Speed Runner Beats Ocarina of Time in Less Than 19 Minutes

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

I wonder if everyone who thinks he cheated, or "didn't beat the game", because he skipped parts of it thinks anyone using the warps in Super Mario Bros. is also a cheater.

Seriously, the amount of DERP I CANNOT BRAIN in this thread is just...wow.

As Previously stated: please read the discussion before talking. All of your questions have been answered already.

 

[Sunrider]

I wonder if everyone who thinks he cheated, or "didn't beat the game", because he skipped parts of it thinks anyone using the warps in Super Mario Bros. is also a cheater.

Seriously, the amount of DERP I CANNOT BRAIN in this thread is just...wow.

As Previously stated: please read the discussion before talking. All of your questions have been answered already.

It wasn't as much a question as a comment on the absurdity of the argument as a whole.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

I wonder if everyone who thinks he cheated, or "didn't beat the game", because he skipped parts of it thinks anyone using the warps in Super Mario Bros. is also a cheater.

Seriously, the amount of DERP I CANNOT BRAIN in this thread is just...wow.

As Previously stated: please read the discussion before talking. All of your questions have been answered already.

It wasn't as much a question as a comment on the absurdity of the argument as a whole.

Ah, I get ya. Well, the Absurdity is mounting quickly because people keep jumping in and asking questions that were answered on the first page. (Not meant as a jab, sorry) And because others keep giving their definitions of Speedrunning without in any way contributing to or understanding the nature of a discussion.


KingsGambit: I would actually be very interested in reading that BG journal, sounds like Fun!

 

[Roxas1359]

snip

The author could put in the news story the link I had, which states the rules for speed running on Speed Demos Archive, which is the site that all speed runners use when doing it competitively. It's also the rules that are followed for Awesome Games Done Quick and Awful Games Done Quick as well. If any of the guides break those rules then they will not be accepted by the site as legitimate speed runs, and to my knowledge if cheating is found out in the future it results in an account termination and ban.
Link to the official rules again

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

snip

The author could put in the news story the link I had, which states the rules for speed running on Speed Demos Archive, which is the site that all speed runners use when doing it competitively. It's also the rules that are followed for Awesome Games Done Quick and Awful Games Done Quick as well. If any of the guides break those rules then they will not be accepted by the site as legitimate speed runs, and to my knowledge if cheating is found out in the future it results in an account termination and ban.
Link to the official rules again

You are absolutely correct, that would have been a major help.I would have liked to know right away that those were the perameters. However I would like to again remind you that the dissatisfaction with the Video is the Claimed "Beating" of the Game by using programming glitches to bypass the game, as opposed to beating it really fast Using game mechanics, even if said mechanics allow you get a Jump Powerup off the Bat Like DrOswald discussed with Metroid Prime. (woosh, run on sentence, that one) Not that Cosmos cheated within the bounds of his own competition; which I believe everybody has acknowledged he did not, and deserves his record within that competitive circuit.

So let me ask you straight up to be clear: Do you consider it beating the game to do what was done in the Video? Do you think the claim of Beating the game in under 20 mins is legitimate or False, and why so?

 

[Signa]

Man, the whining in this thread is incredible!

"He didn't visit my favorite area! It doesn't count as complete!"

Seriously, even if we had to accept that his cheats were not legitimate, someone is always going to call the run out for something. "you didn't get all 4 bottles!" "You didn't get the Ice arrows!" "you didn't collect all the Skulltulas!"

That's why we have categories. Quit getting mad at the all-drug Olympics because only the normal ones impress you.

 

[Roxas1359]

You are absolutely correct, that would have been a major help.I would have liked to know right away that those were the perameters. However I would like to again remind you that the dissatisfaction with the Video is the Claimed "Beating" of the Game by using programming glitches to bypass the game, as opposed to beating it really fast Using game mechanics, even if said mechanics allow you get a Jump Powerup off the Bat Like DrOswald discussed with Metroid Prime. (woosh, run on sentence, that one) Not that Cosmos cheated within the bounds of his own competition; which I believe everybody has acknowledged he did not, and deserves his record within that competitive circuit.

So let me ask you straight up to be clear: Do you consider it beating the game to do what was done in the Video? Do you think the claim of Beating the game in under 20 mins is legitimate or False, and why so?

And you having issues with the person "beating" the game are your opinion, but as the official rules state, glitches are accepted. Do I think he beat it? Quite frankly yes because a he fought the final boss and got to where the credits are, and that's what I consider being a game to be, and this opinion differs based on many people. Thing about this thread though is that some are trying to push their opinions as facts, and on page two whether he "beat" the game or not and arguing about it is honestly just arguing semantics at that point.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

Entirely so. Although in any argument you will have people try to push their opinions as facts. I may have done it myself today. And while the argument can certainly be called semantic, given that the meaning in question is the meaning of "beaten," one can hardly write it off as irrelevant in regards to what "beating a game" means. We discovered many different and interesting opinions on the subject of beating a Game, and mostly everybody was on topic and discussed well. Although many of us still disagree about what that means, we all had a good Talk about it- And that's what the Forums are for. I know I have enjoyed myself so far, and would like to thank yourself, DrOswald, Rj 17 and Revank for the Good discussion. I do believe we have thoroughly hashed out all point and that the discussion is quite near it's endpoint, but I also said that what? two pages ago now? ;P

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I seriously expected the people claiming that it didn't count would die down once people pointed out that there's different categories of speed runs, categories for glitch free, 100%, ect... This is not 100%, the goal of this is to go from the start of the game to the end of the game using any means possible. If you have anything to complain about, complain about the title for not coinciding with your definition of beating the game, this guy isn't claiming to have beaten the game 100%, and honestly how could you even come to this thread expecting to see the game 100% beaten without any glitches in under 20 minutes?

For those saying that it's no real achievement, I cannot agree with you less. Have you tried exploiting any of these glitches? It takes an insane amount of precision and practice to do them consistently. I would love to see anyone complaining about how this guy's achievement means absolutely nothing try to beat the game using his method in even less than an hour. If you could do that, then perhaps I'll listen to your criticism.

 

[RJ 17]

I can say for sure that all objects and functions are performing as expected. What you might be able to make an argument for is that the design is not performing as expected. Maybe they forgot to put a ceiling there. But that is not a glitch or a bug. It is a design flaw.

Lets use another example to make clear what I am saying. In level 2-2 a special circumstance appears. When Yoshi is hit a flying enemy will appear to move baby Mario around, making him harder to retrieve. That enemy can be grabbed and carried to a later portion of the level, spat out, and jumped on to clear a wall and skip a large portion of the level.

In both cases you use the same mechanics to skip mechanics present in the level and the result is the same: the way the level is played is altered. The intended solution is bypassed. The only difference is that one skips an auto scroller trigger and the other skips an "unskippable" spike trap. Neither level is played as intended. But I think you have to agree that, at least in the second case, the parts all worked as intended. The unforeseen consequence of those perfectly working parts may not have been intended, but they are all working.

But that's where we apparently disagree on matters. Granted, I'm not claiming to be a programmer, but I'd imagine that a "bug" or "glitch" is, by definition, a design flaw...isn't it? Something that shouldn't be in the coding or something coded incorrectly? That's how you get things such as getting hit back through what's supposed to be a sealed doorway and end up at the final part of the game as Kid Link.

For the Yoshi's Island scenarios, I'd say that the 1-e case is an example similar to this OOT playthrough, while the 2-2 case would be similar to the Metroid example (which I said I was fine with). The difference being one is using a valid mechanic (a simple side jump to reach a platform or capturing an enemy to spit him out later) while the other is exploiting bad coding (passing through what is supposed to be a sealed door or bypassing a trigger which starts an entire process).

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

snip

you're being obtuse, the title of the escapist article is misleading, no one is arguing that, however the guy in the actual video is not claiming to be the quickest speedrun to beat the whole game barring optional material, it's a very specific category in the speedrunning community, and they have legit specific rulesets if you want to be in a certain category, which he did. Anything he used as an exploit was built into the game, he didn't use a modded controller, a modded game, nor a gameshark, he just used his wits and skills to be the quickest in that challenge. (the point of the challenge.) No one is claiming that this speed run is any more important than a speedrun of the main game (all the main temples/dungeons+master sword+ganon,etc..), because there is a separate category for that. He did BEAT the challenge, as that is what he was going for, using anything built within the game to finish the game, ergo, beat the final boss and cue the ending. Would I ever do this? hell no, it doesn't seem fun to me, but it's foolish of me to to try and argue it isn't legitimate, as a single player game, in a international community, under a certain ruleset, that he didn't beat the challenge fair and square.

I can make up my own rules for Monopoly and play my friends in a game of Kitty Steals Your Money Monopoly, but no one in their right mind would try and claim that my victory was remotely equal to that of a person who wins the game through the standard rule set.

You could perfectly claim that you were the best at that version of the game, sure, no one would be able to quarrel that unless they beat you, the reigning champ at it. Tons of games are made inside/based off of other games, I see no reason why (if your version was fun) your game would be any less legitimate than regular monopoly.

You can claim all you want that what he did is not legitimate, but by the rules in his category, yes, everything he did is legitimate.

I can't tell you how many times my friends and I have altered games to either speed them up or make them more interesting, and your stubbornness to not let people think outside the box in a single player scenario is astounding. I don't know what you expected coming in here with a 19~20 minute timer on the video, anyone with two brain cells rubbing together would estimate that he would go through that alone in cutscenes, let alone any gameplay of of OOT.

 

[RJ 17]

In baseball you're clearly not supposed to intentionally walk a guy, but what are they gonna do about it when you do? In football, you really shouldn't just put half of your defenders 50 yards back, but if there's one play left and the score is 19-14, why wouldn't you? It is a clear example of doing whatever it is you have to to win as best as you can as long as the rules allow it. This whole spirit of the game thing is irrelevant to this level or style of play.

The difference is that in both cases, what the team has decided to do falls completely within the rules of the game. There's no rule that says you can't intentionally walk a batter that's dangerous, just as there's no rule that says you can't drop your entire defense back into 50 yard coverage. So long as the pitcher is throwing the ball towards home plate in baseball and the defense has 11 players on the field in football, they can use whatever strategy they want.

What is going on in this video goes outside of the "rules" of the game. Namely: you can walk through solid walls. The only reason you can is because there's no ref to call foul.

Quite simply: it's exploitation of bad coding (a glitch, an error that should not exist) and not simply exploitation of a mechanic (a well thought strategy such as intentionally walking a batter or dropping into deep coverage to prevent the Hail Mary pass).

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

[I don't know what you expected coming in here with a 19~20 minute timer on the video, anyone with two brain cells rubbing together would estimate that he would go through that alone in cutscenes, let alone any gameplay of of OOT.] - gmaverick019


Yes, and that is why the opinion was that the general claim of beating the game in such a time was false. Then we began to discuss whether certain plays were exploiting programming glitches, which some of Us consider cheating, versus utilizing game mechanics to get to platforms the programmers thought you couldn't reach. (see Rj 17's most recent post)

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

[I don't know what you expected coming in here with a 19~20 minute timer on the video, anyone with two brain cells rubbing together would estimate that he would go through that alone in cutscenes, let alone any gameplay of of OOT.] - gmaverick019


Yes, and that is why the opinion was that the general claim of beating the game in such a time was false. Then we began to discuss whether certain plays were exploiting programming glitches, which some of Us consider cheating, versus utilizing game mechanics to get to platforms the programmers thought you couldn't reach. (see Rj 17's most recent post)

luckily you posted before I reposted, so perhaps just use the quote function in the future, if you want me to see it.

The article title is wrong, however the video is not, he accomplished which he set out to do, in the category that he was playing for.

Don't move the goalposts unless you want to talk about a different category, what he did is legitamate within the category he was going for (which alot of speedrunners go for in fact. Not something I would ever attempt mind you, but the mindset isn't hard to understand)

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

[I don't know what you expected coming in here with a 19~20 minute timer on the video, anyone with two brain cells rubbing together would estimate that he would go through that alone in cutscenes, let alone any gameplay of of OOT.] - gmaverick019


Yes, and that is why the opinion was that the general claim of beating the game in such a time was false. Then we began to discuss whether certain plays were exploiting programming glitches, which some of Us consider cheating, versus utilizing game mechanics to get to platforms the programmers thought you couldn't reach. (see Rj 17's most recent post)

luckily you posted before I reposted, so perhaps just use the quote function in the future, if you want me to see it.

The article title is wrong, however the video is not, he accomplished which he set out to do, in the category that he was playing for.

Don't move the goalposts unless you want to talk about a different category, what he did is legitamate within the category he was going for (which alot of speedrunners go for in fact. Not something I would ever attempt mind you, but the mindset isn't hard to understand)

I am not moving the goalposts. If you care to read back I have specifically said that I do not wish to take away a record in what (through the posts of others here today) I have learned is a legitimate category of an actual competition. The misleading nature of the article title versus what Cosmos was actually doing has also been pointed out and acknowledged. I have learned much about speedrunning culture today and I am happy for that. I certainly agree with you that the Video made by Cosmo himself is not misleading in any way, and that it has been misrepresented on the Escapist. I would like to ask this now:


So lets remove the competition part from the equation, because we aren't trying to Troll Cosmo, and because we all understand fully the difference in his actual Video and this discussion. Saying ONLY that the player beats a game in the manner seen in the video: can you see why some people say he did not beat the game? That is today's discussion. I certainly don't think you should agree with me, you are a free person. I think that I have rather spent a Lot of today keeping the Goalpost firmly centered ON the proper point; that being the nature of a glitch versus a skill, and wether or not Glitching through 90% of the game and bypassing EVRYTHING the game would have you do by a level glitch, rather than some Awesome Skill, can be considered Beating it.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I simply said, in no uncertain or difficult to comprehend terms, that he did not beat the game. And it sounds like you agree. So if you agree with me, then why are you bothering to argue with me?

Under what the dev's intended, no, he did not beat the game, however, under his ruleset (which you obliged to recognize) he did beat the game. That is misleading by the article title, however in his video it is not.

snip snippity, snip snip-a-roo

I must've missed that, I did read nearly all the pages, but apparently not all of it, so I apologize for misunderstanding your original post to me.

can you see why some people say he did not beat the game? That is today's discussion. I certainly don't think you should agree with me, you are a free person. I think that I have rather spent a Lot of today keeping the Goalpost firmly centered ON the proper point; that being the nature of a glitch versus a skill, and wether or not Glitching through 90% of the game and bypassing EVRYTHING the game would have you do by a level glitch, rather than some Awesome Skill, can be considered Beating it.

I do see what they mean, and if a friend told me he beat this game in this manner I would scratch my head and roll my eyes, as many people here have done. I, and many people here, were arguing that under his specific category, he did fulfill the requirements, which is what I was arguing for. Now I would debate that this is "awesome" skill, because it isn't easy to do, but I wouldn't ever do it and I would fully frown upon it in a multiplayer scenario. I don't see that it has to be one extreme or the other, many glitches do take skill to pull off.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

gMaverick,

It IS getting to be a lot to read through, I can understand missing bits. And it seems that you agree with me, in the context of simply "you didn't beat the game sorry" which was all I ever argued. I fully appreciate that what he did is difficult in it's own right, I really do, but again it is actually MORE impressive in the context of him being the best at doing it that way, than it is to say that is how he beat the game. As has been mentioned, misleading article. I can also certainly concede that wining said competition is definitely Awesome Skill.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

gMaverick,

It IS getting to be a lot to read through, I can understand missing bits. And it seems that you agree with me, in the context of simply "you didn't beat the game sorry" which was all I ever argued. I fully appreciate that what he did is difficult in it's own right, I really do, but again it is actually MORE impressive in the context of him being the best at doing it that way, than it is to say that is how he beat the game. As has been mentioned, misleading article.

fair enough, Due to the articles misleading title and due to alot of people here arguing from opposite goalposts based on interpretation, I'll say this caused alot more controversy then it should have. Did spark some nice conversation though, and I think this definitely a good gray topic to discuss when it comes to single player

Spoiler: incoming bro collision

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

My computer wont let me see whatever that incoming Bro collision was. sounds funny, can you try a re-post? or just the link?

Oh! Oh! tell me its a High Five from the new Double Draagon for Max Gleam! / edit

edit edit: Predator, awesomesauce XD

 

[major_chaos]

Personally I find glichless runs boring because all they are is people beating a game in a totally normal way but with haste. I used to be able to beat Metroid Fusion in like 30 minutes, it wasn't terribly interesting. In my opinion any % runs are absurdly more interesting because they show of techniques that I never would never come up with or be able to pull off, and frankly from where I'm standing they take more skill. I bet 99.99% of the people saying this "isn't legit" would never have found any of these glitches, let alone be able to do them, and forget doing it with a tenth of the speed or reliability this run took.