Stealing From the Next Generation

[Nateman742]

1) Aiming a story at children is going to restrict your art. Are Wall-E and Up good films? Fuck yes, I loved them. Will they ever have as much brilliance and meaning oh what are my top 3 adult films, say Godfather, Blade Runner or A Clockwork Orange? No, never. Not their fault, but simply aiming it at a younger audience means you have to sacrifice some artistic merit. Want an example from the same director? Look at the difference in quality between Ponyo and Princess Mononoke. (And I liked Ponyo before I hear it).

2) You have to recognize what are already kind of adult themes. People assume that comics are inherently for kids, and that's not ENTIRELY wrong. But it's not entirely correct either. Batman, for example, is not an inherently childish concept. It is, when you strip away a lot of our assumptions, about a 10 year old kid who watches his parents die and, again boiling away a lot of stuff, goes completely off the wall crazy, dresses up like a Bat and starts punching criminals. Is it silly? Yes. Are there already adult concepts and stories working their way in? Oh yes.

Just some food for thought.

Those themes will be there anyway. You don't have to focus on them to make a good production. What happens when Mega Man dies? Well, Dr. Light probably rebuilds him. I could say that Roll's a pacifist because she sees her brother die all the time and there's no definitive proof otherwise. Do the endless number of enemy robots in every stage have sentience, or even intelligence? Probably. Mega Man is a child soldier in war, and he's taken countless lives on the battlefield, just because of a bitter rivalry between his father and an old colleague. It's not until the X series that these themes are really discussed, but they were always present.

While we're talking about robots: Wall-E deals with loneliness, extinction, free will, totalitarianism, death, mental instability and illness, racism, greed, regret, nuclear war, and what it means to be alive. It just doesn't shove its themes in your face to be edgy. And don't try to tell me A Clockwork Orange wasn't trying to be edgy for edgy's sake. That was part of its point.

It's your responsibility to reach your own conclusion about these things. If you refuse to do that, you have some growing up to do.

Did we REALLY, REALLY needed to hear how Bob is trashing the hardcore fanbase AGAIN!?

No, you didn't. You could have closed the article. It's that easy.

 

[Draconalis]

I thought this article was either about Star Trek or Obama's administration.

 

[sleepykid]

Agreed, although it's not to say child-aimed movies don't touch on that kind of thing regardless. Watch Fox and the Hound, you'll know what I mean.

Little off-topic, but I'm noticing people praising avatar for its ability to mesh these two, and I'm confused. To me that show has always ruined what potential it had in terms of animation and characters when it became really juvenile. For example, I remember an episode where they had to go to a secret library in order to find the fire nation's secret. Long story short, they ticked off the guardian and got into a scuffle, culminating in the guy with a boomerang hitting it from behind. His victory cry? "That's Saka style, learn it!"

I cringed.

Or when they met an old earth-bending king, who turned out to be ripped instead of a vulnerable old man. He was a bit crazy, and the jokes they tried to make him do are just...awful. He held the group hostage, with the girl shouting "let us leave!". The old loon picks up a piece of cabbage and says "Lettuce leaf?". Cue bumbling music, and my -pain-.

To me it totally breaks any sense of immersion of believability when they do something that would make even a drunk D&D party look more epic in its narrative. I admit that creating a believable world and characters might not be the intended goal, or I'm just too in love with seriousness, but is there something I'm not getting here?

 

[Traun]

Did we REALLY, REALLY needed to hear how Bob is trashing the hardcore fanbase AGAIN!?

No, you didn't. You could have closed the article. It's that easy.

I agree with Moviebob in many cases and in general I enjoy his shows, which is why I read and sometimes comment on his works. Also the fact that I can "close the article" is not an excuse. The same could be said for half the shit out there, it doesn't justify it's existence.

 

[flightofeternity]

Awesome, as per usual. I myself am one of you're younger fans, but unlike most of my brethren I really do despise changing something to fill the needs of the wider agenda. This may be partly because I quite quickly got over the whole "self conscious, hardcore" phase in my life and the fact that I became a gamer once I got a Gamecube so my first Zelda was actually a lot more different than others, once twilight princess came out I was a bit disappointed to see that Nintendo had gone back to an older (and come on lets admit it) slightly less original style just to satisfy the needs of others. After playing Wind Waker which gave the whole "Zelda" formula an EVEN MORE original outlook, this essentially set a gold standard that no game so far has reached (at least on my account). This has made me lean more towards originality than anything else. I guess its all on how, and when you got into gaming.

 

[NewGeekPhilosopher]

I agree with you here. Right now, Bob, Generation Y, that is, the dudes and dudettes who grew up in the period after Generation X which you are a part of - are the new Lost Generation - not because we've fought in a civil war in Spain or anything but because due to the focus on Gen X controlling the current media that drives stuff like Transformers and GI Joe remakes - us Gen Y kids got nothing. And when we do get it I'm hoping it won't end up like what you just described.

There's hope for Pokemon staying cute and cuddly though - Pokemon in Japan is like a nerdier version of Hello Kitty - and Nintendo is notorious for not darkening up their games originally intended for children. The Japanese have a very different sensibility when they come up with something for children than what Americans come up with - not saying American media for children is bad - Spongebob Squarepants for example was one of the most inventive ideas ever offered to my generation. I'm just saying that when a Japanese game designer makes something cute enough for children - it tends to stay cute because the character has an identity associated with children. Americans on the other hand grow up and tend to outgrow old franchises - whereas the Japanese are even more nostalgic than the Americans and Australians combined - have you seen how many high school anime they make? It's not just there for the fanservice.

Capcom have slightly been the exception to the rule though - Bionic Commando for example when it got remade turned out to be horrible - at least Street Fighter because of it's goofy ironic world warrior branding retains the fun and silliness.

God knows, if we saw a Dungeons and Dragons movie in the 1990s or early 2000s (I can't remember which) we might be seeing a Magic: The Gathering movie soon. That would more likely be a hardcore movie as opposed to Pokemon. Because Pokemon remembers that its main appeal is its childlike charm.

Excuse me while I get back to writing my own books which I hope might get adapted into movies one day. I gotta give this generation SOMETHING that isn't all doom and gloom and apathy.

 

[Rocketboy13]

In fact, who is to say the whole Pokemon world isn't something darker in itself? [http://cartoonoveranalyzations.com/2009/04/09/pokemon-explained/]

This is the sort of thing that proves English degrees are about one's own ability to BS.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

well this article points out the obvious. Yes, light-heartedness should never, ever die and looking at stuff ONLY with darker tones does not make you smarter and mature. But we also do need darker things and scream all you want, ROBIN ISN'T GOING TO BE IN BATMAN 3.

 

[saintchristopher]

Bob, in the relatively short time I've spent following your works on The Escapist, you've probably had more of a hand in refining my palate, as far as game/comics/films are concerned, than any other external influence.

I never thought there'd be room in Nolan's Gotham for a Robin until you made the case. Your unbridled enthusiasm for the impending Avengers film, and what such a thing means to the zeitgeist of cinema AND comic book culture actually inspired me to head to a for-real comic book shop for the first time and start buying monthlies, instead of the more sterile "graphic novels" section of your major bookseller.

And I've always known that "dark" or (ugh) "gritty" re-imaginings weren't better or cooler, I just never quite knew why.

Yours is an enthusiasm free of irony or cynicism, one that defends what has been good without fearing or rejecting what's coming next. For that, I salute you.

 

[hexFrank202]

Dude... seriously, I LOVE your movie reviews, I LOVE the TGO, your voice is an absolute joy to listen to (it's seriously almost nationally-syndicated-radio-talk-show-host quality), but are you really going to go over the "I don't like dark and gritty all that much" lecture again? Really? Don't you think people are kind of sick of hearing it by now, even if they agree with it? I sure am.

I think you might need to go up to the guys at the Escapist and ask them,
"You think I could start doing these blogs just every second week, instead of every seven days? Because I really have nothing to talk about half the time."

Yahtzee, you see, is able to pull the weekly blog gig off because video games take more time to talk about than movies. He spends five minutes talking about almost nothing but the current week's game (and magically never breathes) then usually he'll use his articles to dig deeper into the game at hand, going off on some behind-the-scenes aspect, some subtextual element or concept he noticed, or any unrelated topic he was reminded of.

You, however, usually sum up your opinion on a movie in a matter of seconds (you're really good at that) then spend the other four-and-a-half minutes on the semi-unrelated, over-thinking stuff (and you're really, REALLY good at that). So come on; isn't having a weekly blog in addition to that a little overkill? Maybe you do have the ability to come up with better stuff to talk about and you're just busy or distracted right now, which I suppose is fine, and I actually kind of hope that's the case.

This post seems rather... angry. Before now, I've made all of one posts on this website, and even then I still managed to do something in that solitary post that a moderator didn't appreciate. I was told that I was flaming. All I did was I criticized someone on their blog-writing skills (way more harshly than I did to you ;D). I didn't insult anybody, I didn't say anything that should reasonably offend anybody, I just provided feedback, and if I also happened to be pissed-off, I'd wish people would get over it. Well anyway, I'm not trying to say the mod was wrong to correct me like that, I just had to make a disclaimer that I AM NOT TRYING TO FLAME MOVIEBOB OR INSULT HIM. I'M GIVING HIM THE SAME KIND OF HONEST OPINION THAT HE GIVES TO FILMS AND GAMES. ^ʚ^

 

[hexFrank202]

Did we REALLY, REALLY needed to hear how Bob is trashing the hardcore fanbase AGAIN!?

No, you didn't. You could have closed the article. It's that easy.

I agree with Moviebob in many cases and in general I enjoy his shows, which is why I read and sometimes comment on his works. Also the fact that I can "close the article" is not an excuse. The same could be said for half the shit out there, it doesn't justify it's existence.

I'm glad to see that someone else is tired of Bob's constant whining of hardcore... stuff or whatever. But more importantly: you deserve a f*****g gold medal for standing up and fighting the battle against the idiotic forces of "IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS, DON'T WATCH/READ/VIEW/PLAY IT!" Also known as the most retarded and embarrassing bullcrap excuse in human existence.

Little children; gather 'round and tell me, what are comments for?
"...saying only positive things?"
No, dumbass.
"Honest feedback?"
YES! Good work! You're getting really smart! Tomorrow, I'll teach you how to tie your shoes.

 

[Nomanslander]

I remember when things that were considered hardcore at least had heart, specifically in the 80s. For instance as a kid I was really into Rambo and Robocop, two film franchises that were heavy on the gore and f-bombs but still had a fair amount of character development.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think grim and gritty is the problem, an inability to create a decent relatable character is.

If you want a prime example of the opposite of the machismo b.s. you see in films and video games today look at Jar Jar Binks and that stupid The Clone Wars movie, or any of the wannabe Pixel 3D animated films being made on every corner of Hollywood.

For me, a franchise being Disney-fied is just as depressing as seeing it get the bad watchmen treatment, they're really the same because the fact is they're both developed on the note of cliches and desperate extremes in order to gain our interest.....and hopefully our money.

 

[rddj623]

Great art is not restricted to mature execution. Mature subject matter, sure. But you can do that without being explicit. Take a look at Up, or Secondhand Lions they have mature subject matter, but it's executed in a family friendly manner. Games might be a bit harder to do that with, but I still love me some Mario. No major change necessary. Now being older I do appreciate things like There Will Be Brawl, I thought it was a brilliant neo-noir look at our favorite childhood heroes. It however knew it was just that, a re-imagining for a mature audience, it never tried to redefine the source material. Good article Bob.

 

[Kollega]

Sometimes the first duty of intellegent men is the restatement of the obvious.
- George Orwell.

Really, there's no way i could disagree with that. There's nothing i can add to it either. This article perfectly represents my opinion on the subject. I don't have anything against actual maturity (say, a well-executed film noir), but i do have a lot against GRIMDAKR - and when it comes to grimmification of the old franchises... UGH. Just... ugh.

 

[Red Priest Rezo]

No. No, no, no, no. NO. It's not rare that I'm disagreeing with you, but now you a just WRONG. And I'm not talking about the article itself - I'm talking about this part:

I'm awaiting my copy of Super Mario Galaxy 2 right now. In the broad strokes, Mario hasn't changed much since I first met him in 1986. What if he had? What if his face was just a bit more grim, Bowser just a bit more threatening, Princess Peach a bit more affectionate? I dunno. Might make a nice comic. Or a spinoff, even. Maybe. But as the Mario? No. It would be a betrayal of what he'd meant to me in the first place; and it'd be selfish of me to try and keep him for myself and deprive the next kid who hasn't found him yet. Especially for a stupid reason like "I don't want people looking at me weird when I ask for it at the store."

I've just played through 120 stars of Galaxy 2 and it's been long since the last time I was pissed off by a game that much. The reason? They dumbed it down YET AGAIN. Galaxy-1 was the closest Mario game has ever made it to having an awesome, compelling story. Yes, it still suffered because of the stupid and totally unnecessary Bowser-Peach bullshit that was thrown there only so fanboys won't start crying about their childhoods. Still, Rosalina was the first compelling character in the Marioverse EVER, The Book was so awesome I almost cried while reading it (and ever since I still feel that way every time I hear THAT music), and the whole story really looked like an epic adventure to save the Universe. It was awesome, and it would really be perfect if the villain wasn?t as pathetic as? hell, I can?t even come out with a proper analogy for Bowser?s uselessness? and if ?the special one? wasn?t a cardboard cutout made out of a dumbest cardboard in the world.

So, yeah. What they did in Galaxy 2? They threw away everything good that Galaxy 1 made, and doubled the Bowser-Peach bullshit. Just? WOW. They really think that their audience is so dumb they can?t even read a sad book? Well, I?ve never really been a Nin-fanboy, so I don?t know, maybe they?re right?.. But what I can say is that ?and it'd be selfish of me to try and keep him for myself and deprive the next kid who hasn't found him yet? is bullshit. You know why? Because they were different when we found them.

Bowser in SMB-1 was FUCKING SCARY. He lived in a grey castle with so much fire it looked like he is the ruler of hell himself. He was covered in spikes. And he had so many hammers it was really frightening. He was The Villain. And we, being kids, loved and hated him for that.

And Peach? She also wasn?t a dumb inconsiderate ***** that makes people want to kill her every time she opens her mouth to make her ?cute? noise. No, she was a Princess, a girl worthy enough to travel through hell and back to save her. We haven?t seen her all that much, so all we knew is that ?hell, she must be awesome, if Mario wants to save her THAT much?. For all we knew, she might?ve fucked Mario?s brains out the very second game ended, Right there, in Bowser?s castle, right on his still warm body. And I?m not saying that she did ? but she could have. Because she wasn?t yet turned into a dumb cake-eating trophy.

So, here is what I?m trying to say. Should be Bowser just a bit more threatening? YES. Should Princess Peach a bit more affectionate? HELL YEAH. Will it ruin Mario for potential new kids? FUCK NO. Kids are not that dumb. They can handle evil that is more threatening than a pencil sharpener. And they can handle heroines, that know what a kiss is, like to be a little sexy and most importantly ? have, you know, personalities. Want proof? Almost every good Disney or Pixar movie is a proof. And Ratchet. And Psychonauts. And Looney Tunes. And lots and lots other things that are made for children, but not for dummies.

 

[Hexenwolf]

Can't really say I disagree with any of this...although I did find that opening bit hilarious once I figured out what it was leading to.

1) Aiming a story at children is going to restrict your art. Are Wall-E and Up good films? Fuck yes, I loved them. Will they ever have as much brilliance and meaning oh what are my top 3 adult films, say Godfather, Blade Runner or A Clockwork Orange? No, never.

Why not?

Actually, yeah, why not? Wall-E and Up had quite a lot of genuine human drama, and a fair bit of meaning. If you had used, say The Little Mermaid, perhaps I would have agreed. Really, making something for children doesn't restrict it as much as you think, because if it is made for children, and made intelligently, it is possible for everyone to relate, because everyone was a child once. For example, The Little Prince. You can't argue that that story is lacking in meaning.

 

[Manji187]

It saddens me what is counted as maturity.

Yeah... is this really what it means for games to grow up? Damn, this way gaming is doomed to remain a teen forever and gaming won't have its Moonlight Sonata or Anna Karenina or Citizen Kane...

 

[veloper]

Bob uses the wrong definition of hardcore.

If you look at Nintendo and at casual online pc games, happy brightly colored games are very common. I don't think there's any danger of this style disappearing.

If the industry don't appeal to kiddies, or rather not make the games that adults would want to buy for their kids, it loses potential future customers to get hooked on gaming.
Games suitable for kids (and adults too) is Nintendo's greatest contribution to the hobby. Nintendo also make alot of money doing what they do, so no worries.

At 16+ dark grim scenarios is what many gamers apparently want to see. This isn't hardcore. Just the fluff surrounding the actual game, which is usually too easy nowadays.

 

[Biosophilogical]

Just FYI, I'd totally play that pokemon game, and I want that murderous pikachu doll to put in my room. But yes, I don't like the way industry has turned from "Let's make fun stuff" to "Let's mass produce FPS and 'dark and gritty' because it will make u filthy rich"

Then again, I may be a minority, what with my sense of childish wonder and a level of maturity that enables me to be immature in a mature fashion.

 

[ObsessiveSketch]

I was born too late to really be affected by the grim 'n' gritty transformation. The fad blew over as soon as I was starting to be interested in the mediums it had infested.

To me, nostalgia-goggles are not only far more common, but more justified.

...the emotions behind them, that is. Not necessarily the arguments.