironic that you would make a post like this in a topic that started out by essentially asking, "What's the big deal?". This is the first time I've even seen a topic on him on this website that wasn't talking about the movie rather than him as an author.

There's been a few, but nothing compared to the masses of other threads about Skyrim, Xbox One or Mass Effect.

OT: I'm not going to watch the movie. It's partially because I don't think I'll like it and partially because I don't like him. He doesn't get money from me seeing it, but I won't have wasted money paying for what I most likely can't be satisfied with anyway. The book was good, but I don't think it would translate well to a movie.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

I view art and artists separately. If I boycotted the work of everyone who I thought was a jerk or simply disagreed with (or even sought out their works because of their politics) then that would be a pretty messed up mindset.

So, I played through Fez because it's a great game, no matter who Phil Fish is. I also won't see Ender's Game because I've read that the adaptation kind of sucks.

Isn't Phil Fish having significant difficulties with social interaction kind of on a different level than Orson Scott Card being a repellent human being?

 

[Thaluikhain]

gay rights are on the rise (damn thats sond kind of weird) and there is nothing yo could do to stop it.
from where i see it, Orson Scott Card is blowing all his money to temper something that cant be stopped.

Can't be stopped? Even assuming that is the case, they can certainly be delayed.

For that matter, legal rights are not the be all and end all. Gay people suffer from enough amounts of discrimination, people like OSC really are not helping.

 

[DarkhoIlow]

I don't think I've ever boycotted something because someone involved in the particular movie had a different stance than mine...be it being against gay people or other controversial topics.

I haven't read the book but I've heard good things about the movie so I will go see it. It's a movie that interests me, I really don't give a damn about OSC as a person at all.

 

[wulf3n]

My two cents on the whole OSC boycott issue...

To me it reeks of the weekend activist. The person who will "fight" for an issue when it's convenient, but isn't willing to commit. Like the person who buys a Prius but still leaves all of their electrical appliances on all day.

In this OSC boycott, people can boycott if they want it's their money, they can decide who gets it for what reason (or not).

But what makes everyone think OSC is the "worst" person to be making money off of this film? what about other films? Does anyone here bother to check every credit of a movie to ensure people with potentially dangerous beliefs aren't profiting?

 

[Sean951]

I wouldn't say I boycott things, but I don't buy Apple because I dislike their business practices, I don't eat at Chik-fil-A becauce I think their CEO is a homophobe (and it was very "meh" the one time I had it), and I won't buy Card's books because every other book by him that I have read was filled with political rantings and I find him morally abhorrent.

All that said, I will probably go see the movie if only to show Hollywood that awesome space sci-fi is a genre worth supporting. Besides, not like any of the other Ender/Bean books could be turned in to a movie...

 

[Diddy_Mao]

The man is a bigot, plain and simple and I have moral issues with supporting bigotry.
I don't watch Glen Beck or Bill Maher (despite being an active Infidel myself) or buy their books for much the same reasons.

The only reason that this particular topic is a point of controversy is because Ender's Game is, for a lot of folks, an important piece of fiction in the history of the science fiction genre and some people have trouble divorcing the creation from the creator.

It's compounded by the fact that Card has been very open with his bigotry, making it exceptionally more difficult to ignore the fact that supporting his work will is some way support his completely abhorrent ideologies.

And who cares if he gets money to support lobbying and advertisements etc...gay marriage is already available in many states and accepted federally (for taxes etc) so does it really matter anymore?

14 states within the US have fully recognized and legalized same sex marriages.
While an additional 5 will recognize "civil unions" and allow for "limited rights and state privileges."
And in virtually every case, they have fought an uphill battle due to organizations like the National Organization for Marriage (of which Card was a board member.)

The rest of the country still flat out bans same sex marriages with the more vehement ones going so far as to refuse recognition of marriages performed in other states and denying rights to any non-married union regardless of gender.

But yeah...I guess they should be happy with what they got.

 

[Quadocky]

Given the rise of the internet I think its incredibly hard to separate the artist from the art. People like Orson or even that guy who created Earthworm Jim, as talented or successful as they are does not excuse them from acting like total shitheads. We deserve better.

But of course I cannot help but mention that hatred of homosexuals (I.E MALE homosexuals) stems from outright misogyny in every case I have seen.

I honestly have no problem with creators acting like shitheads (I still love Fez and really want Fez 2, despite Fish being a dick, for instance). What I, and many other people, have problems with is the creators actively going out of their way to oppress people, which Card does. I don't mind purchasing things made by Tennapel, despite his homophobia. I do mind purchasing things made by Card, because he will take some of the money I give to him and use it to try and oppress people, and I can't morally justify that.

That is reasonable.

I just get so tired of people spouting shit when they should very well know better. But Nope instead they use their awfulness as a way to define themselves as literal walking assholes.

 

[wulf3n]

And what's the point with this line of argument? The only logical conclusion would be to suggest people do more, which it hardly looks like you are doing.

Are you willing to go through the stake holders of every product and or service you buy to ensure people like Orson Scott Card don't get money to fuel their agenda?

If not then I find it hard to take the opinion "I'm going to boycott Enders Game because I don't want to support homophobic Agendas" seriously [I'm not saying you said that or have that opinion].

This comes off as an attempt by many to score progressive brownie points, or to stroke their own ego over any real attempt at hindering homophobic organisations.

Like the Prius owner who claims they're doing their part for the environment or the Vegetarian who is appalled animal cruelty but still eats fish.

 

[Olas]

I don't understand it either OP. I think a person who creates a good work of art or entertainment should be rewarded for his work, regardless of his unrelated personal beliefs.

When buying food at the grocery store, do you research to see what food companies are run by homophobic CEOs? Do you decide what electronics to buy based on the political beliefs of their designers? After all, your purchasing decisions will end up contributing money to these people.

I'm going to guess no.

Why is it different with Card? Are we worried that his anti-gay agenda is somehow reflected in his science fiction story about battling aliens? Or is it simply because he's more visible to us than these other people?

Regardless I think we should have more than a 1 dimensional view of him. You can disagree with someone while still appreciating them for things they've contributed.

People do this all the time. Some people don't buy certain electronics if they're made with conflict minerals, or cosmetics if they've been tested on animals. It's about what you're morally comfortable contributing to.

That's a totally different situation. You're talking about products who's creation directly involves causing harm to someone or something. Unless the filming of this movie actually prevented gays from getting married somehow, I don't think you can argue that this is even close to being analogous to those instances.

If you really, truly believe that choosing to go see this movie is going to somehow impact the livelihood of gay people, I guess I can sorta understand why you'd boycott it. But that's just not the case. Orson Card is receiving $0 from this movie, and if you're worried about giving him publicity; this controversy has given him way more publicity than a film credit would.

 

[drummond13]

Nobody is saying the movie in any way promotes his controversial agendas, either directly or metaphorically. People are just angry at Card for actively fighting against gay rights, and so feel that supporting the movie is, in a sense, financially supporting him. Which it is, if only marginally.

If the movie does well enough they will probably pay him more money to turn more of his books into movies. You cannot deny that. We're STILL making Friday the 13th movies.
It's not a marginal support to watch this movie. It's a huge support, even if your reasons for seeing it have nothing to do with supporting him.

That being said, it IS just a movie, and hundreds of people besides Card worked on it. Hardly seems fair to me to punish all those people along with him just because he's the author.

Every single person who worked on the movie is paid up front for their work. Regardless of whether or not the movie does well. Hollywood is a union job. Key grip? Union. Camera 1? Union job. Stunt coordinator? Union job. The fucking actors? UNION JOB. They all work on contracts, the people on screen get paid up front, the people behind the scenes usually get paid every two weeks usually with a possibility for a bonus afterwards. The only people who have to worry about recouping ANY form of losses, are the executives who put up the money for it to be made. That includes the shit suckers who paid Card for the rights.
I shouldn't feel bad for not supporting Card just because it MIGHT hurt the feelings of the people who worked on it. What about MY feelings? Since we're taking into account everyone's. How do you think I feel that Harrison Ford is starring in a movie that only exists because of a raging bigot? He's starring in a movie who's production is supporting the bigoted agenda. Harrison Ford lost all respect in my eyes for being in this. But hey, he's an actor. He does it for the craft. Well too bad.

One person buying one ticket to this movie IS marginal support. Which is the only choice any of us have to make in this instance.

What about your feelings? You're free to express your feelings any way you like, be it in not buying a ticket to the movie, or ranting on a forum like this one. Go nuts. Deprive those likely-not-homophobic film executives for no reason other than they bought the rights to a popular science fiction book that has nothing to do with the cause you're fighting against. We all know that Card, a bestselling author for decades, would be broke without the revenue from this film. Crush him with your boycott!

 

[wulf3n]

Right and who exactly are they scoring brownie points for and why?

Themselves? the internet community at large?

I'm guessing the who is dependant on the individual. The why is simple, people like to look good and noble to others. How many people here are putting in the effort to be good and noble.

The question I have is why Enders Game and not anything else?

Orson Scott Card isn't the only ass hole in Hollywood.

I'm not seeing why you jump to this "They have an ulterior motive!" idea versus people being lazy.

It's not necessarily an issue of an ulterior motive but the idea of claiming the moral high ground.

We're all lazy.