Target Australia will no longer stock GTA5

irishda

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I...I don't know how so many of the people in this thread look at the world. Like I don't get it.

Where's the line between "Our customers asked us not to stock this and we agreed" and "We've been forced not to sell this by radical bullies. We had no choice" for these people? What's the difference between presenting an opinion and "forcing it down people's throats"?

I don't know. How do you guys get around with all those mountains all over the place?
 

peruvianskys

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Ilovechocolatemilk said:
But there is no sideplot to murder prostitutes! Do you get it?
But there is a specific mechanic to have sex with prostituted women, who can then be murdered.

The race comparison doesn't really work because there is no social role out there that is specifically filled almost completely with black folks, unlike the sex industry which is over 85% women (and most of the 15% that are male are children).
 

WhiteNachos

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So the violence against women is wrong but all of the same violence (and more) done against men in the game is not worth complaining about?

What a bunch of sexist assholes.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Loonyyy said:
Also: In Australia, we don't get gunned down and killed everyday.
Speak for yourself. I get gunned down and killed all the time.

...

I'm assuming 'gunned down and killed' is what the kids these days call getting pants-shittingly drunk.
 

WhiteNachos

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peruvianskys said:
Ilovechocolatemilk said:
But there is no sideplot to murder prostitutes! Do you get it?
But there is a specific mechanic to have sex with prostituted women, who can then be murdered.
ANYONE can be murdered? If I wanted to be an asshole I could claim this game is anti taxi driver because you can get a cab to take you where ever you want then drag the taxi driver out of the cab and murder them for cash.

peruvianskys said:
The race comparison doesn't really work because there is no social role out there that is specifically filled almost completely with black folks, unlike the sex industry which is over 85% women (and most of the 15% that are male are children).
When it comes to taxi drivers the numbers are even MORE skewed. Less than 1 percent of taxi drivers in New York are women.
http://www.internationalwomensday.com/article.asp?m=6&e=21#.VH_vn8lZiSp

GTA encourages violence against cab drivers and is misandrist. Won't someone think of the children.
 

irishda

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Here Comes Tomorrow said:
Random anomoly or setting a dangerous presedent?
What happened to not taking away our games, or is this just Australia being weird about stuff as usual?
Will spiders be banned next for biting women? Because Australia is full of spiders that kill women.
Can we get God Of War taken of shelves yet? I feel the disgusting violence against the Ancient Greek pantheon has gone on long enough.
Well, I dunno. Truly this dangerous precedent of stores not selling something they decide not to is the first step into a horrific wasteland of censorship and political correctness. I can only pray the internet will save us.
 

WhiteNachos

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Thorn14 said:
Grisly detailed torture of a man? Eh.
Funny how when that was brought up by people, it was shouted down.

Vast majority of cops and other enemies you kill are men? Eh.
Funny how when that was brought up, it was also shouted down.

Actually, that's been one of the longest running critiques against the series.

But acknowledging these things would probably make it a lot harder to reframe things in a convenient fashion.

totheendofsin said:
They mentioned the games 'depictions of violence against women' now it's been a while since I've played it but I don't recall any violence against women in the game, unless they are talking about how you are capable of killing female NPCs IN THE SAME WAY YOU CAN KILL MALE NPCs!
You can kill men after hiring them for sex? Must have missed that part. Can you tell me how to hire male prostitutes?
Right after you explain how this qualifies as sexual violence and after you explain how it encourages violence against women (men can also be murdered for money).

E: And when were those arguments shot down? I must've missed that.
 

Alatar The Red

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Zhukov said:
Again with the "censorship". Jesus, leave the poor word alone. It's already suffered enough.

GTA5 is not being censored. It is entirely legal to own, buy, sell and play GTA5 in Australia. This is a couple of retail outlets choosing not to stock a particular product because they wish to avoid offending their customers.

A few months ago a nearby bakery stopped stocking a kind of pie I really liked. Tell me, was that pie censored?
Tell that to the film directors directing NC17 movies.

We know that it's perfectly legal to do this. But something being legal doesn't mean that it isn't a problem or dangerous. I'd be really careful about being even slightly supportive of moves like this. Do we really want to go down a path where some products are only sold in some outlets due to the political beliefs of the owners of those outlets? Do we really want a situation where people are forced to step down (fired) for their political beliefs? Do we want a situation where in order to get your game (or any other product) sold by all major retailers you have to not even accidentally offend any of the owners or activist groups? No I'm pretty sure we don't want any of that, but that's what a lot of people seem to be okay with.

Again, NC17 movies. Yeah it's legal that most places don't show them or carry them. All that happened was that most big movies are purposefully cut and neutered by directors to avoid getting hit with the legal yet extremely harmful banning by most companies. And it doesn't even matter if you're not in the states, the movies will still be dumbed down.

You know what would be good for artistic expression and diversity of thoughts and ideas? Stopping shit like this. Stopping shit like gamergate's "let's email advertisers". Stopping the shaming of people who create certain kinds of art (and yes that includes my little pony as well as driving over hookers after you got a BJ from them in GTAV). I think that's something that we should as a society work towards no?

It almost seems like people these days don't know how to live and let live. And are actually campaigning actively against that mentality.

Yes all this stuff is legal. But I sure as hell will not in any way show support for it because these things happening on a big scale have clearly affected (negatively) the artistic freedom and creativity of certain forms of media.
 

peruvianskys

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WhiteNachos said:
ANYONE can be murdered? If I wanted to be an asshole I could claim this game is anti taxi driver because you can get a cab to take you where ever you want then drag the taxi driver out of the cab and murder them for cash.
There is not currently a thousand-year epidemic of violence and abuse perpetrated towards cab drivers.



peruvianskys said:
When it comes to taxi drivers the numbers are even MORE skewed. Less than 1 percent of taxi drivers in New York are women.
http://www.internationalwomensday.com/article.asp?m=6&e=21#.VH_vn8lZiSp

GTA encourages violence against cab drivers and is misandrist. Won't someone think of the children.
1) One's sex is not particularly relevant to the institution of cab-driving. One's sex is central to the institution of prostitution.

2) As I said before, no one is currently enacting a regime of violence against cab drivers. If cab drivers were subject to the levels of rape, abuse, and murder that prostituted women are, I would understand if cab drivers were upset.

Nods Respectfully Towards You said:
peruvianskys said:
I don't care if women are killed as bystanders - there's nothing *inherently* sinful about the idea of killing a woman. What I care about is a very real, very deadly thing - the sex trade - being turned into a fun game.

Like, I don't care that you can shoot black folks who are wandering around as NPCs - but I would care quite a bit if there was a sideplot that had you go out and attempt to specifically murder black folks. See the difference?
Wow, you really seem to have your priorities out of order. I don't see how you can freak out over something as fairly miniscule of a feature as prostitution in the game when you can pretty much commit heinous acts of murder and other such illegal activities which are just as bad if not worse than prostitution and not even bat an eye. No, it's the simple fact that prostitution exists in a game about being a criminal engaging in various crimes that you focus on.
There are very few men who steal cars and go on murder rampages for fun in real life. There are a lot of men who rape, abuse, and murder prostituted women.
 

WhiteNachos

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peruvianskys said:
Zhukov said:
OMG, IT'S CENSORSH...

No, hang on, it's a business responding to customer feedback and choosing not to sell a specific product that is still freely available to anyone who wishes to buy it.

"We are your customers, listen to our feedback! Hear our voices! Obey our comm... whoa, whoa, don't listen to those customers, they're feminazi SJW marxists!"

Heh. I love you all. I really do.
Bingo! This is my response exactly - for a community that whines over and over about how retailers and developers won't listen to them, they sure do get upset when the same folks *start* listening...to the people they don't like.

rob_simple said:
Almost as immature as, say, petitioning to have a game removed from sale at a store because you, personally, find its content disagreeable?

Nobody was forcing these idiots to buy a copy of GTA V, this is just a company bending to the will of some reactionary puritan dipshits because they cried the loudest but, as others have rightly said, it won't stop people buying it elsewhere so, hey, if Target don't wanna stock one of the best-selling games of all time then that is literally their loss.
They aren't opposed to GTA 5 because they "find its content disagreeable" - they're opposed to GTA 5 because it allows you to murder prostituted women. That's not "puritanism". Puritans loved violence against women. This is a basic expression of feminism: We probably shouldn't turn violence against women into a hobby.
Luckily this isn't actual violence then.

In all seriousness that's the same kind of feminist puritanism that says S and M is misogynistic and abusive when a woman is in the submissive role. And in this case it's incredibly hypocritical since you can commit the same violence against men in this and other games.

Also it goes against the whole 'we want equal representation in games' argument.
 

peruvianskys

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WhiteNachos said:
Luckily this isn't actual violence then.

In all seriousness that's the same kind of feminist puritanism that says S and M is misogynistic and abusive when a woman is in the submissive role. And in this case it's incredibly hypocritical since you can commit the same violence against men in this and other games.

Also it goes against the whole 'we want equal representation in games' argument.
There is no "puritanism" involved in a condemnation of simulated violence against women - which I oppose, whether it's in video games or in the sexual practices of men, so...
 

Zhukov

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WhiteNachos said:
Zhukov said:
OMG, IT'S CENSORSH...

No, hang on, it's a business responding to customer feedback and choosing not to sell a specific product that is still freely available to anyone who wishes to buy it.

"We are your customers, listen to our feedback! Hear our voices! Obey our comm... whoa, whoa, don't listen to those customers, they're feminazi SJW marxists!"

Heh. I love you all. I really do.
Yeah how dare we be upset that they pulled a game based off lies.
Oh no, you are entirely free to be upset.

Just as the people who asked Target to pull the game are free to be offended and ask Target to pull the game.

Luckily, I am entirely free to think that it is all hilarious.
 

WhiteNachos

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peruvianskys said:
WhiteNachos said:
ANYONE can be murdered? If I wanted to be an asshole I could claim this game is anti taxi driver because you can get a cab to take you where ever you want then drag the taxi driver out of the cab and murder them for cash.
There is not currently a thousand-year epidemic of violence and abuse perpetrated towards cab drivers.
No shit. Cars haven't been around for thousands of years. Do you have a point?

The arguments about whether this stuff is offensive or encourages real life violence don't change based on how long the crime has been happening.


peruvianskys said:
2) As I said before, no one is currently enacting a regime of violence against cab drivers. If cab drivers were subject to the levels of rape, abuse, and murder that prostituted women are, I would understand if cab drivers were upset.
There actually have been cab drivers who complained about it.

And why does there need to be an "epidemic" of the crime before their complaints are valid? That just seems like a totally arbitrary criteria.

But if you insist, how about cops? I'm sure they've been murdered for thousands of years. Hell if you kill cops in the game you get a gun, which is far more useful than the petty cash you get for killing civilians.

But my cab driver comparison works because the game "encourages" you to kill prostitutes just as much as it "encourages" you to kill cab drivers. That whole complaint has always been much ado about nothing. Just taking shit out of context so you can pretend the game encourages violence against women or whoever. It's the same shit the media tried decades ago when they were demonizing games (including lying about the existence of sexual violence in the games), and it's sad that some people are buying it nowadays.
 

WhiteNachos

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peruvianskys said:
WhiteNachos said:
Luckily this isn't actual violence then.

In all seriousness that's the same kind of feminist puritanism that says S and M is misogynistic and abusive when a woman is in the submissive role. And in this case it's incredibly hypocritical since you can commit the same violence against men in this and other games.

Also it goes against the whole 'we want equal representation in games' argument.
There is no "puritanism" involved in a condemnation of simulated violence against women - which I oppose, whether it's in video games or in the sexual practices of men, so...
You oppose the condemnation or you oppose the simulated acts of violence?

I think there is something puritan about butting into people's sex lives and telling adults what consensual acts they should and shouldn't do out of their own personal sense of "morality".
 

Itdoesthatsometimes

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Nods Respectfully Towards You said:
Yeah... there is no rape in the game other than the rape of a man which you seem to have ignored. There's also no opportunities to abuse prostitutes either, the most you can do with them is treat them like any other NPC in the game or have sex with them. This isn't a prostitute rape and murder simulator, it's fucking GTAV. You're just obsessed with a fairly trivial mechanic that has almost no bearing on the rest of the game.
I had heard about the rape mods, but the game has actual rape before mods?

Even more glad I did never played it.
 

WhiteNachos

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peruvianskys said:
1) One's sex is not particularly relevant to the institution of cab-driving.
Neither is it relevant to the act of killing pedestrians in GTA. The same stuff happens whether you kill a man or a woman, and it offers the same amount of "encouragement".
 

peruvianskys

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WhiteNachos said:
You oppose the condemnation or you oppose the simulated acts of violence?

I think there is something puritan about butting into people's sex lives and telling adults what consensual acts they should and shouldn't do out of their own personal sense of "morality".
I oppose the simulated acts of violence. Men have no business engaging in sexual behavior that mimicks the violence they do to women outside the bedroom on a daily basis.

Our sexual behaviors can and do perpetuate oppressive social systems and are not beyond critique. There's nothing "moralizing" about it.

WhiteNachos said:
No shit. Cars haven't been around for thousands of years. Do you have a point?

The arguments about whether this stuff is offensive or encourages real life violence don't change based on how long the crime has been happening.
The point is that women aren't complaining because they "don't like it" - they're complaining because the actions being simulated happen *every goddamn day* and it's insensitive and shitty for men to derive enjoyment from simulating them while men are also going out and doing the actual violence.


And why does there need to be an "epidemic" of the crime before their complaints are valid? That just seems like a totally arbitrary criteria.
Because the complaint is that we should not make a fun little side thing in a game out of a serious crime that is currently very common and almost completely unopposed in our society. That's the whole point.

But if you insist, how about cops? I'm sure they've been murdered for thousands of years. Hell if you kill cops in the game you get a gun, which is far more useful than the petty cash you get for killing civilians.
I don't care about cops. I hate cops.