Teaching kids about homosexuality

[Rascarin]

Just going to point out that homosexuality isn't a viable choice, and the why is because they're all so insecure. In Australia, not sure about other countries, they're pushing for a law. This law means that in schools, between grades three and five, children will be given a multiple choice test. Their sexual preference will be determined by this test, and they will then be segregated and treated differently.

Seriously? Can you cite a source for this? If true, this is... beyond terrible.

 

[spartandude]

Not everyone is born gay, while people most certainly don't CHOOSE to be gay, that doesn't mean it can't develop because of external stimuli.

BULLSHIT.
http://psychcentral.com/news/2008/06/30/genetics-and-environment-shape-sexual-orientation/2522.html

i accept environmental factors cause it but i still dont believe it to be genetic

 

[Legendairy314]

I don't think that a child has to be taught about homosexuality but should be made aware of it. As kids grow up they tend to treat the abnormal with disregard and hatred if others agree that it just isn't something that should be done. Showing a child that it exists and isn't bad at least helps prevent a buildup of homophobia. Doing this won't in turn change a child if you aren't actively encouraging that they become gay themselves but shows that those that are are still human and shouldn't be hated.

 

[101flyboy]

heterosexuality nor homosexuality shouldnt be taught to young children. The mechanics of sex should be clearly talked about and the child should be made sure that they understand how it works. Teaching kids about SEX itself is of course a heterosexual model, but thats incidental because actual procreational sex (which is usually the kid's question "where do babies come from?") is heterosexual. Talking to a nine year (who at that point does not have sexual desires in the same way an adult does) about any sexual orientation during the discussion about how babies are made could be extremely confusing. So i dont think kids should be explicitly taught hetero- or homosexuality. Theyll figure it out once they have the basics

I don't really agree with you, because the fact is, by the time they are..............13, if you essentially teach them nothing, they will be ignorant, and ignorant kids make ignorant decisions, or will be confused and not understand what they are seeing, thinking and feeling. If you are going to bring up the mom+dad=sex=babies, yeah, that's a start. But that can't be the finish either, because that's not really even the basics of the mechanics of sex. That's just saying that people have sex to make babies. There are a lot of other questions kids will ask after this, why do people have sex, what do people do when the have babies. Instead of keeping kids in the dark they need to be taught in responsible ways the realities of things so they will be educated in the future.

 

[101flyboy]

no
theyll learn about it some other way
hell im 14 and i think i might be bi

Which is NOT good. Kids should learn about it from their parents or someone they can trust will give them appropriate advice. I mean, you need to maybe talk to a youth LGBT councilor on the computer, and discuss your feelings. Or join a teen LGBT group. Because just going through your early years not understand who and what you are, will end up negatively in the long run.

 

[The Hairminator]

Psst... The Swedish point of view isn't all that different...

They've got homophobes and racists over there too. Linguistic quirks don't make a country more accepting.

We ARE rather liberal about most things, though. For example, two of our ministers are openly homosexual. We're close to the top on both Social and Gender equality indexes as well.

 

[spartandude]

Psst... The Swedish point of view isn't all that different...

They've got homophobes and racists over there too. Linguistic quirks don't make a country more accepting.

We ARE rather liberal about most things, though. For example, two of our ministers are openly homosexual. We're close to the top on both Social and Gender equality indexes as well.

yh the swedes may have racists and homophobes but the swedes are much more accepting and have a much more eaqual society than any other country i can think of

 

[101flyboy]

I'm going to have to say no. Not that I'm against it, but it seems to me like it would overcomplicate an already complicated explanation. That, and it probably would result in other parents complaining if the information spread through the schools.

It shouldn't be hidden from the children, of course, but the focus should be on the heterosexual side, as it's the most relevant at the time.

EDIT: I mean that in that the question being answered is more likely "where do babies come from?" rather than "who has sex?"

Babies come from sex. You can't separate sex and babies. And it's not complicated to tell kids "some men like men, some women like women." If others complain, tell them that there are bad people out there, but remember to respect everyone and treat people the way you want to be treated. It's not as if gay is all about sex or you have to be completely in depth on the entire situation.

 

[101flyboy]

When dealing with kids it's best to keep things as simple as possible

"Love can occur between a man and a woman, but also between a man and another man or a woman and another women. Only men and women can have children through sex, though but that doesn't mean that the feelings of homosexual are any less real or strange than the ones between heterosexual men and women. People are different, and it's okay to be different because we are all a bit different from eachother in some way or another. So I want you to bear this in mind if you meet a boy who loves other boys instead of loving girls, because even if you might not love boys like he does, he's not any less of a person than you are, just different from you. The same way you are different from him when you like blue shirts more than green shirts.

Love can also occur between a man and an animal, or a woman and an animal, or a man, a woman, an alien and an animal. It's also possible that you have a desire to express your love using cream, other food, whips, poo, tinfoil, handcuffs, rapelay, domination etc. You are free to express your love in any way possible........

Yeah this sounds beautiful...

We teach kids in our society about social norms, we dont tell them about every freakin possibility there is with everything.

Translation: We should teach our kids to be straight, as that is the BEST AND ACCEPTABLE option.

 

[bobknowsall]

Psst... The Swedish point of view isn't all that different...

They've got homophobes and racists over there too. Linguistic quirks don't make a country more accepting.

We ARE rather liberal about most things, though. For example, two of our ministers are openly homosexual. We're close to the top on both Social and Gender equality indexes as well.

And my home country's going to have a gay President. Go figure.

My problem is with the views you're expressing. I'm still waiting for you to support those assertions you made about gender and sexuality.

 

[bobknowsall]

Psst... The Swedish point of view isn't all that different...

They've got homophobes and racists over there too. Linguistic quirks don't make a country more accepting.

We ARE rather liberal about most things, though. For example, two of our ministers are openly homosexual. We're close to the top on both Social and Gender equality indexes as well.

yh the swedes may have racists and homophobes but the swedes are much more accepting and have a much more eaqual society than any other country i can think of

But... My point still stands. The Swedes are also capable of homophobia and racism, despite their commonly-used words having discriminatory undertones.

So we're clear on that.

 

[The Hairminator]

Psst... The Swedish point of view isn't all that different...

They've got homophobes and racists over there too. Linguistic quirks don't make a country more accepting.

We ARE rather liberal about most things, though. For example, two of our ministers are openly homosexual. We're close to the top on both Social and Gender equality indexes as well.

And my home country's going to have a gay President. Go figure.

My problem is with the views you're expressing. I'm still waiting for you to support those assertions you made about gender and sexuality.

You're getting me very wrong here. I do not mind homosexual people AT ALL. In fact, the sexuality of someone (unless I intend to romance the person in question) is completely irrelevant to me.

And the index refers to the gap between the genders- not equal treatment of homosexuals, although I believe we are far ahead of most countries on that front as well.

EDIT: What country, by the way? I think Iceland beat you to it.

 

[bobknowsall]

Psst... The Swedish point of view isn't all that different...

They've got homophobes and racists over there too. Linguistic quirks don't make a country more accepting.

We ARE rather liberal about most things, though. For example, two of our ministers are openly homosexual. We're close to the top on both Social and Gender equality indexes as well.

And my home country's going to have a gay President. Go figure.

My problem is with the views you're expressing. I'm still waiting for you to support those assertions you made about gender and sexuality.

You're getting me very wrong here. I do not mind homosexual people AT ALL. In fact, the sexuality of someone (unless I intend to romance the person in question) is completely irrelevant to me.

And the index refers to the gap between the genders- not equal treatment of homosexuals, although I believe we are far ahead of most countries on that front as well.

EDIT: What country, by the way? I think Iceland beat you to it.

No, I don't think I'm misinterpreting. Go back through the last few pages, you'll see I called you out over assertions about "insecurity". That's what I'm referring to.

It's Ireland. Wasn't aware it was a competition, mind.

 

[Thespian]

It's Ireland. Wasn't aware it was a competition, mind.

Whoa, whoa, we're going to have a gay president? :O

God, I am so out of touch with politics >_<

 

[The Hairminator]

No, I don't think I'm misinterpreting. Go back through the last few pages, you'll see I called you out over assertions about "insecurity". That's what I'm referring to.

It's Ireland. Wasn't aware it was a competition, mind.

Take a joke, man! Though the line "And my home country's going to have a gay President. Go figure." kind of made me wonder if that wasn't how you saw it.

Also, to that I'm just gonna reply that you can go read what I wrote in reply to some of the others in the herd of the people who disagreed with me. It's a few pages back.

 

[bobknowsall]

It's Ireland. Wasn't aware it was a competition, mind.

Whoa, whoa, we're going to have a gay president? :O

God, I am so out of touch with politics >_<

Yep, David Norris. He's a Joycean scholar, too. Firm favourite for every party bar Fianna Fail.

 

[101flyboy]

Then again how would you know what the child might encounter? For instance, what happens if one of the classmates gets exposed as being gay without anyone seeing it coming? How do kids usually react to that when they have only been forcefed with the heterosexual norms and values all their life? With acceptance and tolerance? (I doubt it)

Like I said, they would bring it up on their own eventually, if they heard a kid being accused of being gay (and this was their first experience of homosexuality) then I doubt they would join in the laughing and finger pointing, they would just ask the valid question of 'what's a gay?' (this would be like me calling you a xtopalotakettle and having everyone start laughing at you without really knowing what the hell that is).

'What if one of the classmates is exposed as being gay?', in other words, what if a rumour gets spread and someone gets picked on for it. Excuse me for shooting your point down like a balloon here but that could be applied to anything, not just sexuality (in fact, targeting one's sexuality is an easy way to trigger our insecurities but more on this later), what you are asking to prevent our kids from doing is actually called bullying, this can be aimed at anyone for any reason (even gay kids, if there is such a thing as a gay child, can be bullies).

I got bullied a lot because I was nerdy, a loner, somewhat overweight and hated sports, I never got any white knight crusaders rushing to my aid, no equality or tolerance for me, just my parents trying in vain to get the teachers to actually fucking do something about it.

For victims of homophobic bullying there are organisations, awareness raisers, advertising campaigns, celebrities who speak out against it, fund raisers and other such things to aid young people who get hassle because of one small detail about them, all I got was cold comfort from the empty promise of the teachers maybe dedicating some time to it perhaps if they feel like it (it's still bullying and abuse, the difference is what's done about it).

'How do kids react when they've only been forcefed with the hetrosexual norms and values all their life?', this little number made me laugh a little because it almost sounds like you're trying to imply that being hetrosexual is somehow morally inferior or linked to prejudice, what exactly are 'hetrosexual norms and values'? Does our sexuality somehow define who we are morally? Isn't that something that the desire for equality was trying to disprove?

"Love can occur between a man and a woman, but also between a man and another man or a woman and another women. Only men and women can have children through sex, though but that doesn't mean that the feelings of homosexual are any less real or strange than the ones between heterosexual men and women. People are different, and it's okay to be different because we are all a bit different from eachother in some way or another. So I want you to bear this in mind if you meet a boy who loves other boys instead of loving girls, because even if you might not love boys like he does, he's not any less of a person than you are, just different from you. The same way you are different from him when you like blue shirts more than green shirts.

You want others to accept that you like blue shirts and not get teased or made fun of because you do, right? Then it's not hard to understand that a boy who likes boys more than he likes girls would want to be able to like what he likes without getting teased because of it, don't you agree?"

Pretty simple and clear cut explanation and one that a kid at a young age would eat up pretty easily.

So exactly what is it that you fear would "complicate" matters so much?

You said earlier that you can't tell what a child will encounter or when so what's to say that they will understand or even accept that if you tell them it?

My understanding, acceptance and tolerance of homosexuals stemmed from personal experience talking to people and from my own personal view of everyone just being people, not because my parents sat me down and gave me a lecture on how I should approach sexuality.

Sexuality is a very deep and complicated subject, there are people who devote their entire lives to trying to understand and explain it. Naturally this results in a lot of people who are insecure about their sexuality or get confused or doubtful about who or what they truely are, it's not just like picking a favourite colour, it's much bigger and more meaningful than that (for some people it shapes their interaction with people or even their entire lives) so trying to get a child to understand the real meaning and impact behind someone being gay is quite a large undertaking (hell, adults often can't quite get it, hence we have the whole problem of homophobia in the first place).

What you should be doing isn't to teach kids about how to deal with gays or bis but how to deal with people, if you're doing it right then the whole issue of sexuality shouldn't even cross their mind.

EDIT: I also liked how you neglected to comment on my third paragraph, you know, the one where I mentioned how statistics show that acceptance and tolerance of homosexuality is at an all time high and most people are supportive of the homosexual community and their efforts towards obtaining equality.

If a gay kid is being bullied, which MOST ARE, than MOST OF THE TIME, other kids bully also. Because kids are followers, and are desperate for approval. If you don't teach your kids about gay anything, their first experiences will most likely be in school with gay kids being made fun of, or TV, computer etc. And they will formulate their own views. And that is the problem. You hide the truth from your kids, they'll figure it out somewhere somehow, and you will have lost control of the situation.

Trying to trivialize anti-gay bullying is not acceptable, and yes, that's what your doing with the "everyone gets bullied you ain't special" and the "you have tons of LGBT groups." That dismissive attitude is the HEART of the problem. Gay/lesbian teens are gay/lesbian. Don't even GO THERE and say "small thing." No-one chooses their sexuality, and sexuality is an immutable inherent part of who someone is as a person. Most gay/lesbian teens are NOT ACCEPTED by their school system, classmates, and many times, their own parents. You don't have to be in the closet for being a nerd. There are other people who are openly nerdy. Most of the time, there are ZERO out gay people for a gay teen to find strength in. And there is no way they have the ability to look up to an out gay adult, because they don't even understand their sexuality or reject it, because they've been told they are bad or have the feeling everyone hates gay. So, let us not pretend the situation isn't dire, because it is dire, and has been dire forever.

It's true, there are heterosexual norms and values. That isn't offensive or attacking heterosexuals, it's a fact of life. That homosexual persons are inundated with heterosexuality their entire life. And that heterosexuals are in control of everything, whereas homosexuality is "not normal" or not on the same plane as heterosexuality. It's called heteronormality. You don't even recognize it, because you're straight. I'm not gay and I recognize it. People are taught that there is only one option, straight. Thus, all other options are incorrect options. That is the basis of the entire issue at hand, here, and why kids need to understand, no, gay is a legitimate option.

Gay acceptance comes from education. Not just "personal experiences." Education in general. You educate a person on the realities of a situation, and that is what they will learn to understand. Hiding everything gay from them is doing a disservice. That's silently teaching kids that gay isn't appropriate, and should be hidden. If you want to promote gay acceptance, sitting on your hands isn't going to make it happen.

If it were as simple as saying "just teach kids about people" then there wouldn't be this debate going on. It's not that easy, but teaching kids about the reality that some men like men and some women like women, is very easy. Just because A LOT OF HETEROSEXUALS ARE INSECURE AND UNCOMFORTABLE WITH HOMOSEXUALITY doesn't mean that it's justified they keep it secret. Absolutely not, that's indoctrinating, forcing their discomfort to affect their parenting. That's bad.

Homophobia is extremely real, and gay acceptance has increased a bit, but as this thread shows, heterosexism is alive and well. We have a long way to go to see REAL change, and that can only happen if enlightened individuals take the time to see that it happens.

 

[bobknowsall]

No, I don't think I'm misinterpreting. Go back through the last few pages, you'll see I called you out over assertions about "insecurity". That's what I'm referring to.

It's Ireland. Wasn't aware it was a competition, mind.

Take a joke, man! Though the line "And my home country's going to have a gay President. Go figure." kind of made me wonder if that wasn't how you saw it.

Also, to that I'm just gonna reply that you can go read what I wrote in reply to some of the others in the herd of the people who disagreed with me. It's a few pages back.

Nah, that's just me being snippy and critical. Nothing personal, you understand.

Yeah, I'll not have you repeating yourself. I'll check those posts out.

 

[101flyboy]

No I wouldnt. See hetrosexuality, is pretty much the whole "where do babies come from" thing, telling her about homosexualit would be "well that man/woman likes having sex with men/women because he/she thinks its fun". I would tell the kid to answer the question about sex, but if you say sex is something people do for fun, well it might encourage the kid, hich is bad. They will learn sex is fun at a safe age, 7 is not a safe age. Hope I explained properly.

Oh. People are gay because they just like to have fun indiscriminate sex. Interesting.

 

[Thespian]

Yep, David Norris. He's a Joycean scholar, too. Firm favourite for every party bar Fianna Fail.

Ah, I actually do know that guy. He took part in a debate in Trinity College a while ago, I believe, and I've watched out for his name ever since. He actually took part in a debate about whether or not homosexual people should have the right to marry, and he took the opposing side just to prove that he could debate about anything and still make an awesome speech.

Wow, I've gone horrendously off topic now. Apologies.