The Big Picture: Correctitude

[SamElliot'sMustache]

I'll say flat out bigotry is what society needs more of right now, people who are willing to flat out ignore political correctness and what's nice, focus on problems like a laser, and work to correct them even if it involves being mean. Honestly I think political correctness perpetuates problems and actually does more damage to the people it sets out to protect than it helps them... largely because it tells them that things that aren't okay are just fine.

Up until this point, I disagreed with some of the things you said, but could find common ground with your arguments, but this...this is indefensible.

First of all, bigotry and "ignoring political correctness" does not "focus on problems like a laser." In fact, if anything, it clouds the real issues. Take the so-called "War on Terror," for instance, which has really been America's bloodlust against Muslims. People in this country have played into Osama bin Laden's hands by turning it into a religious war. In our haste to fight back at these "Arabs" that killed our citizens, despite our complicity in the creation of their mindset (government support of dictators, propping up Afghani rebels during the Soviet invasion, only to abandon them after the war ravaged most of their country, etc.), and proceed to persecute people who "look" like they are Muslim, act angry or fearful when we see actual Muslims do benign things like pray towards Mecca, or even claim that we should just "nuke the entire Middle East," a quote I've heard several times from people of various social backgrounds. It's not helpful, it offer no insight, and in fact makes we, the people easier to manipulate by the powers that be by having us fight each other rather than the corrupt systems that want power and money. I have problems with certain elements of Islam (mostly how it's practiced in certain regions of the Middle East), but I'm not going to hate every single Muslim that I see and claim that "they are all the same" just because of those problems (why, if I were to do that to a white Christian without having heard a word they said or seen their actions, everyone would be pointing out all the numerous ways they could be different).

Despite the protestations of a lot of people, "political correctness" is not this pervasive, all-threatening entity that's driving us to ignore the problem (anyone who thinks it is hasn't been watching the news, since we let a lot of incorrect statements like "All terrorists are Muslims" go unchallenged). Is it sometimes really stupid? Yes, but the "anti-PC" movement is a lot dumber (Larry the Cable Guy titled a chapter in his hack book "David Cross and the PC Police," despite Cross being about as un-PC as modern comedians get) and way more destructive to society, as what they are really doing is goading the dumb into hating minorities so that they can be sold their own racism back to them.

 

[mattrod288]

You're a libertarian and I'm not, so I usually groan when you go into politics. I was pleasantly surprised to hear you give the correct opinion on this issue.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

There are phrases that have changed in this day and age that can offend and that is fine - like getting rid of the Golliwog dolls or the dogs name in Huck Finn. Those are understandable. Now the PC stuff i can not stand is changing things for the sake of it eg a race connection that was never there. For instance changing Baa Baa Black Sheep, to Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep. Thats retarded and i do not know one person that saw that nursary rhyme as having any race connections, some could say calling it a rainbow sheep might now see it given a homosexual meaning? Another instance was some councils in the UK wouldn't have a nativity scene for christmas as its un-PC and could offend Muslims - even though i don't think any muslims have ever been offended by christmas and probably enjoy the lights and decorations as much as christians enjoy the decorations from muslim celebrations. Its the people that change word useage over a perceived insult that no one ever thought insulting. Problem is everything can be seen as insulting to certain group of people and if you get offended by something then tough - you can't keep everyone happy and change everything to ensure every group of people on this planet isnt offended by something. Words change there meaning daily, some black people use the word ****** to mean something positive even though its offensive for white people to use it in the same way. Also the word gay started off to mean happy and now is a word for homosexual. Yes, i believe words that are offensive should be changed but lets not go crazy about it.

Yeah, pretty much this...

I do agree that a lot of the time people just use the anti-PC banner to just go too far, however, I don't know what it's like in America but there's plenty of PC stuff in the UK that just gets on my tits. For example, about 5-6 years ago there was this new thing about how we have to call Black/Asian/Eastern European/Arab people all "Ethnic Minorities" (thankfully that seems to have died down). Now is it just me, or does that seem even MORE insulting? For one thing you're just drawing attention to their status as a minority when it's not needed, and for another you're cramming them all under the same banner rather than appreciating their diversity. Fuck. That. I have black friends and when I have to point them out to anybody I call them black because it is a valid aspect of their appearance, and it is also easy to say.

 

[pffh]

Why is that offensive and this

Spoiler

isn't?

Because that's not offensive, it's tacky

I just grabbed the first picture I found but my point still stands. Why is a dark african girl in a skimpy stereoptypical outfit more offensive then a blond viking girl in a skimpy stereotypical outfit?

 

[tkioz]

What's wrong with Chairman? Why do we need to change it to the clunky unnatural sounding Chairperson for example? Yeah I get the actual chair might be a woman, but woman and women have man and men in them, so big bloody deal. Let it be a language hold over like calling a judge "your honour"

Oh another that really irks me, if the flight attendant thing, there were already perfectly acceptable English words for those jobs, Steward and Stewardess, what the hell was wrong with them? And while I'm on the subject of jobs, you're not an auto repair technician, you're a mechanic, there are perfectly good words that people refuse to use for stupid reasons.

Things like actress/actor or stewardess/steward imply that there is a difference between the two roles, when there isn't. Also, it implies that the feminine term is lesser, as suffixes like 'ess' or 'ette' are also used to describe miniturisations (Cigar>cigarette). English is inherently sexist and whilst I wouldn't really call anyone out on it, it makes sense to change it. You wouldn't dream of calling anyone a 'Lady doctor' these days, so why is 'male nurse' acceptable?

On the subject of chairman, you can just say Chair.

What's wrong with gender specific terms? So they might have started off meaning something else, but so what, let it freaking go.

And no, I wouldn't dreaming of calling the most recent female doctor I've had dealings with a "Lady Doctor" because that would imply I've seen her act like ladies, not a stuck up cranky prig. There is nothing wrong with Gentlemen and Lady as terms, those are things one should aspire too.

 

[Serenegoose]

So much love, Moviebob. So much.

 

[Emergent System]

Who's "they." Leopard fur bikinis are hot and all but they're sure the hell not part of any African culture I ever heard of.

The people who take the time to complain about pictures like that. I dubt they know much more about their own culture than I know about it either.

 

[Tanis]

Well, no one said that racism is reserved for white people only. You have every right to be offended when they insult you based on your race, but it doesn't justify you using racial terms against them. You simply lower yourself to their level.

True, however that's not the point.

I should have that 'right' to say n***** or s**** without censoring them on the risk of being ban or labeled a racist.
I don't see folks on my forums or IRL getting warnings or looks using slurs like 'Gringo' or 'cracker' or 'honky'.

Before anyone can claim we're all equal in good we have to be equal in bad.

You want equal pay for equal work?
THAT'S GREAT AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN THAT WAY FROM THE START!
However, if you get preggers you don't get any maturity leave - unless the partners get it as well.
(I use the word 'partners' because I think it's just dandy if it's a lesbian couple)
All's fair, right?


Also:
What is the deal with these stupid hyphenated terns for people?
African-American, Chinese-American, Mexican-American, ect...ect...ect

I don't see people referring to whites as Euro-American or British-American or Irish-American or Italian-American or Serbian-American or Russian-American or German-American.


AlsoX2:
Why is it a Mexican/Latino can say s/he has 'brown pride' and talk about how great it is to be brown but if I do the same with white pride the 'Safe-Zone Police' come after me?


Huh...doesn't seem fair and equal to me...unless we're talking Fox News "fair and balanced" then I get it.
;P

 

[AceCalhoon]

I've been trying to avoid this whole argument for a while now... The terrible arguments, the ad hominem attacks, and so on.

Anyway, the basic premise here is that sometimes jerks use anti-political correctness as a defense, and therefore political incorrectness is always a cover for bigotry and is a lame attempt to return to the days of yore when inequality was embraced as a way of life.

Please.

So, the disclaimer I shouldn't need: I absolutely agree that in some cases people use political incorrectness as a defense for being mean or saying things that shouldn't be excusable in the 21st century. Yes, making a fried chicken joke about the current president is bad.

But political correctness does certainly exist as a negative force. It happens when our "inclusive" language creates arbitrary barriers, or when it injects malice where none is intended.

So yes, I agree that making a fried chicken joke about the president is tasteless. But what about comparing the president to a monkey in caricature form? That stirred up a boatload of people claiming that it was "politically incorrect" due to "racial undertones," despite the fact that we just got done with president "Curious George" who was portrayed in monkey form virtually everywhere.

Resident Evil 5 is the perfect example of this, in that it is virtually a shot-for-shot remake of Resident Evil 4. And yet, RE4 was fine while RE5 was heavily criticized as racist.

Of the three screenshots of RE5 you showed while condemning it, I could easily find equivalents to two of them:

Anachronisms: http://projectumbrella.net/files/imagecache/preview/images/3426monks_copy.jpg

Infected face: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fGYWQs2WgM&feature=player_detailpage#t=89s or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAyklNWQVkU&feature=player_detailpage#t=135s

I didn't bother looking for a similar shot to the bikini picture, mostly because I didn't want to go down that road in Google.

For another example, compare reactions (on both sides) to the casting of Heimdall in Thor to the reactions on both sides to the casting of Aang in The Last Windbender.

So, is "politically incorrect" an excuse for any kind of language whatsoever? Certainly not. But it is certainly a destructive force that has the potentially to do more harm than good. At its worst it builds barriers between people, and serves to create resentment and enmity where otherwise there would be none.

Or to put it another way... Political correctness is a useful tool for a polite society, but only when it serves to move us forward.

 

[robinkom]

snip

I forgot I wasn't on Facebook and kept trying to look for the "Like" button. You had so much to say and not a word was wasted, bravo. I completely agree and I dare say you presented a much better perspective of the issue than MovieBob did.

I especially wanted to point out the statement about changing a long-established character's ethnicity out of political correctness. I absolutely despise this act. For the love of God, it's not even a racist thing for me. Look at Nick Fury appearing in the recent Marvel films... it's Samuel L. Jackson. Granted, I really like Samuel L. Jackson a lot, he's one of my favorite actors... but NICK FURY IS NOT BLACK! When they do this it permeates into the fan-base. You get fans that are black playing the "race card" on someone like me (who is Middle-Eastern, mind you) when I make such a statement. They only do this to white characters though, as if they feel they need to balance the ethnicity levels in their cast of characters. Okay fine, what if I played the same game then? What if I want Gambit to be an Arab? They'd never do it in a million years. You want more ethnically diverse characters present in comic books, movies, and TV? Make them up. Don't change those already established.

 

[zombied00d]

P.S: "Gringo" is not a racial slur on par with the N-Word: it just means "white person" while the other is a hateful, disgusting term. That is all.

I would lean more towards the concept that current usage has made it such far more so than its "original usage" does. But the truth of it is this: words have only the meaning that we the listeners attach to them.

The whole idea behind changing the way that people talk, by banning or otherwise dis-incentivizing use of words such as fag or darky or whatever is that there's an underlying desire to change the patterns of THOUGHT associated with the usage of those words, not so much the words themselves.

And that my friend is censorship. Period end of story, that's it.

If you must change someone's mind, do so by virtue of being correct through irreproachable reason and unassailable logic, not by attempting to defend something as ephemeral as feelings.

 

[brodie21]

i always thought of political correctness as things like taking the n word out of huckleberry finn. annoying things like that. but do we have to be nice to EVERYBODY?

 

[Ca3zar416]

[/quote]
I wouldn't make the broad statement if it didn't apply to ALL religion. [/quote]

First background so you know where I am coming from. I'm atheist and not the biggest fan of a number of things religious groups have done over the years. So you're saying the bad things of religion apply to things like Shinto, Confucianism, and Buddhism? They aren't even a focus on worshiping in groups the way Christianity and western religions tend to be. They are all about self reflection and not being jerks. It's not about asking to be forgiven for sins or belief in a single god. You have to improve yourself as a person.

 

[Blind Sight]

I do agree with some of the points, but not all political correctness is just 'being nice', sometimes it DOES exist to surpress the speech of certain individuals. For example, I mentioned this a long time ago on these forums, but last year Ann Coulter was coming to my university. I was actually looking forward to it, not because I'm a fan of hers, but because I wanted to get in there and tear her a new one in the Q&A period. Anyway, a bunch of students got together and started protesting, declaring her discussions as 'hate speech' and 'politically incorrect' (which my god can be applied too broadly).

They protested outside of the building, and began to do some very questionable things after awhile. Flipping over tables, pulling fire alarms, threatening people collecting tickets and generally just blocking the door. Now, this is a university, and I expect that I should have the ability to challenge beliefs in Coulter's in a forum. But no, these students wanted to completely eliminate her event, despite not knowing what she would even talk about. 'Being nice' is not threatening ticket collectors because they are working for an event you dislike. Eventually the event was cancelled.

What's the true, mature response to people like Coulter? To challenge them in a debate and delegitimize their position. Now Coulter looks like the victim and gained sympathy, further helping her along. I'd rather have my racists/sexists/etc. screaming their opinions loud and proud, so we can look at them and realize they're idiots. Political correctness does nothing to solve the underlying problem, it just covers it up. These people still have 'politically incorrect' views, they're just not vocal about it. And it terrifies me that they could end up in positions of political power without people knowing.

But maybe I'm just some horrible, sexist, racist, xenophobic jerk like Bob notes.

 

[370999]

That's akin to saying "You are free to take X's property" and then unleashing the police upon them, it's a very different use of free. Wilders is on trial, that's not criticism

Oh, that's right, he is, isn't he, as of just last year? For calling for the banning of the Koran among other things. Well, having thus tried to crush the free speech of others he doesn't get any sympathy from me on free speech grounds.

If I was to rape a woman does that mean that it is right that I be raped? People are allowe dcall for whatever Batshit insane thing they want however taking away that right, which is what you seem to be suggesting, is completely wrong. Free Speech is a very important cornerstone of western societies and it should not be destroyed.

 

[Sylocat]

Finally, finally, finally, someone puts to words what I've been saying for eons.

Not bad, but I don't remember the resident evil 5 racism scandal being quite like how you portray it. I'm pretty sure the complaints were "whitey killing blacks" and not "misuse of tribal imagery" But hey, I could be wrong.

Edit: Before the MovieBob defense force comes to crucify me, here's a quote from a group of the complainer's since the original article has been taken down.
http://gamepolitics.com/2007/08/01/african-womens-blog-critical-of-resident-evil-5-trailer

I agree with this guy.

The guys that made a fuss before the game even came out where actually just complaining about the whole mighty-whitey-kills-the-negros thing. I'd say the tribal zombies that we all saw after the game came out where a little bit racist though.

IIRC, Bob leapt in to defend the game before it came out, and when he saw the tribal zombies after the game was released, THEN he made a second video raking Capcom over the coals for it, so he kind of agrees.

 

[tyriless]

The "N" Word is potent do to the history of its use. A slang of the word Negro, it was applied to African Americans. I am not sure if it was always meant to be belittling, but it is certainly used almost exclusively by people who think they are inferior, particularly Southerners (but not exclusively). Blacks where called that when they where slaves, when they where lynched, when they told to go to the back of the bus, when the police dogs where sicked on them, and when they tried to go to unsegregated schools. It is the language used by people who oppressed them, thus it is a word of oppression. When invoked, the history of the use of that word is invoked too. It is the approval of all those year of slavery and oppression.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

What's wrong with Chairman? Why do we need to change it to the clunky unnatural sounding Chairperson for example? Yeah I get the actual chair might be a woman, but woman and women have man and men in them, so big bloody deal. Let it be a language hold over like calling a judge "your honour"

Oh another that really irks me, if the flight attendant thing, there were already perfectly acceptable English words for those jobs, Steward and Stewardess, what the hell was wrong with them? And while I'm on the subject of jobs, you're not an auto repair technician, you're a mechanic, there are perfectly good words that people refuse to use for stupid reasons.

Things like actress/actor or stewardess/steward imply that there is a difference between the two roles, when there isn't. Also, it implies that the feminine term is lesser, as suffixes like 'ess' or 'ette' are also used to describe miniturisations (Cigar>cigarette). English is inherently sexist and whilst I wouldn't really call anyone out on it, it makes sense to change it. You wouldn't dream of calling anyone a 'Lady doctor' these days, so why is 'male nurse' acceptable?

On the subject of chairman, you can just say Chair.

What's wrong with gender specific terms? So they might have started off meaning something else, but so what, let it freaking go.

And no, I wouldn't dreaming of calling the most recent female doctor I've had dealings with a "Lady Doctor" because that would imply I've seen her act like ladies, not a stuck up cranky prig. There is nothing wrong with Gentlemen and Lady as terms, those are things one should aspire too.

You're missing the point. Making a distinction over gender is as ridiculous as making a distinction over race. They do their job in the same way, to the same standard. By giving them different terms you're saying there's a difference, is wrong.

'Lady Doctor' is a term that older people tend to use, and for the same reasons I just said, it's wrong. It implies there's something abnormal about a woman being a doctor, like it's the 1950's or something.

 

[craddoke]

Amen. I was just reading up on the aftermath of Penny Arcade's dickwolves strip, and this video perfectly captures the essence of that brouhaha. To paraphrase the Golden Rule: Don't be a dick (or dickwolf, as the case may be).

 

[tkioz]

What's wrong with Chairman? Why do we need to change it to the clunky unnatural sounding Chairperson for example? Yeah I get the actual chair might be a woman, but woman and women have man and men in them, so big bloody deal. Let it be a language hold over like calling a judge "your honour"

Oh another that really irks me, if the flight attendant thing, there were already perfectly acceptable English words for those jobs, Steward and Stewardess, what the hell was wrong with them? And while I'm on the subject of jobs, you're not an auto repair technician, you're a mechanic, there are perfectly good words that people refuse to use for stupid reasons.

Things like actress/actor or stewardess/steward imply that there is a difference between the two roles, when there isn't. Also, it implies that the feminine term is lesser, as suffixes like 'ess' or 'ette' are also used to describe miniturisations (Cigar>cigarette). English is inherently sexist and whilst I wouldn't really call anyone out on it, it makes sense to change it. You wouldn't dream of calling anyone a 'Lady doctor' these days, so why is 'male nurse' acceptable?

On the subject of chairman, you can just say Chair.

What's wrong with gender specific terms? So they might have started off meaning something else, but so what, let it freaking go.

And no, I wouldn't dreaming of calling the most recent female doctor I've had dealings with a "Lady Doctor" because that would imply I've seen her act like ladies, not a stuck up cranky prig. There is nothing wrong with Gentlemen and Lady as terms, those are things one should aspire too.

You're missing the point. Making a distinction over gender is as ridiculous as making a distinction over race. They do their job in the same way, to the same standard. By giving them different terms you're saying there's a difference, is wrong.

'Lady Doctor' is a term that older people tend to use, and for the same reasons I just said, it's wrong. It implies there's something abnormal about a woman being a doctor, like it's the 1950's or something.

okay by your logic we shouldn't use the terms male, female, man, woman, boy, girl, etc. etc.

After all we're all humans right?

/sarcasm.