The Big Picture: Continuity Wars

[UsefulPlayer 1]

I felt like I was being hit with a nerd attack everytime you brought up Mario. Like super proving a point.

Continuity discussions are definitely the nerdiest thing. Arguments and reasonings about worlds that don't exist....

That said, I do that all the time. With myself. I can't take talking about it to other people. Because it would be too nerdy.

 

[CPunchMaster]

People thought they would use EU stories... Oh my...

I said the other day with a fan that I wouldn't be surprised if they just took the names of EU characters and rewrote the characters in whatever way they wish. But I guess we'll have to wait and find out.

Personally, I've compartmentalized my interest in Star Wars a long time ago. Original trilogy, sans Ewoks, and the two KotOR games.

 

[Dukeoftacos]

So either here or in Intermission could you expand on your interpretation of the Mario Bros. continuity. I've been a big fan of yours for a few years now and still re watch a lot of your videos of things you are really passionate about because that is, in my opinion, when you are at your best and most entertaining.

 

[Jennacide]

1. They'll probably still pull a bunch of the Extended Universe "favorites" (I use that dispargingly) like Mara Jade in the new movies.

2. The Mario canon discussion bits had me in stitches.

 

[GrimHeaper]

If you are wondering where the shyguys went the yoshi's probably ate them.

 

[templar1138a]

See, whenever I see mention of concern over continuity with the expanded universe in these new films, I just think three words:

Death Star's origin.

 

[faefrost]

Mario 1, he's tripping on some mushrooms. Mario 2, it's a dream. Mario 3, the game starts with a curtain rising. Conclusion, Mario makes a play based on all his trippy visions. Super Mario World, every area is named after a food, ergo Mario has the munchies.

Do I want the Sequel Trilogy to be an adaptation of EU stories? No, that's silly. I want a new story, not a rehash of one I could buy from Del Rey. On the other hand, I also believe it would be pretty bad to ride roughshod over the entire existence of the EU. Sure, it isn't all award winning literature, but there is some good stuff in there, and I would hate for the new trilogy to pretty much say that none of the characters in those stories exist at all.

Incidentally, the timing of these movies is eerily in sync with the current progression of the post-RotJ EU fiction. The Fate of the Jedi series ends up at about 40 years after the Emperor takes his swan dive into a reactor core(or whatever that was), and by the time Ep VII comes out it will have been about 32 years since RotJ hit theaters. If Ep VII took place a couple years after that storyline you would have a Skywalker just coming out his teens, a Solo on the Jedi Council, and another Solo preteen on whom the balance of the Force may turn. Not to mention the Empire has just had its first general election, there are at least two different sects of Sith out there somewhere, and the Galactic Alliance(formerly the New Republic) is reeling from a catastrophe on Coruscant.

I could think of several possible stories one could tell with that cast and setting.

They have to ride rough shod over pretty much the entirety of the post RotJ EU stories. It's pure math and accounting and aging. There is NO other option. It all gets thrown in the scrap heap.

Here is the problem

Fans of the Star Wars Movies = 2+ BILLION Human beings. These people are familiar with Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Darth Vader, Chewbacca, etc etc etc.

Fans of secondary animated materials, ie The Clone Wars = 10+ Million. These are people (and young primary desired consumers) Who are well versed with the stories of Captain Rex, Asoka Tano, the 501st during the Clone Wars etc. Not a bad fan base as a starting point for anything new. Plus the entirety of this story takes place between movies 2 and 3, so does not require any knowlege past the third prequel. Solid still usable backstory and characters, to a point.

Now comes the 800lb Gorilla in the room that no one is talking about. Fans of the EU novels and printed stories. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 250,000 (at best, and even then only trending that high for the older stories like the Zahn stuff). (OK OK Maybe a bit more for the three Thrawn books only). At best estimate, maybe, just maybe some of these might peak close to a million. But the typical production run for the novels is 1 or 2 hundred thousand, if that. Heck Dark Horse would be thrilled to get anywhere near those numbers for the comics.

Now add to that the shear volume of material in those EU books that would occur in the 30 years between when we last saw our primary cast, and what the current age of your primary character actors now is. There is no possible way to compress any of that information to make it viable for use on screen. Certainly not without pissing off the 2 billion movie fans. Three words to illustrate the problem. "Death of Chewbacca". "Oh by the way fans, we callously killed off one of your favorite characters 10 years ago as a publicity stunt in a book that less than 1% of you even knew the existence of." And if you think that's bad, try explaining something like the stupidity that is the Yuuzhan Vong to your Uncle Louie who waited in line for 6 hours the summer of '77.

So when faced with the choice between pissing off maybe a hundred thousand fanatic nerds, or pissing off over a billion fans who wish not to be betrayed or confused, well Disney's gonna hold themselves a good old fashioned book burning. They simply cannot base any of the story around needed background knowledge and backstory that only 10's of thousands of fans actually know.

The best the EU fans can hope for is to maybe get some cameo's of some well liked characters. Much as they did in the Prequels. I would not rule out seeing or having some reference to Thrawn. I would not rule out some cameo of Coran Horn or Red Squadron. Mara Jade will not be seen. As much as a cool hot redhead would work well on screen, the whole "Married to Luke Skywalker and mother of his kids" thing pretty much stops that cold.

 

[Okysho]

Informative AND hilarious, great job Bob. I was never one to really buy that much into the star wars extended universe and so the canon brought through that doesn't really hold any water for me.

 

[daxterx2005]

I demand a big picture about the Mario franchise.
Its been a long time coming.

*They have never been to Brooklyn.

 

[Gatx]

I kind of like seeing people's bubbles burst so I'm okay with this.

I thought the Clone Wars cartoon was writing over a lot of EU canon anyway. And it's not like this is the first time this has happened. The prequels undid a lot of EU material that existed up to that point.

If you read through the extensive discussion of canon on Wookiepedia [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon], it's clear that through the whole history of the franchise, whatever happened in the live-action films is canon, and any other media is generally accepted as canon until Lucasfilm decides it isn't.

Lucasfilm has the right to mine whatever ideas they like from EU canon, and they probably will use a couple. But adopt that byzantine web wholesale? Not likely.

Sort of. For example they kind of messed with the Dathomir Witches, but on the other hand the Witches don't exist at all in the films, only in the books/comics, so it's also an EU thing that's gotten "upgraded" into the more normal continuity so to speak. Same with things like yellow and black as a lightsaber colors and clone commandos.

 

[Redd the Sock]

I've figured they wouldn't adapt any EU material, but at the same time I expect they won't go out of their way to contridict anything either. Star Wars is already something of a continuity mess with the Clone Wars series, the office origin of Boba Fett, and introduction of Marvel comics elements they'd tried to forget about, another hastily patch job of continuity rationalization won't change much. Until they actively contradict something important (resurrect Chewbaca or something) I'm sure fans will try and make it all work.

There's a lot of ifs for something we don't know when is going to be set, or even what characters they'll use. Avoiding the EU makes sense if you have your own fanfic futures (or pasts) you want to bring to the big screen, but if we go to new characters, there's almost no harm whatsoever to throwaway allusions to characters and EU stories. It could even sell some books. This is one of those things I really don't think they should sit on and let fans stew about. As much hype as they want, they probably should have at least had a presentable premise for us before announcing episode 7. At least then, we'd know what to expect and could deal with the fallout instead of arguing "will they / won't they, should they / shouldn't they".

 

[Norix596]

I really don't get this obsession with continuity in general -- who cares how the different Zeldas or Marios are related and what Dark Knight Rises has to do with Batman and Robin? I would like to think that each story can be self contained without having to necessary be 100% connected to specific events from the other installments.

 

[RJ 17]

I bet this has already been said in the 4 pages of comments but....

Bob, you've got to do an episode where you just wax philosophic on Mario. That was way too entertaining.

 

[PinkiePyro]

Haha, loved it. When you think about it, Super Mario Bros. continuity is a heck of a lot more interesting than Zelda continuity.

I will only agree ot that seeing as mario's is still debatable where as wiht LoZ we have the Hyrule Historia

 

[Strazdas]

This episode would have been completely perfect if it didnt have any mario in it.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

Ok,
as a long time fan of EU books (The Truce at Bakura is in my top 5 books I re-read to death pile) I agree that some of it can, at times be silly (an ex-imperial admeral becoming leader of the GA, c'mon, really?!), at times, undermine its own mythology (are jedi telephathic or not, make up your mind EU writers!) and often just gets to complex for its own good (One day I will understand the Legacy of the Force series' plot). BUT! Sometimes it just tells really excellent stories staring characters that you can get really invested in.
Is it rediculous that I hold Han and Leia's marriage as an example of how to do it right? Actually no, because a group of writers over the years have poured their own interpritation of what Han and Leia's relationship is all about creating this wonderful narrative. That's good characterisation, even if it's got 'Star Wars' on the cover.
Will I be sad that teenage Ben Skywalker, adult Jaina Solo and Master Saba Sabatyne won't show up in the new films, yes, because I love those characters but it doesn't stop them existing!
As an aside, the Fate of the Jedi series is Star Wars at its best, it manages to strip away most of the over-complex plotting, get back to the characters and use a glaxay far, far away to explore ideas of selfishness vs. selflessness, good vs. evil, moral relativeism, farther/son relationships and everything inbetween. Sure, it's EU but I dare anyone to tell me that its not well-written and isn't fun. Afterall, Twilight is badly written and people love that story.

With any luck someone's going into this new project with an idea to explore or a story to tell other than just 'let's make another Star Wars film' because that's when things are rubbish.

What I don't want to see is disney feeling like they have to throw us a bone and just bring in a character for the sake of fan service, that would be stupid. (On a serious note, is this thing going to be live-action?)

Yeah, Daala becoming the Chief of State was...stretching it, to say the least. This is the same woman who went around and bombed from orbit the home world of Admiral Ackbar. I could never swallow that so many worlds would be willing to forgive and forget what she did. This is a lady who ran a terrorist campaign against civilian targets and was feared whenever her name was mentioned by citizens.

Anyway, I was never expecting them to follow the storylines of any of the books. Harrison, Carrie, and Mark are far too old (and haven't exactly aged well) to renew their roles for those books. As cool as it would be to see, say, the Thrawn Trilogy (because that's the one everyone likes to hold up) made into a movie, the only way that would work would be if it was animated. Because recasting Han Solo, Princess Leia, and Luke Skywalker would most likely cause riots. Although Star Trek did pull it off...
Still, I really don't want to start keeping track of two timelines. The care that each writer takes to connect their stories and characters to other books is very impressive to me. Just reading Mercy Kill closed a storyline that I've been wondering about ever since I finished the original Wraith Squadron books. So, what I would like them to do, although I doubt they will, is set these new movies AFTER the latest Star Wars book (Crucible I believe is the next one). Have Jaina, Ben, Tahiri, Allana, and all the other children be the main characters. This way you have tons backstory to draw on, but you can still tell all-new stories. Jaina can just mention what happened to her brothers and that can be a driving force for her character. If people really want to know what the Vong war is that she's talking about, they can go look it up or read the books.
This is also a great way to make it so the original cast can return and reprise their roles. Han and Leia showing up as old people now makes sense because the movie is about their children and grandchildren. Mark Hamill said that he too feels that the next set of movies should be about the next generation.
So that's what I'd like to see Disney do. Use the EU as a base and build off of it. Will this actually happen? Probably not, but I can hope.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Wonder Woman's origin has changed to make sense and she might be stronger than Superman now thanks to her god powers.
Superman no longer works for the Planet and is no longer obsessed with Lois Lane and is no longer a boy scout
Supergirl doesn't seem to give a damn about the people on a planet she just got to...and it works.
Superboy is less Superman-like and slightly less awful than before.
Justice League replaced Martian Manhunter with Cyborg and it's better off for it.
JLA has a new cast
Red Lanterns can now think and speak properly.
Hawkman's armor is reactive now and awakens when he calls it...which is awesome.
Aquaman is badass and retained some of what made him awesome in Flashpoint
The JSA are no longer overshadowed by the JL, as Bman,Superman,and WW are all dead on Earth 2.
The Huntress of Earth 2 is now the only Huntress.
Powergirl has a new suit and it's terrible...just like her character now.
Some of the Teen Titans have changed. Wonder Girl is no longer a WW clone and has a better back story.

The ones in bold are really the only two I haven't liked. Wonder Woman's ongoing has been a good read, but I still feel some fundamental point of her existence was missed when her origin was changed from being carved of clay by her mother and then empowered by Athena, Hera, Aphrodite and Artemis (among others) for all her abilities. I mean change is good and all but you cannot GET any more cliche in Greek myth than 'Fathered by Zues's famously busy Penis' if you tried.

As for Cyborg, well, I just like Martian Manhunter more, so that's a petty gripe

As for the rest, I'm pretty on board, especially Supergirl: her book has been one of my favorites of the New52.

 

[kburns10]

Mario is great and all, but the Sega kid in me made me zone out at the end there..

 

[Sotanaht]

Mario does not have canon. It was never intended to have canon. Any apparent relationship between separate Mario games or other properties is purely coincidental.

 

[Polarity27]

I'm primarily an EU fan, and I'm actually optimistic about this move. I've always thought Lucas' inflexible, unyielding, conservative Christian-inspired, and frankly idiotic ideas about absolute good (except for how it really isn't) vs. absolute evil (except for how it sometimes isn't) and that you can only be Light or Dark have unfairly hamstrung the EU. Every time some writer has managed to sneak some complexity in there, it gets retconned out later. (I will never, NEVER forgive the "Vergere was really a Sith" retcon. EVER.)

Take one of my favorite bits of the EU, the NJO. I loved the NJO because it created an enemy that wasn't, for once, the Sith, because it forced alliances of the most unlikely people, for everything about "Traitor" and its marvelous Force-philosophy complexity, for letting some of the non-Force using characters shine, for actually showing Princess Leia as a kickass diplomat, for the way Jacen found to win without killing (something you'd think the Jedi would be better at than they generally are), for showing a war as a nasty, gritty, awful mess instead of a few seconds of cheering and medal-winning (something KOTOR also excelled at), for painting many of the enemy as sympathetic while *still having them be part of the enemy* (in the '90s it seemed like every time you'd get an Imperial protagonist, they'd defect), and for showing how you can have epic action without the kindergarten morality. None of that list is about the Vong specifically, or the specific events of the NJO. If they found a way to give me some of the same kinds of things in a completely different plot, I'd be all over that. I honestly can't wait to see what the franchise can accomplish without Lucas clipping its wings.