StarCraft 2 Tournament Boots Player for Rape Comment

[bartholen_v1legacy]

To all saying things like "If he'd said it to a dude, no one would say anything" or "real sports stars used to use that kind of language too!" or "It's just trash talk, it's part of the culture" or "Freedom uf spinach!!!!" etc.

1. Context. Context. Context. And professionalism. When you're at the front of trying to make a legitimate, professional sport out of a culture notorious for being male-dominated and un-female-friendly, you just don't go saying things like that on a social media platform that reaches millions of people in the blink of an eye. Especially if you're fighting against a female opponent. You're not random player #4972 on a random server, you're a professional who's well known and whose every action is followed. Act like it.

2. Yeah, real sports stars used that kind of language too. Used. In the past tense. And even then it was against other male athletes. And even then, would you really want to emulate that kind of language?

3. Try explaining to an outsider why it's considered "part of the culture" to trivialise sexual assault to the level of an insult. Why do you think that is?

4. He had his freedom of speech. He spoke out, and faced the consequences for it. Just because you have the right to say whatever stupid shit that comes to your mind doesn't mean no one has the right to call you out on it.

 

[BoogieManFL]

If he said "Gonna go rape some dude" this would not be news worthy and no one would have cared.

Think about that for a minute.

If his opponent was some dude, he wouldn't have felt the need to point-out the gender of his opponent.

Think about that for a minute.

Dude generally denotes male. Fail.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Honestly, even if English was his first language, his tweet is not an announcement of his intention to commit a violent crime, within the context of a competitive video-game setting. Is it disgusting? Yes, yes it is. However, if you have even the slightest knowledge of competitive video-game culture, you'd know that everyone trash-talks and a lot of gamers talk about "raping" their opponents. I've even heard girls use similar phrases, but I don't recall any of these so-called "threats" actually carried out unlike what JimB seems to think.

I see this as an attempt to start culling language like that from the e-sports scene. A move that I approve of. I'm a sports fan and the trash talk I hear from the gaming community is far more vile and mean-spirited than pretty much anything I hear from basketball or football fans.

One of my roommates today used the word 'rape' to describe what was happening to the Cowboys defensive line against the Philadelphia Eagles. He also used it to describe what Johnny Depp did regarding people's ticket money in Pirates of the Caribbean 4. And he's not a vile or mean-spirited sort at all.

In Kas' case, all we're seeing is the modern incarnation of "Watch your tongue, sir! There are ladies present!!"

You're not going to make a community more welcoming by sanitizing their language-- so people might use 'wreck' instead of 'rape'. In context it means the same thing and carries the same tone, nothing will have changed. It just won't be an easy target for willful misinterpretation and blowing out of all proportion.

3. Try explaining to an outsider why it's considered "part of the culture" to trivialise sexual assault to the level of an insult. Why do you think that is?

Have you ever said "I'm fucked"? Or "I'm shitfaced"[footnote]Lordy, we're trivializing POOP on and in someone's FACE just to say someone is a bit tipsy[/footnote]? Or heard someone say such a thing? It's basically that. We use very expressive words to exaggerate. 'Rape' is one such word. It is neither unique to nor originating from the gaming community.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

I wonder what part of him thought this was a bright thing to do. >>

as a side-note: get off twitter, nothing good has ever come from twitter, it's basicly the YT comment section without the videos.

Worse actually. Youtube comments, last i checked, couldn't ruin your life.

If I had to rate the three worst inventions in the 20th/21st centuries, it would be, in order, the H-bomb, self flushing toilets, and Twitter.

 

[RedDeadFred]

For those of you saying "this wouldn't have been a bid deal if his opponent was a man", maybe to you. To other people who want Esports to be taken seriously and not seen as just a bunch of immature assholes faffing about, we'd still want him thrown out.

Also, if it really was the case that nobody would bat an eye at the comment being directed at a man, that still doesn't make it okay. You'd never see something like that fly in any major sports. If Sydney Crosby said that he was going to rape his opponents in his next game, it wouldn't matter that he's the face of the NHL, he'd be suspended and probably given a hefty fine.

If you really think that the guy shouldn't have been punished because it's the norm for our community, I'd say that's a pretty damning statement of just how shitty our community is.

 

[Artaneius]

Towards the whole "if he said it to a guy it would've been cool" aspect. This is something you don't say to a woman(much less tweet about it) unless you know her very and know shes cool with it, thats just common fucking sense. This is like making a holocaust joke infront of a random jewish dude, yeah some might be cool with it but this is just some shit you don't do.

I realy wonder how fucking alienated from normal human interaction this guy must be to think this behavior is cool.

When you try to enter a culture, you adapt to it and this includes competitive gaming. The culture no matter what should not have to adapt to your special wants/needs. If you as a man or woman are expecting to be treated well entering a culture very well known for it's toxic behavior in regards to anyone that is worse than them when it comes to skill... then your barking at the wrong tree. Competitive gamers only respect one thing and that's skill. Either your good and deserve respect or your bad and deserve none. You earn respect, it's not given to you because your a human being. You pay your dues like the rest of us had during the arcades and old tournaments.

This is the biggest issue non-competitive gamers don't realize. We had to go through the same exact shit. Pay your dues like the rest of us. We had to go through fake death threats, harassment's, severe toxic trash talking, rape comments, and even real life events like cars being vandalized etc. That all comes with the territory. They're plenty of competitive girl gamers that successfully adapted and became well respected in fighting game communities and shooters.

They earned it from hard work and years of dedication. Then and ONLY THEN will you earn our respect as a player and as a gamer.

 

[Seanchaidh]

For those of you saying "this wouldn't have been a bid deal if his opponent was a man", maybe to you. To other people who want Esports to be taken seriously and not seen as just a bunch of immature assholes faffing about, we'd still want him thrown out.

Also, if it really was the case that nobody would bat an eye at the comment being directed at a man, that still doesn't make it okay. You'd never see something like that fly in any major sports. If Sydney Crosby said that he was going to rape his opponents in his next game, it wouldn't matter that he's the face of the NHL, he'd be suspended and probably given a hefty fine.

If you really think that the guy shouldn't have been punished because it's the norm for our community, I'd say that's a pretty damning statement of just how shitty our community is.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-11/ford-world-cup-rape-jokes/5590856
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5311494

It's the norm for apparently many communities. In any case, when people use the word 'rape' like this, it is not trivializing the word 'rape'. It is harnessing the power of the word 'rape' to describe relatively trivial things to make them seem less trivial: the dramatic in the everyday. That's not the same. It is unfortunate that some people feel the need to focus and hone in so narrowly on the word rather than appreciate what is being said for what it is. It is not "oh, here's my trivial commentary on some random sports game, let me use the word 'rape' to describe such a trivial thing". That isn't it at all: it is more along the lines of "here is something I consider personally important, and I'm going to use the word 'rape' to describe something particularly dramatic that happened in something I care about." Because rape is not trivial. Rape is, however, dramatic. Scary. Egregious. Appalling. And that is exactly the sense that people want to give what they are talking about when they use the word.

Kas was saying he was going to beat the pants off win his Starcraft match so convincingly that, yes, the word 'rape' might appear in the minds of those so inclined. He was going to dominate his opponent. He was going to murder his opponent (figuratively speaking.) He was going to win so hard it should be thought of as a terrible crime (if it wasn't merely a game.) Rape is a natural analogy to make in a culture in which everything is related (somehow!) to sex (western culture) about a game in which victory is decided by the simulation of mass violence (Starcraft.) It is not at all a commentary on the community that the word is used.

You want to take aim at a toxic tweet that might reveal something about the Starcraft or gaming community? Have a look at this one:

https://twitter.com/nightendd/status/535881157598924800

That is actually mean-spirited. That deserves some scorn.

 

[RedDeadFred]

For those of you saying "this wouldn't have been a bid deal if his opponent was a man", maybe to you. To other people who want Esports to be taken seriously and not seen as just a bunch of immature assholes faffing about, we'd still want him thrown out.

Also, if it really was the case that nobody would bat an eye at the comment being directed at a man, that still doesn't make it okay. You'd never see something like that fly in any major sports. If Sydney Crosby said that he was going to rape his opponents in his next game, it wouldn't matter that he's the face of the NHL, he'd be suspended and probably given a hefty fine.

If you really think that the guy shouldn't have been punished because it's the norm for our community, I'd say that's a pretty damning statement of just how shitty our community is.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-11/ford-world-cup-rape-jokes/5590856
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5311494

It's the norm for apparently many communities. In any case, when people use the word 'rape' like this, it is not trivializing the word 'rape'. It is harnessing the power of the word 'rape' to describe relatively trivial things to make them seem less trivial: the dramatic in the everyday. That's not the same. It is unfortunate that some people feel the need to focus and hone in so narrowly on the word rather than appreciate what is being said for what it is. It is not "oh, here's my trivial commentary on some random sports game, let me use the word 'rape' to describe such a trivial thing". That isn't it at all: it is more along the lines of "here is something I consider personally important, and I'm going to use the word 'rape' to describe something particularly dramatic that happened in something I care about." Because rape is not trivial. Rape is, however, dramatic. Scary. Egregious. Appalling. And that is exactly the sense that people want to give what they are talking about when they use the word.

Kas was saying he was going to beat the pants off win his Starcraft match so convincingly that, yes, the word 'rape' might appear in the minds of those so inclined. He was going to dominate his opponent. He was going to murder his opponent (figuratively speaking.) He was going to win so hard it should be thought of as a terrible crime (if it wasn't merely a game.) Rape is a natural analogy to make in a culture in which everything is related (somehow!) to sex (western culture) about a game in which victory is decided by the simulation of mass violence (Starcraft.) It is not at all a commentary on the community that the word is used.

You want to take aim at a toxic tweet that might reveal something about the Starcraft or gaming community? Have a look at this one:

https://twitter.com/nightendd/status/535881157598924800

That is actually mean-spirited. That deserves some scorn.

Ya, I understand what it means. This was from a professional player though. My point was that he's making the sport look bad. You wouldn't catch professionals from other sports doing that (I read those Tweets you linked and I confess, I know the names of maybe 3 NFL players so if any of those were pros, you'll have proven me wrong to an extent -they may have been punished).

Professionalism aside, it was still an incredibly dickish thing to do. He pauses the game just to Tweet something like that? Ugh.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but if people ever want Esports to be taken seriously by the general public, stuff like this is going to have to stop.

 

[one squirrel]

Yes, let's create a culture where one stupid joke can ruin your career and you have to choose your words most carefully at all times because otherwise some milksope could feel offended. That will surely be a healthy environment and fun for everybody involved.

 

[JimB]

One of my roommates today used the word 'rape' to describe what was happening to the Cowboys defensive line against the Philadelphia Eagles. He also used it to describe what Johnny Depp did regarding people's ticket money in Pirates of the Caribbean 4. And he's not a vile or mean-spirited sort at all.

I don't think anyone is judging a person's moral fiber here or anything, just what his words convey. I mean, I once knew a guy who was otherwise pretty nice but wouldn't shut up about how much he hates niggers, but the quality of his character is irrelevant to whether the word he uses is offensive and hurtful. And like the guy I used to know, how this competitive gamer intended the word doesn't really matter very much compared to the effect it had. A person doesn't really get to say things like, "I'm gonna rape this chick," and then protest that people misunderstood him (not that I'm aware of him having done so; so far as I know, it's only his supporters doing that).

When you try to enter a culture, you adapt to it and this includes competitive gaming. The culture no matter what should not have to adapt to your special wants/needs.

I've asked before why people should be expected to let offensive behavior slide on grandfather clauses, but I don't think I'm ever going to get an answer to that which makes any sense to me, so let me approach it from another angle: Who exactly is enforcing the change to this vague culture you're referencing? Is it the outsider, or is it the insiders in authority over the eSports competition?

If you as a man or woman are expecting to be treated well entering a culture very well known for its toxic behavior in regards to anyone that is worse than them when it comes to skill...then you're barking at the wrong tree.

So your argument here is that gamers deserve to behave badly on the grounds that they've behaved badly in the past?

We had to go through fake death threats, harassment, severe toxic trash talking, rape comments, and even real life events like cars being vandalized, etc. That all comes with the territory.

Then the territory is poisonous and needs to be burned to the ground, then have the earth salted. Jesus Christ, dude, at this point you are defending unarguably criminal activities as something that deserves to go on and that people should just shut up about.

Then and only then will you earn our respect as a player and as a gamer.

Because being respected as a human being is too much to ask, I suppose.

Yes, let's create a culture where one stupid joke can ruin your career and you have to choose your words most carefully at all times because otherwise some milksop could feel offended.

"One stupid joke" has always been able to ruin a person's career. If I started telling jokes about how much I want to punch my patients in the face, yeah, it damn well could ruin my career, and I'd deserve it. The culture you are so afraid of has existed for as long as human beings have been banding together.

 

[Azure23]

I expected to come into this thread and see legions of people whining about how gamers have redefined the word to mean a crushing defeat, and escapists, you didn't disappoint. Which is to say, I am sorely disappointed in most of you.

The fact that gamers feel like redefining rape and throwing it about nonchalantly is acceptable says ugly things about our community. Just because the word means something else to you does not change it's definiton or how other people will interpret your words, it's incredibly self centered to think otherwise. Rape is a violation of the highest degree, it is not a loss in a goddamn game, I should fucking know. To use such a loaded term to describe defeat IN A FUCKING GAME is staggeringly insensitive and trivializes the act and the survivors both. It is not all about you, change your fucking language, it costs you nothing except the use of a word in a venue where it has no business being used anyway. I'll say it plainly. I'm a survivor, people I love and care about are survivors. What we went through was not some trivial defeat, it was one of the most degrading and painful experiences a human can have. It was over thirteen years ago and the scars are still fucking there. However much you would like to redefine the word, that's what it means to people who have been through it, that's what it means to people who feel like they are threatened by it in their day to day lives.

"Remember when we could say whatever we wanted and people jus took it as trash talk?" Yeah I do remember, and it was terrible then too, people looked down on gamers because they saw a bunch of anti-social shut ins who screamed the worst obscenities they could think of. You wanna go back to those times? When everybody would just leave you alone and look down on you in quiet disgust? Instead of making things better? I don't know if you noticed but gamers have kind of an image problem nowadays, it was getting better for awhile but then we all proved them right, yet again. I'm so glad this dumbshit was disqualified for his idiotic use of the word, he deserved it. He's supposed to be a professional and represent his gaming community. The disqualification serves as a statement that he doesn't (although honestly his conduct represents his community better than I'd like). There's nothing wrong with trash talk, it has a place in most competitive environments, but not in a professional one and not that word.

TL;DR
If you use the word rape casually you are disgusting to me, and doubtless to the innumerable others who have had personal experiences with sexual assault. You have no fucking right. Conduct yourself better. If you are a professional act that way, if you like your casual trash talk then find a better word that actually means what you are trying to convey.

Goddamn I got angry writing that, I should go listen to some music or something. I almost hate being a gamer lately, almost.

Edit: I don't know why I feel the need to bring this up but personally I find rape jokes in general to be fine. If they're constructed well and aimed at the abuser than they can be as funny as anything else. That's not what this guy said, he didn't make a joke, he made a statement.

 

[kuolonen]

Example of people getting in trouble for saying stupid shit in the internet, case number 353252379710923751.

Though it does make me wonder, what would have been ok. Would: "gonna kill this jew/gonna gas this jew/etc." be ok if the opponent is jewish player? Would it be worse if the commenter was from middle-east? If that was not ok, would there be some version of specifically targeting opponents gender/racial/national/etc background without getting to trouble. Not just the glaring usual suspects but also the ones against majority. I feel somebody will always get pissed, but would all those cases lead to a ban from competition?

 

[wAriot]

Well, that was stupid. Not because he made a tasteless joke, but because he's a professional, referring to another one. And "raping" is not something a professional should say.

snip

See, with this I can't agree. "Rape" has a connotation of overpowering someone (for obvious reasons), so when you use it not literally, that's what it means, "I'm more powerful than you", "I'm going to destroy you". It's not trivializing the act, it's just using a different meaning of the word.

Similar words are abuse (as in, "stop abusing that feature"), kill ("that was a killer joke"), violate ("he violated a law"), and many others. Context is important.

 

[JimB]

I missed this post earlier.

I don't recall any of these so-called "threats" actually carried out unlike what JimB seems to think.

I neither said nor implied that. Since I do not know if your misrepresentation of me is unknowing or deliberate, I will ask that you either go to the trouble of reading every word I wrote or that you stop misrepresenting me for the sake of making rhetorical points defending poor, mistreated gamers' right to announce on Twitter that they're going to rape someone.

 

[Ishigami]

Woman notices male player violating the conditions of participation in a tournament as well as announcing an intention to commit a violent crime, when his statement is interpreted literally.

That is just beyond stupid. I can't take you serious.

What a crybaby

Indeed.

 

[JimB]

That is just beyond stupid.

It is what happened, when stripped of the rather creepy narrative attempting to paint the guy who said on global social media, "Hang on, I have to rape this chick real quick" (or whatever his specific phrasing actually was) as the victim of a sore loser rather than as someone who got called out for saying on global social media, "Hang on, I have to rape this chick real quick" (or, again, whatever his specific phrasing actually was).

I can't take you seriously.

While I would normally live or die by the approval of people I've never met whose personal view I disagree with, I shall nevertheless reach deep inside myself for the strength to overcome this grievous blow to my self-esteem.

 

[DaViller]

You pay your dues like the rest of us had during the arcades and old tournaments.

This is the biggest issue non-competitive gamers don't realize. We had to go through the same exact shit. Pay your dues like the rest of us. We had to go through fake death threats, harassment's, severe toxic trash talking, rape comments, and even real life events like cars being vandalized etc. That all comes with the territory. They're plenty of competitive girl gamers that successfully adapted and became well respected in fighting game communities and shooters.

They earned it from hard work and years of dedication. Then and ONLY THEN will you earn our respect as a player and as a gamer.

First of all spare me the "your an outsider and don't get our culture" stuff, I have played in wc3 and counterstrike clans in the past and I know the community has it's fair share of assholes but I was under the impression that thats a bad thing.
Now please ask yourself, at wich point did you develop some kind of stockholm syndrome towards all the fucked up things you just described? Your argument goes something like this "I know our culture is completly fucked up in certain ways, but we shouldn't condemn that because I have gone through that shit wich means erveryone else should". At this point you sound like that aris dude from cross assault, trying to legitimize reprehensible behavior in the name of some vague "culture" as if your part of some ancient tribe thats suddenly under attack. What you call culture is part of a bigger culture and a society and if aspects of it suck then it should change accordingly. Just because some clique has decided for themselves that x or y shitty is cool doesn't give them right to not be called out for that shit by everyone else.

Lastly I'm fairly certain that a lot of respected and influential people in the competetive community would disagree with this general sentiment of "we are allowed to be assholes because culture and stuff". I'm pretty sure that If I asked, lets say, Seth Killian on wether or not this behavior was cool, he would be on the not cool side.

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

Towards the whole "if he said it to a guy it would've been cool" aspect. This is something you don't say to a woman(much less tweet about it) unless you know her very and know shes cool with it, thats just common fucking sense. This is like making a holocaust joke infront of a random jewish dude, yeah some might be cool with it but this is just some shit you don't do.

I realy wonder how fucking alienated from normal human interaction this guy must be to think this behavior is cool.

When you try to enter a culture, you adapt to it and this includes competitive gaming. The culture no matter what should not have to adapt to your special wants/needs. If you as a man or woman are expecting to be treated well entering a culture very well known for it's toxic behavior in regards to anyone that is worse than them when it comes to skill... then your barking at the wrong tree. Competitive gamers only respect one thing and that's skill. Either your good and deserve respect or your bad and deserve none. You earn respect, it's not given to you because your a human being. You pay your dues like the rest of us had during the arcades and old tournaments.

This is the biggest issue non-competitive gamers don't realize. We had to go through the same exact shit. Pay your dues like the rest of us. We had to go through fake death threats, harassment's, severe toxic trash talking, rape comments, and even real life events like cars being vandalized etc. That all comes with the territory. They're plenty of competitive girl gamers that successfully adapted and became well respected in fighting game communities and shooters.

They earned it from hard work and years of dedication. Then and ONLY THEN will you earn our respect as a player and as a gamer.

Please. Enough with the 'earn your dues' and this false protection of a made-up Starcraft culture. Starcraft culture was generally very different from Arcade or Fighting Game culture. As a whole, we were highly influenced by Korean Starcraft, which valued good manners. Yes, there was what was called 'ceremony'- Firebathero was the best example of ceremony, but still within a very manner environment. glhf at the beginning of games and gg at the end of games. There are certainly bad manner sections with in Starcraft- the old US East server and certain scenes in Europe. The switch from BW to SC2 might have brought in a few bad manner people (there was always Idra) but Starcraft culture was never centred around the ability to claim you are raping your opponent. That just really is not that highly valued in our circles.

edit
Looking at our own thread on Team Liquid, the general consensus amongst forum veterans- those that have actually been a part of Starcraft for a long time is that 1) Kas was dumb to make that tweet 2) the tourney was well within their right to ban, particularly because that tweet hashtagged their tourney. 3) Kas was right to apologize 4) Maddelisk handled the situation well 4) Nightend made a fool of himself. There were a handful of newbs that tried to defend Kas, but because they are dumb, they wrecked the quality of the thread causing us to lock it.

 

[FalloutJack]

Yes, let's create a culture where one stupid joke can ruin your career and you have to choose your words most carefully at all times because otherwise some milksope could feel offended. That will surely be a healthy environment and fun for everybody involved.

How hard can it be not to talk about rape? The very tone of my first post, though jokingly taking the piss out of it all, was essentially this. I'm not saying you have to be PC. PG-13 would've been fine. Even something like "I'm gonna kick all your asses" would've been less-impacting. How hard can it be to not mention rape?

 

[Kopikatsu]

Yes, let's create a culture where one stupid joke can ruin your career and you have to choose your words most carefully at all times because otherwise some milksope could feel offended. That will surely be a healthy environment and fun for everybody involved.

How hard can it be not to talk about rape? The very tone of my first post, though jokingly taking the piss out of it all, was essentially this. I'm not saying you have to be PC. PG-13 would've been fine. Even something like "I'm gonna kick all your asses" would've been less-impacting. How hard can it be to not mention rape?

Rape has more than one meaning. Telling an opponent 'I'm going to rape you/them/her/him/it' in a video game without referring to the act of sexual assault is a valid use of the word. Unless you think the Rape of Nanking is referring to a person (it is not).

Kas has said many questionable things in the past. This is not one of them.