Sword Fighting in Games Is Dull

Soviet Heavy

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And yes, the pun in the title is intentional. Sword fighting in games of hack and slash or RPGs is really boring most of the time. It feels like you are clubbing someone to death with a dull blade (see? It was intentional!) rather than slashing and thrusting with a deadly weapon.

It has always pulled me out of a game when what looks like it would be a lethal hit only takes off a chunk of health instead of just killing someone outright.

With this in mind, I've come up with a system that could make combat more lethal without making it look dumber in the process.

#1. Animations.
Leave hits on the body for killing moves or slashes. Instead of whacking at someone until they fall over, make the animations show blocks and parries whenever you attack. Instead of chipping away at someone's health, you are beating down their defense. Slashing, dodging, blocking with a shield all look really damn cool.

This not only looks a hell of a lot cooler than just beating a guy like a stead tenderizer, but it also makes more sense. It is about making it through their defensive wall and getting a killing blow in past their guard. That makes the kill all the more satisfying.

#2. Momentum, Endurance, Vigor
Instead of a health bar, you have three values to take into account: Momentum, Endurance, and Vigor.
Momentum
Momentum stands in for Damage. Any weapon can be lethal, so placing a numerical value on it makes no sense. Instead, give each weapon a level of momentum. Momentum reflects how much pressure you can put onto your opponent as you wail on his guard, representing the aggression of your attack.

For example, a morning star would be a weapon with high momentum. To be used effectively, you need to keep the pressure on, swinging the ball and chain in a constant motion in order to land a hit. This amount of momentum allows for more damaging hits.

On the opposite end is a dagger. It has a lower momentum due to the lightweight nature of the weapon. It is harder to put up a constant attack like the morning star achieves, but it is counterbalanced by the other two values.

Vigor
Vigor acts like your mana bar, or how long you can hold up an attack. Using the morning star example, it has very high momentum, but its weight and awkwardness limit your amount of vigor you can use. This makes the weapon better for shock attacks to overwhelm an enemy quickly, but it is not well designed for prolonged combat, as your vigor drains very fast while using it.

The dagger works better here, as it is lightweight, and easy to handle. This makes it better to use in longer attacks, whittling down an opponent over time. It has a higher vigor pool, allowing it to last longer in a fight.

Endurance
Endurance is how long you can last before getting hit and killed. Depending on your equipment, Endurance can be affected in different ways. Using a shield and heavy armor gives you a high endurance, but they affect your vigor due to their weight. So armour allows you to last longer in a fight, but you have to fight smarter due to the limits it puts on your vigor.

Contrasting is light armor such as leather. It gives you less endurance, but also more vigor, since it is lighter.

Endurance can recharge, much like how in real life we can catch our breath. So you have to juggle how hard you go on the attack, lowering your vigor, which leaves you more open to counterattack adversely affecting your Endurance. When to commit and when to play defensive is key.

Putting them all together
So the gameplay works through how these three values affect each other, altering how you play. Do you use a high momentum weapon with heavy armor, making you lethal on the first attack, but much more vulnerable in the follow up? Or do you use lightweight equipment allowing you to attack further, but you are less able to defend yourself?

Attacks
First of all, no quicktime events. You have three attacks: Horizontal, Vertical, and Lunge. Horizontal attacks work well with less momentum weapons like daggers or knives, slashing swiftly to whittle down their endurance. Vertical attacks work well with the morning star due to the high momentum, using the crushing power to your advantage. Lunges are very risky: you stand the chance to kill an enemy outright, but you could also over exert yourself, resulting in a big hit to your endurance if they counter you while you are extended.

I'm still working on how this would all be applied in the context of gameplay, but I wondered what you guys thought of it first. Please leave comments on what you think works and what could be improved.
 

garjian

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How does this system deal with the 'Parry, force your opponent to one side and stab in back' move that fighting with a shield should generally lead to?
...or at least... Parrying in its more conventional push-back-and-stun sense?

if it doesnt exist, this system means that Vigor > Opponent's Endurance = win, and vice-versa.
(Block until they cant attack (assuming they cant block in that state), win... Attack until they cant block, win.)

...i dont like it yet. Best system to me is still one that is easy, but rewards style... but this definitely sounds better than Oblivion's horrible combat.

Edit: I hadnt considered multiple enemies... this REALLY wouldnt work 2+ on 1... which is realistic, but terrible for gameplay.
 

krazykidd

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Had to check to see if this was another of EternalNothingness's threads before i answered or i would have abstained ( wait lemme check again, okay were good )

Now while i do agree with your points i don't see this working in a fast paced game. It could work for a game like prince of persia 2008 , but with sonething like say dragon age 2, it wouldn't work. Because with the fast gameplay ane multiple enemies , it's way too much to keep track of ( especially for casual gamers. Also are you losing endurance everytime you sucessfully block with your sheild? Or you don't lose anything from say a well times block whereas shotty block will make you lose more endurance?

Not that your example is broken ( it makes a lot of sense even ), but it seems like it would be a constest to see who can get the first hit and keep the pressure on till the other one breaks , like chipping at a wall . And it wouldn't really be fair when fighting ofr multiple opponents . But i could see it working in very specific games.( maybe a elder scrolls game?)
 

Pedro The Hutt

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We could always simply hope for another Bushido Blade, or a similar game where one sword strike to the head or body can full well be fatal, where a strike to the arm renders it useless and if your leg gets hit you'll be limping around for the rest of the match.
 

Soviet Heavy

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krazykidd said:
Had to check to see if this was another of EternalNothingness's threads before i answered or i would have abstained ( wait lemme check again, okay were good )

Now while i do agree with your points i don't see this working in a fast paced game. It could work for a game like prince of persia 2008 , but with sonething like say dragon age 2, it wouldn't work. Because with the fast gameplay ane multiple enemies , it's way too much to keep track of ( especially for casual gamers. Also are you losing endurance everytime you sucessfully block with your sheild? Or you don't lose anything from say a well times block whereas shotty block will make you lose more endurance?

Not that your example is broken ( it makes a lot of sense even ), but it seems like it would be a constest to see who can get the first hit and keep the pressure on till the other one breaks , like chipping at a wall . And it wouldn't really be fair when fighting ofr multiple opponents . But i could see it working in very specific games.( maybe a elder scrolls game?)
Vigor and Endurance regenerate over time, representing catching one's breath. A shield will give you higher endurance by offering more protection, but it hampers your attack ability with vigor, since one hand is holding a heavy shield. It just means that your attacks have to be more considerate since you have a lower pool of vigor to work with, being the tradeoff for better protection.
 

Michael Hirst

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I've always hated how blade contact seems to have no bearing on the game at all, look at Devil May Cry or God of War, you can swipe your wepaons like crazy and most enemies have no physical reaction to being hit, it's no different from an MMO where your sword glides through the enemy and the only proof it ever happened is some numbers appearing.
 

The Holy Chaotic

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Just clarifying, by RPG do you mean the Dragon Age or MMORPG type, or the J-RPG/Traditional kind like Suikoden or Xenosaga?
 

TPiddy

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Boy you guys haven't played Dead Island I take it.... the weapons have solid weight to them you can sever several parts of limbs, so if you want to cut the leg off at the knee or the ankle, both are possible... you can break bones including necks, arms, legs, back, and the zombies all react quite realistically to them...

Nothing is as fun as breaking both a zombie's arms with a sledgehammer and then watching him flail around at you....
 

Soviet Heavy

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The Holy Chaotic said:
Just clarifying, by RPG do you mean the Dragon Age or MMORPG type, or the J-RPG/Traditional kind like Suikoden or Xenosaga?
More Action RPG like Dragon Age 2, Witcher or Fable.
 

dyre

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Yeah, first person sword fighting a la Oblivion is pretty boring. The Witcher 2 has a nice combat system, but it could be improved with a more fluid vigor bar (as in, not just 2 to 5 blocks of energy) and your momentum suggestion (sort of reflected in the chained attacks in Witcher 1, where you could use heavy, follow-through attacks, or quick, weaker strikes against groups)
 

Deathninja19

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In general I agree but you have some amazing sword fighting mechanics in some best examples I can think of is Assassins Creed and Demon's/Dark Souls I'm sure there's more but I can't be bothered to think of em.
 

Michael Wall

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Have you tried Dark Souls? That game has a pretty good balance I think. Your equipment is limited by your endurance attribute, which also governs your stamina bar. More endurance = heavier armor and more swings. Blocking with a shield stops some or all of the damage, and instead drains a portion of the damage from your stamina bar, so you need to be careful when you attack and when you block. You are also able to parry, leaving the opponent open for a "finishing move" which is basically just a free critical hit. you can also backstab in the same way, by getting behind the enemy. Overall it is an odd system to get used to for me, but I loved it once I got into it.
 

GrandmaFunk

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Check out the Mount&Blade series(specifically Warband), it uses a melee system fairly close to what you describe.

it's extremely hard to master, the Multiplayer scene has the biggest difficulty ramp-up i've seen in any game. ex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG0YM35goSE
 

The Holy Chaotic

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Soviet Heavy said:
The Holy Chaotic said:
Just clarifying, by RPG do you mean the Dragon Age or MMORPG type, or the J-RPG/Traditional kind like Suikoden or Xenosaga?
More Action RPG like Dragon Age 2, Witcher or Fable.
Ah, okay. I have very little experience with these types of games, but your visual suggestions do seem really cool. I'm just wondering if that'll require more processing power to run (or some other tech term, I know little about how games are made :p)?

As for the "Momentum, Vigor, Endurance" ideas, I can actually see that being added to Traditional RPG's. :D

Hell, Oblivion could have used all of your ideas. Would have made combat more interesting.
 

Kopikatsu

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A bit off topic, but sword fights in real life weren't all that spectacular either, yanno. There wasn't any of that fancy shmancy twirling and constant parrying. It was mostly: Draw sword, dodge first swing, run opponent through, sheath sword.
 

Imre Csete

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Try Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

That's a fantasy FPS hack and slash.
 

Popadoo

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Dark Souls.
Go my son, and enjoy the greatest sword fighting gameplay of any game ever.