Super Smash Creator Thinks Melee Was Too Hard
- Thread starter John Funk
- Start date
Yep. Jiggly was one of my main characters, so racking up 17 cruel kills with her Rest wasn't too hard. (I am impressed with by 7 for Ness, though). That being said, there are people who live for Cruel melee, getting hundreds of kills.Matrixbeast said:
I have to be honest, I don't understand what Sakurai is talking about here by "hard." The SSB series is primarily about versus play, where it's the skill of your friends that you have to beat - so the only neutral difficulty everyone has to overcome is learning the controls. And SSB does a wonderful job of making the controls very simple (and standardized - what happens with a given button-direction input is different, but those inputs are the same for every character), one of the reasons why SSB and SSBM are among my favourite games ever, and why in comparison I will never really get into 'normal' fighting games. More than anything, SSB makes the game less about having to memorize move lists, and instead puts the focus on movement (particularly with the variety of stages, but simply having double-jumping and multiple aerials does this) and the timing of moves.
Timing. Yes, very important in each of the games, because each has a very different rate of play. The original is extremely lag-based: that is, almost every move has a lot of lag after it that allows your opponents to exploit your attack and kick your butt. Probably the most obvious place this comes in to play are the treacherous grab-vs-roll battles that arise when both or all of you are at high percentages. (Ever been in a 4p battle with everyone at 120% and one life? Holy crap, that was tense.)
SSBM is, in contrast, quite fast-paced, and frequently depends on taking in what your opponents are doing and responding fast enough. However, it's also a bit more lenient than the original in this regard, particularly since throws were tuned way down in power. I think a lot of the 'technicality' people talk about when referring to melee originates from the fast pace of the game.
(Of course, wave-dashing constitutes another huge part of it, but wave-dashing should have never made it into the final game and should have been killed when the developers found it. The broken play base and bad rap it has created is simply shocking, particularly since the game is plenty deep without it. I say this as someone who doesn't use it but has played against several who have (and done respectably, I should say - one friend commented that I seemed to unconsciously play as characters who wouldn't benefit much from wave-dashing anyway). Wave-dashing might have contributed to the longevity of the game, but (since I refuse to learn it) I know for a fact that I would still be playing it today (like I still do) regardless of the existence of wave-dashing. Hell, without it, tournaments might not be the farce of the game that they are (relying so astoundingly on one glitch), and I might even have cared to play in those.)
Perhaps because Melee's play speed is just right for me, Brawl feels like a freakin' glacier. Coupled with gimmicky stages (which seemed to take the worst elements of the Melee stages), Final Smashes (which spit balance right in the face, with some of them ridiculously powerful, others terribad), and the incompetent way of killing wave-dashing (seriously, you killed directional air dodges? like, one of the best mechanics in the previous game? you couldn't think of anything else?), Brawl is not the game for me. Of course, I don't really care, because as stated I continue to play Melee to this day, and I will for many years to come.
tl;dr: Smash Bros was better than all other fighting games ever, Melee's 'technicality' is hyperbolized, and I don't like Brawl. (So, if Sakurai is basically saying that he's not going to take design lessons from Melee anymore, then that's fine - it just means I very likely won't be interested in any future Smash Bros games. I've got my SSB and SSBM and intend to play them.)
(Now, if Sakurai is saying that the player-vs-computer portion of the game is bad, well then no shit. It's because computer players in Smash Bros have never been played like any actual players do, regardless of difficulty. But this is most noticeable at the higher difficulties, where the computers are simply cheating bastards - they still walk places and can't see items (except when that item is off-screen, of course), yet have the miraculous ability to shield reflect and cancel everything.)
Hm, I never got the mentality "Stop Having Fun Guys"
Smash Bros is supposed to be a madcap free for all, and playing it as an orderly skill based tournament fighter just kinda takes the fun out of it.
Smash Bros is supposed to be a madcap free for all, and playing it as an orderly skill based tournament fighter just kinda takes the fun out of it.
Put simply, it's a different kind of game. Smash Bros. is nothing like any other fighting game in the sense that the traditional rules and physics are thrown out the window. you're knocking them off of the stage rather than depleting their vitality. It's considered a combo within the rules of this game.WOPR said:
That's why many Street Fighter and Tekken purists can't get their heads round it. It's about reaction times and a grasp of the level and how you can use it to your advantage, while Street Fighter is either about applying pressure until your opponent makes a mistake you can punish and get a combo from, correctly using distance to your advantage and using the correct move at the correct time.
KI is all about not getting your ass beat in like 12 seconds. Orchid and Saberwulf were gods, and T.J. Combo offended me in many ways as a character.
I loved the 64 version, CG version was way less fun, Wii version fits nicely in the middle I think.
*Sigh.*
I remember the days where I didn't have to throw down a bunch of stipulations just to enjoy a game of Smash Bros Melee. Good times.
While I didn't really like Brawl myself (for other reasons unrelated to multiplayer/vs) it was gratifying to watch the tourney-only-players squirm.
I remember the days where I didn't have to throw down a bunch of stipulations just to enjoy a game of Smash Bros Melee. Good times.
Then came the dark ages where if you didn't wavedash, you were automatically a talentless scrub who shouldn't even dare to play the game. No really. Most tourney players I know (and I knew a LOT of self-proclaimed Smash Bros "Pros") had exactly that mentality.
It was like the instant you brought up Smash Bros, these people changed into someone completely different. Didn't help that that other "someone" was always a complete asshole.
I also remember when Brawl was announced. The tourney-goers who turned Smash Bros Melee into "Gamecube Controller Rape: The Game" were then pissing and moaning endlessly about how there was going to be no wavedashing or teching (pretentious, self-important fuckwits that they were) and then had the audacity to claim how that was going to "ruin the game".
Ruin? Ruined for them maybe. Now they didn't have artificial leverage over all the poor saps who didn't dedicate their life to mastering all of the unintentional glitches and abuses on Smashboards.
It finally got to the point where I witnessed a fist fight break out over the results of a tourney in Smash Bros Melee. Before you ask, actually no alcohol was involved.
That was the last time I played Melee with people who weren't close friends or relatives, because quite frankly, it was beyond lunacy at that point (especially at my college).
The depths some of these people would go towards just to stoke their ego was appalling; some friendships even ended over that stupid game.
Perhaps if these people actually played the game once in a while rather than obsess over how to beat maybe three other characters on one map using glitches, they would have noticed that Melee was a really fun game.
It was like the instant you brought up Smash Bros, these people changed into someone completely different. Didn't help that that other "someone" was always a complete asshole.
I also remember when Brawl was announced. The tourney-goers who turned Smash Bros Melee into "Gamecube Controller Rape: The Game" were then pissing and moaning endlessly about how there was going to be no wavedashing or teching (pretentious, self-important fuckwits that they were) and then had the audacity to claim how that was going to "ruin the game".
Ruin? Ruined for them maybe. Now they didn't have artificial leverage over all the poor saps who didn't dedicate their life to mastering all of the unintentional glitches and abuses on Smashboards.
It finally got to the point where I witnessed a fist fight break out over the results of a tourney in Smash Bros Melee. Before you ask, actually no alcohol was involved.
That was the last time I played Melee with people who weren't close friends or relatives, because quite frankly, it was beyond lunacy at that point (especially at my college).
The depths some of these people would go towards just to stoke their ego was appalling; some friendships even ended over that stupid game.
Perhaps if these people actually played the game once in a while rather than obsess over how to beat maybe three other characters on one map using glitches, they would have noticed that Melee was a really fun game.
While I didn't really like Brawl myself (for other reasons unrelated to multiplayer/vs) it was gratifying to watch the tourney-only-players squirm.
Turning off everything that makes the game fun is exactly the same reason why I dislike MLG and everything it does to video games, particularly Halo and Smash. Stripping out the variety takes away from fun and the skill of adaptability.
And if you want combos, I got combos son!WOPR said:
P.S. MvC 3 scares me. There are videos posted of Dante doing 100% combos already and the game isn't even out yet!
True, but the game still being tournament viable proved that it still had a good amount of depth to it regardless of it having so many random moments of utter insanity.RatRace123 said:
I just don't like what this spells for the franchise. I'm pretty convinced there will be a title of some sort for the 3DS, but what kind of game will it be?
i know this is a little off topic but i had never even heard of wavedashing before this thread, i consider myself quite good at brawl and meele and having just watched a video on wavedashing i honestly don't see how it gives you an advantage. If someone approached me at that speed i'd still have time to dodge away, or as i like to play link i could easily pull a spin attack outa my ass and send them flying. are you still considered dodging while you're wavedashing or something?
*EDIT*
ah i can see edge hogging being a ***** though
*EDIT*
ah i can see edge hogging being a ***** though
Personally, I liked Melee better. I couldn't even say why, it's just something about it I guess
The thing is, wavedashing is not needed to be goodAtmos Duality said:
Smash bros is the one game which I truly think I am good at, others I'm meh so take that as you will
But I can honestly tell you, whoever tells you that wavedashing was a vital technique is a idiot
I moved just as fast based on my reflexes and skill alone and I didn't need to take advantage of a stupid glitch
It certainly can enhance your ability if you were already good, but it was never a deal breaker if you didn't use it
I think brawl introduced a really, really bad element to it though and that was the rise of the camper
Flat courses like Final destination now benefit characters like pit who can spam you from the other side and then dodge when you come in to stop them and do it all over again(It is a beatable tactic, but christ did you have to work much harder than they ever would to beat them)
Tourney players I agree are idiots all around
Initially they thought Wario wasn't a good character, yet when I played him I found incredible potential there
Year later, he's on the top tier list when he was initally considered really crap
Then the ridiculous Final Destination only crap
Courses that were fine and didn't introduce random random elements or moved ( which does disadvantage certain characters, don't deny it)were still banned despite being perfectly fine
It's just ridiculous and its no wonder why MLG never took them seriously.
May I ask out of curiosity what that fistfight was about? How exactly did the player feel cheated?
As opposed to standing still and pressing down b every now and then. It's fun to jump at people in mid-air and counter. They can't grab while jumping, so I'm perfectly safe while doing so. Playing Marth was fun, but it was hard to beat someone who was the same size, only a little slower and had flame attacks.JoeNightmare said:
I did. Then I flood of memories (mostly bad) came at me.Dioxide20 said:
Ahh yes. You bring up the point of "a good game should be easy to learn but difficult to master". Melee was just that. You could learn how to fight rather easily. Yet the challenges were just that: challenging. I don't see the point of challenges if you can get every one of them in one go. At that point gaming is just busy work.Palademon said:
I've met good players who do not wavedash. I've played good players who do not wavedash.AsurasFinest said:
One of the best games I ever had was one of my friends as Zelda vs me as Fox* on one of the Kirby stages (the woods, I believe).
*(it's so sad that my favorite character from the original Smash Bros. turned out to be one of the most innately broken characters in melee. I had no idea that Fox was so good in the metagame when I started playing.)
But problem with wavedashing then wasn't just frame-skipping abuse, it was the attitude of these players who believed they were Gaming Jesus because they could do it.
Most of those I interacted with honestly thought that they were achieving a "Higher skill/calling" by mastering this skill to be used in an incredibly limited metagame they created.
That wasn't my specific problem with Brawl, but then again, Melee's competitive crowd left me with nothing by the time they were done ruining the game for me.
The one good thing to come out of this mess was that I eventually formed a gaming "thesis" on the concept of stagnant metagames in competitive/sports games, which in turn has helped me better understand game design, if only a little.
But I digress. My main problem with Brawl is the incredibly wonky and forgiving smash attack/velocity ratios. That is, the launch multiplier a character's attacks have when they go to finish a target off.
Between that effect, and stages that deliberately hate on whoever is in first place, the game can become incredibly frustrating to play at times.
That, and the Subspace Emissary sucked. Smash Bros. does not really translate very well into a platforming game I'm afraid (ironic, when one considers that it is descended directly from Kirby Superstar).
Ugh...it was so petty.
The loser accused the winner of having his friends intentionally distract him during the final matches; claiming that it wasn't becoming a problem until then.
Words were exchanged, and when words failed, fists were exchanged. I called campus security anonymously, then left. Though I think I left more than that crowd behind.
Really? I didn't think Melee was all that bad. It was only the more extreme challenges that gave me a hard time.
Incidentally, I think disallowing certain characters from tournaments is just a sign of poor sportsmanship. A truly skilled gamer, who had confidence in their skills, could win with any character against any character and wouldn't need to make pitiful excuses for their losses; and would instead, in the event of a loss, humbly acknowledge the superior skill of their opponent. It's called sportsmanship, it's not just exclusive to sports.
...sorry, got off on a tangent there.
Incidentally, I think disallowing certain characters from tournaments is just a sign of poor sportsmanship. A truly skilled gamer, who had confidence in their skills, could win with any character against any character and wouldn't need to make pitiful excuses for their losses; and would instead, in the event of a loss, humbly acknowledge the superior skill of their opponent. It's called sportsmanship, it's not just exclusive to sports.
...sorry, got off on a tangent there.