Sony Admits External Forces Brought Down PSN

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JDKJ

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Oct 23, 2010
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Traun said:
Sony could have bought new machines and rolled back the service by now, if it was internal. Whatever is happening isn't, completely, their fault.

kortin said:
It may seem random but I wanna know why there are so many people defending geohotz (anonymous included). I mean, he went against the Licesne Agreement and was sued for it. He got what he deserved.

"2. RESTRICTIONS

You may not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the System Software."
(http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ps3_eula_en.html)

Unless I misunderstand that, he went against the software license agreement.
Because the End-User License Agreement isn't legally binding. There are a lot of people and organizations who purchased the PS3 for the OS running capabilities, not to play games and Sony took the service away, despite being a major selling point.
Just because OtherOS was a major selling point doesn't mean they can't remove OtherOS. Sony informed all those purchasers beforehand in the EULA that there was a possibility of their console being update for security reasons and that those updates could result in loss of feature and/or functionality:

3. SERVICES AND UPDATES

From time to time, SCE may provide updates, upgrades or services to your PS3? system to ensure it is functioning properly in accordance with SCE guidelines or provide you with new offerings. Some services may be provided automatically without notice when you are online, and others may be available to you through SCE's online network or authorized channels. Without limitation, services may include the provision of the latest update or download of new release that may include security patches, new technology or revised settings and features which may prevent access to unauthorized or pirated content, or use of unauthorized hardware or software in connection with the PS3? system. Additionally, you may not be able to view your own content if it includes or displays content that is protected by authentication technology. Some services may change your current settings, cause a loss of data or content, or cause some loss of functionality. http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ps3_eula_en.html
 

ace_of_something

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They keep talking about security.

Am I the only one who is worried 'the external forces' might have users... i don't know... credit card information?
 

JDKJ

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Oct 23, 2010
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Kheapathic said:
JDKJ said:
Traun said:
Sony could have bought new machines and rolled back the service by now, if it was internal. Whatever is happening isn't, completely, their fault.

kortin said:
It may seem random but I wanna know why there are so many people defending geohotz (anonymous included). I mean, he went against the Licesne Agreement and was sued for it. He got what he deserved.

"2. RESTRICTIONS

You may not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the System Software."
(http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ps3_eula_en.html)

Unless I misunderstand that, he went against the software license agreement.
Because the End-User License Agreement isn't legally binding. There are a lot of people and organizations who purchased the PS3 for the OS running capabilities, not to play games and Sony took the service away, despite being a major selling point.
Just because OtherOS was a major selling point doesn't mean they can't remove OtherOS. Sony informed all those purchasers beforehand in the EULA that there was a possibility of their console being update for security reasons and that those updates could result in loss of feature and/or functionality:

3. SERVICES AND UPDATES

From time to time, SCE may provide updates, upgrades or services to your PS3? system to ensure it is functioning properly in accordance with SCE guidelines or provide you with new offerings. Some services may be provided automatically without notice when you are online, and others may be available to you through SCE's online network or authorized channels. Without limitation, services may include the provision of the latest update or download of new release that may include security patches, new technology or revised settings and features which may prevent access to unauthorized or pirated content, or use of unauthorized hardware or software in connection with the PS3? system. Additionally, you may not be able to view your own content if it includes or displays content that is protected by authentication technology. Some services may change your current settings, cause a loss of data or content, or cause some loss of functionality. http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ps3_eula_en.html
You need to stop making sense. Not only did they have that in the EULA, but it was widely known that if you want to keep the OS abilities, you don't need to update. But people would rather whine and say they're lied to or stolen from. A friend and I both used it to mess around with Linux but it was no big loss for me. If you like screwing around with OS systems, get a PC.
I know, I know. It's a bad habit acquired over many years and as much as I try to quit doing it, I find it very difficult to stop. I'm looking into residential rehab programs but those places charge an arm and a leg.
 

Antari

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Nov 4, 2009
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Treblaine said:
Antari said:
blind_dead_mcjones said:
Antari said:
Well atleast Sony hasn't lost its touch with lying.
and where is your evidence to substansiate the claim that they're lying
Oh ya I forgot I'm a court of law here aren't I? ... Get a grip on yourself. What its saying is I don't believe what hes saying.
If you mean that, then SAY THAT.

Stop being illiterate and realise what you actually mean by saying "they are liars" that is an accusation of deliberate deception. You shouldn't be so flippant about such accusations, its slanderous.

The distinction is important as you can reasonably not believe them without them actually lying:
-may be telling the truth though you reasonably doubt till all evidence is available
-they may be mistaken/tricked
-you could detect a misunderstanding.
Hrmmm ... let me think about this a second. Nope! I'm still going to call them liars. And I don't really care who wants clarification or proof. If you want to believe they are the best thing since sliced bread then thats your choice. As far as I'm concerned nothing they say is truthful. Thats my choice.
 

JDKJ

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Oct 23, 2010
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Antari said:
Treblaine said:
Antari said:
blind_dead_mcjones said:
Antari said:
Well atleast Sony hasn't lost its touch with lying.
and where is your evidence to substansiate the claim that they're lying
Oh ya I forgot I'm a court of law here aren't I? ... Get a grip on yourself. What its saying is I don't believe what hes saying.
If you mean that, then SAY THAT.

Stop being illiterate and realise what you actually mean by saying "they are liars" that is an accusation of deliberate deception. You shouldn't be so flippant about such accusations, its slanderous.

The distinction is important as you can reasonably not believe them without them actually lying:
-may be telling the truth though you reasonably doubt till all evidence is available
-they may be mistaken/tricked
-you could detect a misunderstanding.
Hrmmm ... let me think about this a second. Nope! I'm still going to call them liars. And I don't really care who wants clarification or proof. If you want to believe they are the best thing since sliced bread then thats your choice. As far as I'm concerned nothing they say is truthful. Thats my choice.
If a job's worth doing, it's worth doing it well. Stand outside their corporate headquarters and sing "liar, liar, pants on fire" over and over again.
 

Treblaine

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Jul 25, 2008
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Antari said:
Hrmmm ... let me think about this a second. Nope! I'm still going to call them liars. And I don't really care who wants clarification or proof. If you want to believe they are the best thing since sliced bread then thats your choice. As far as I'm concerned nothing they say is truthful. Thats my choice.
Maybe you wouldn't say such foolish and ignorant things if you though about them for more than a second. Or maybe you're just trolling.

"If you want to believe they are the best thing since sliced bread then thats your choice. As far as I'm concerned nothing they say is truthful."

There is a middle ground between "perfect company" and "always ALWAYS lies".

Why have I reduced myself to explaining simpleton logic?
 

Antari

Music Slave
Nov 4, 2009
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Treblaine said:
Antari said:
Hrmmm ... let me think about this a second. Nope! I'm still going to call them liars. And I don't really care who wants clarification or proof. If you want to believe they are the best thing since sliced bread then thats your choice. As far as I'm concerned nothing they say is truthful. Thats my choice.
Maybe you wouldn't say such foolish and ignorant things if you though about them for more than a second. Or maybe you're just trolling.

"If you want to believe they are the best thing since sliced bread then thats your choice. As far as I'm concerned nothing they say is truthful."

There is a middle ground between "perfect company" and "always ALWAYS lies".

Why have I reduced myself to explaining simpleton logic?
I don't know why you joined in either, someone else quoted you into it. And its not trolling or ignorant. I just happen to have dealt with Sony, a few times before. They have whats called a Track Record. Its not a good one. With me or anyone I know. So if you want to believe the people they pay to lie then by all means go for it (Public Relations Official). But I can't be bothered to trust even the lightest comment from any representative they put forward. And yes there is middle ground, when its appropriate. It's not here.
 

Covarr

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May 29, 2009
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JDKJ said:
Traun said:
Sony could have bought new machines and rolled back the service by now, if it was internal. Whatever is happening isn't, completely, their fault.

kortin said:
It may seem random but I wanna know why there are so many people defending geohotz (anonymous included). I mean, he went against the Licesne Agreement and was sued for it. He got what he deserved.

"2. RESTRICTIONS

You may not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the System Software."
(http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ps3_eula_en.html)

Unless I misunderstand that, he went against the software license agreement.
Because the End-User License Agreement isn't legally binding. There are a lot of people and organizations who purchased the PS3 for the OS running capabilities, not to play games and Sony took the service away, despite being a major selling point.
Just because OtherOS was a major selling point doesn't mean they can't remove OtherOS. Sony informed all those purchasers beforehand in the EULA that there was a possibility of their console being update for security reasons and that those updates could result in loss of feature and/or functionality:

3. SERVICES AND UPDATES

From time to time, SCE may provide updates, upgrades or services to your PS3? system to ensure it is functioning properly in accordance with SCE guidelines or provide you with new offerings. Some services may be provided automatically without notice when you are online, and others may be available to you through SCE's online network or authorized channels. Without limitation, services may include the provision of the latest update or download of new release that may include security patches, new technology or revised settings and features which may prevent access to unauthorized or pirated content, or use of unauthorized hardware or software in connection with the PS3? system. Additionally, you may not be able to view your own content if it includes or displays content that is protected by authentication technology. Some services may change your current settings, cause a loss of data or content, or cause some loss of functionality. http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ps3_eula_en.html
The fact is that it was an advertised feature. Someone who PAID for all the features should HAVE all the features, not have to pick and choose. What's more, you completely ignored what Traun said, which is that the EULA isn't legally binding. Furthermore, beyond PSN access, some new games (such as Gran Turismo 5) won't even play except on the latest firmware. A consumer who has not upgraded, so that he may keep Linux support, will not find out until AFTER he has purchased the game, and is unable to play it.

But the fact of the matter is, whether legal or not, "shrink-wrap" and "click-wrap" licenses [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license_agreement#Shrink-wrap_and_click-wrap_licenses] such as the PS3 EULA are extremely unethical, forcing you to agree to terms that are not explicitly presented to you until AFTER purchase, or else have a multi-hundred dollar paperweight that can neither be returned nor resold for full price. EULAs are a dishonest business practice, questionably legal or enforceable depending on the jurisdiction.

Additionally, what Sony has done in removing an advertised and paid-for feature is tantamount to false advertising [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_advertising], which is against federal and state laws throughout the United States, as well as most of the developed world. An EULA that is only visible after purchase does not somehow make this practice acceptable or legal.

P.S. Thanks
 

JDKJ

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Oct 23, 2010
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Covarr said:
JDKJ said:
Traun said:
Sony could have bought new machines and rolled back the service by now, if it was internal. Whatever is happening isn't, completely, their fault.

kortin said:
It may seem random but I wanna know why there are so many people defending geohotz (anonymous included). I mean, he went against the Licesne Agreement and was sued for it. He got what he deserved.

"2. RESTRICTIONS

You may not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the System Software."
(http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ps3_eula_en.html)

Unless I misunderstand that, he went against the software license agreement.
Because the End-User License Agreement isn't legally binding. There are a lot of people and organizations who purchased the PS3 for the OS running capabilities, not to play games and Sony took the service away, despite being a major selling point.
Just because OtherOS was a major selling point doesn't mean they can't remove OtherOS. Sony informed all those purchasers beforehand in the EULA that there was a possibility of their console being update for security reasons and that those updates could result in loss of feature and/or functionality:

3. SERVICES AND UPDATES

From time to time, SCE may provide updates, upgrades or services to your PS3? system to ensure it is functioning properly in accordance with SCE guidelines or provide you with new offerings. Some services may be provided automatically without notice when you are online, and others may be available to you through SCE's online network or authorized channels. Without limitation, services may include the provision of the latest update or download of new release that may include security patches, new technology or revised settings and features which may prevent access to unauthorized or pirated content, or use of unauthorized hardware or software in connection with the PS3? system. Additionally, you may not be able to view your own content if it includes or displays content that is protected by authentication technology. Some services may change your current settings, cause a loss of data or content, or cause some loss of functionality. http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ps3_eula_en.html
The fact is that it was an advertised feature. Someone who PAID for all the features should HAVE all the features, not have to pick and choose. What's more, you completely ignored what Traun said, which is that the EULA isn't legally binding. Furthermore, beyond PSN access, some new games (such as Gran Turismo 5) won't even play except on the latest firmware. A consumer who has not upgraded, so that he may keep Linux support, will not find out until AFTER he has purchased the game, and is unable to play it.

But the fact of the matter is, whether legal or not, "shrink-wrap" and "click-wrap" licenses [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license_agreement#Shrink-wrap_and_click-wrap_licenses] such as the PS3 EULA are extremely unethical, forcing you to agree to terms that are not explicitly presented to you until AFTER purchase, or else have a multi-hundred dollar paperweight that can neither be returned nor resold for full price. EULAs are a dishonest business practice, questionably legal or enforceable depending on the jurisdiction.

Additionally, what Sony has done in removing an advertised and paid-for feature is tantamount to false advertising [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_advertising], which is against federal and state laws throughout the United States, as well as most of the developed world. An EULA that is only visible after purchase does not somehow make this practice acceptable or legal.

P.S. Thanks
How can I meaningfully respond to nothing more than a naked conclusion? If Traun had given the basis for his conclusion that the EULA isn't binding, then I'd have something to which I could respond. As it is, I might as well just respond to his conclusion with a conclusion of my own: "No, it is binding."

I'll concede that there's a half-way decent case to be made for false advertising. I assume that's why there're a dozen class action lawsuits filed against Sony on that basis. But those class action plaintiffs will at best get compensation for the loss of OtherOS. They can't force Sony to re-install it.

The EULA argument is less clearly a winning one. Sony has a choice of forum clause in both the PS3 EULA and the PSN TOS that require disputes arising under both be brought in California. California law is pretty clear that EULAs are valid and enforceable. See Arizona Cartridge Remanufacturers Ass'n v. Lexmark Int'l, Inc., 421 F.3d 981 (9th Cir. 2005) (upholding the validity of a shrink-wrapped license because the box provided clear notice of the terms and the box had been opened); Vernor v. Autodesk, No. 09-35969. DC No. 2:07-cv-01189-RAJ (2010) (concluding that a shrink-wrapped EULA created a license rather than a sale of the underlying software).

And if you purchase a PS3 at Best Buy, you can return it for a refund. You'll get hit with a "restocking" fee and therefore won't get back the full purchase price but that seems fair to me. Best Buy can't resell it for the full purchase price because it's an opened box item. If they have to take a hit, so should the purchaser. But it's not a huge hit. You'll get back close to what you paid.
 

AngelOfBlueRoses

The Cerulean Prince
Nov 5, 2008
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dbmountain said:
How can "Anon" be so sure that nobody in "Anon" did it? NOBODY IN ANON KNOWS WHO IS IN ANON.
Because Anon likes to brag. One look at 4chan will tell you that much. If Anon did do it, they'd take credit because, honestly, they aren't going to care if the world knows that they did it. For Anon to work well, it needs to work in huge numbers. No huge numbers means no raids and no attacks. For there to be huge numbers, there needs to be an announcement.

Sure, you can say that "only one or a few did it, though!" Which, if you do say that, I'll respond by saying that that group is a splinter group. If it -was- Anon, we'd know by now. Plain and simple.
 

Reyalsfeihc

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Jun 12, 2010
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I have to admit as much as I'd love to say Sony is a fantastic company I honestly believe that it was their own fault the servers failed and it wasn't an outside group. If it honestly was they would've just come out and said it in the first place instead of going the "no comment" route then turning around to say "yes, we've identified it was an outside attack" and not being able to immediately bring the servers back up.

Plus, how can you have a timeframe for how long it'll take for a server crash with an unknown cause to be fixed if you don't know what the problem is yet?
 

Leg End

Romans 12:18
Oct 24, 2010
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rokkolpo said:
Casual Shinji said:
This is why I love hackers.

...No wait, this is actually why I fucking hate them.
And I lolled.
OT: Yeah I don't know what to say, I guess I'm impressed.
Wouldn't it take excruciating power to shut down PSN?
Not exactly. If you know where and how to hit, you can pull off a job of this magnitude with a decent amount of power. Though, I doubt this was an outside intrusion.

OT: Anon didn't do it. Blame Internet Gremlins. :L

Or, blame Skynet and Judgement Day. :/

Or the Cake. :p
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

The Killjoy Detective returns!
Jan 23, 2011
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Casual Shinji said:
This is why I love hackers.

...No wait, this is actually why I fucking hate them.
Who exactly are they "helping" by doing this? And people stand up for them because they "fight the Man."
*Facepalm*
 

z3rostr1fe

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Aug 14, 2009
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Well, one way or the other, Sony screwed up. It's either they screwed up protecting their servers or they screwed up something in the server.

EDIT:
Or screwed up something in between the Server and the users.
 

Creator002

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Aug 30, 2010
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Finally. The reason as to why I lost so much hair to pulling while trying to figure out why I can't sign into PSN. Good thing I didn't get any games last week.

EDIT - Also, quite typical. I hardly ever use my PS3 and the only time I do, can't sign in.